Beer For My Horses

[Farm Boy]

Tak, are you actually arguing that I am wrong? Do you actually think there is less than a 100% chance that the executed have been deterred from ever committing another crime after their execution?

I think there is barely any difference at all, an insignificant difference, between the deterrent effect of lifelong imprisonment and the death penalty. I think that the cost of even attempting to do executions properly and with due legal process is such that were those funds reallocated to programs that show more promise in deterring crime we'd have more overall deterrence without than with capital punishment in the system. I think that if we streamlined the death penalty to be cheaper than we'd get no significantly increased deterrent effect before or between the triggers of life imprisonment and execution. What we would get is more dead people mistakenly convicted, God have mercy on our souls.

 

[MobBoss]

I think there is barely any difference at all, an insignificant difference, between the deterrent effect of lifelong imprisonment and the death penalty. I think that the cost of even attempting to do executions properly and with due legal process is such that were those funds reallocated to programs that show more promise in deterring crime we'd have more overall deterrence without than with capital punishment in the system. I think that if we streamlined the death penalty to be cheaper than we'd get no significantly increased deterrent effect before or between the triggers of life imprisonment and execution. What we would get is more dead people mistakenly convicted, God have mercy on our souls.

But there is also the fact that modern forensic science and DNA identification is helping make the process far less prone to error.

 

[Perfection]

Executions are a vestige of an outdated barbaric conception of justice that ought be routed from civilized society.

Granting the state the right to end a person's life in absence of imminent danger is unnecessary and dangerous.

I especially don't care for the song, which calls for the celebration of the killing of "bad boys" instead of serious reflection on gravity of their actions.

 

[MobBoss]

There is always imminent danger from someone willing to commit murder.

Or are you simply ok with the potential of them killing other inmates or possibly prison guards?

And I say it again...there are indeed people in this world that will never, ever reflect on the gravity of their actions. They simply exist for the opportunity to do them over and over again.

 

[Farm Boy]

But there is also the fact that modern forensic science and DNA identification is helping make the process far less prone to error.

Even taken in full faith and credit that we can reduce the number of "oopsies" to zero with appropriate effort it remains a costly and ineffective way of deterring crime with resources better spent elsewhere. From a Christian perspective it's abhorrent unless the New Testament is eschewed for the old. Unless we believe we simply are incapable of holding people in prison for life without them escaping capital punishment is a lose on all fronts.

 

[Perfection]

There is always imminent danger from someone willing to commit murder.

Or are you simply ok with the potential of them killing other inmates or possibly prison guards?

Yep, we're smart enough to make the risk from highly violent offenders quite small. There isn't an imminent danger.

And I say it again...there are indeed people in this world that will never, ever reflect on the gravity of their actions. They simply exist for the opportunity to do them over and over again.

I'm calling out the vigilantes for celebrating their perverted justice in lieu of serious reflection of the fact that they just killed a bunch of folks. You misread my post.

 

[Borachio]

What do you think a criminal who finds himself about to be arrested and be sentenced to capital punishment is more likely to do about the situation?

Ooh, ooh, ooh. I know this one.

Is it that he'll be more willing to shoot more people in order to try and evade capture?

(It's a long time since I last heard that argument advanced. Is it still relevant?)

 

[Farm Boy]

Ooh, ooh, ooh. I know this one.

Is it that he'll be more willing to shoot more people in order to try and evade capture?

(It's a long time since I last heard that argument advanced. Is it still relevant?)

The last time I heard anything really along those lines was that better enforcement and investigation makes the rarer type of rapist, the street/stranger/stalker type, more likely to kill and conceal his victims. I haven't dug for any stats on it but the person who brought it up is wicked smart and in a related field. Not sure if she was musing on a theory or speaking from authority though. If true, that would seem to speak against the actual effectiveness of capital punishment seeing as it would mean that when assessing the risk of very long prison sentences the sort of criminal we hope to deter will choose to take actions to reduce that risk that they know puts them into the execution branch of punishment.

 

[JollyRoger]

Tak, are you actually arguing that I am wrong? Do you actually think there is less than a 100% chance that the executed have been deterred from ever committing another crime after their execution?

I'm thinking you are cross dressing punishment and retribution in the miniskirt of specific deterrence.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

"There is always imminent danger from someone willing to commit murder."

So obviously for public safety we need to round up every supporter of the death penalty immediately.

 

[Loppan Torkel]

I'm thinking you are cross dressing punishment and retribution in the miniskirt of specific deterrence.

No Jesus joke

 

[Takhisis]

Tak, are you actually arguing that I am wrong? Do you actually think there is less than a 100% chance that the executed have been deterred from ever committing another crime after their execution?

Please reread my posts and stop using strawman arguments.

There is always imminent danger from someone willing to commit murder.

No, there isn't. I recommend starting by reading Günter Strattenberg. There are many circumstances that lead to killing that simply can't be replicated. Since everyone is a potential killer, shouldn't we exterminate the human race to prevent any more murders from ever taking place?

Or are you simply ok with the potential of them killing other inmates or possibly prison guards?

Who says they will kill?

And I say it again...there are indeed people in this world that will never, ever reflect on the gravity of their actions. They simply exist for the opportunity to do them over and over again.

But those are generally in the minority. And they deserve special treatment. But as long as we still do not legally consider them animals, we cannot simply cull them at gunpoint.

 

[MobBoss]

Even taken in full faith and credit that we can reduce the number of "oopsies" to zero with appropriate effort it remains a costly and ineffective way of deterring crime with resources better spent elsewhere. From a Christian perspective it's abhorrent unless the New Testament is eschewed for the old. Unless we believe we simply are incapable of holding people in prison for life without them escaping capital punishment is a lose on all fronts.

Entirely different topic (re: Christianity and the death penalty), but I agree with your 'oopsies' comment.

Yep, we're smart enough to make the risk from highly violent offenders quite small. There isn't an imminent danger.

Inmates get killed or greviously wounded in prison fairly regularly. Last I checked, they were people too.

I'm calling out the vigilantes for celebrating their perverted justice in lieu of serious reflection of the fact that they just killed a bunch of folks. You misread my post.

Fair enough.

"There is always imminent danger from someone willing to commit murder."

So obviously for public safety we need to round up every supporter of the death penalty immediately.

Except killing isn't the same as murder. Context matters.

No, there isn't. I recommend starting by reading Günter Strattenberg. There are many circumstances that lead to killing that simply can't be replicated. Since everyone is a potential killer, shouldn't we exterminate the human race to prevent any more murders from ever taking place?

Didn't you just complain about strawman arguments?

Who says they will kill?

The fact that they have already killed someone increases their odds of killing someone else exponentially.

But those are generally in the minority. And they deserve special treatment. But as long as we still do not legally consider them animals, we cannot simply cull them at gunpoint.

And the capital punishment system is anything but 'culling at gunpoint'. There is indeed a process.

 

[NovaKart]

How often are inmates killed or wounded by someone on death row? Aren't they kept under very strict security ?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

How often are inmates killed or wounded by someone on death row? Aren't they kept under very strict security ?

Never say never...but it's pretty much never.

 

[MobBoss]

How often are inmates killed or wounded by someone on death row? Aren't they kept under very strict security ?

Never say never...but it's pretty much never.

Not every murderer gets on death row. Prisoners on death row are effectively in solitary confinement and are more likely to kill themselves as opposed to someone else. But inmates murdering another inmate does indeed occur often enough to be noteworthy. https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=prison+inmate+killed

 

[Flying Pig]

How much difference is that likely to make? Some of these men were sitting in jail for a quarter of a century; even if it only took half as long to go from courtroom to execution chamber, you're still talking facing the same problem in imagining the death penalty as a deterrent.

You're actually less likely to be killed on death row than off it in the USA, going by annual 'murder' rate.

 

[NovaKart]

Not every murderer gets on death row. Prisoners on death row are effectively in solitary confinement and are more likely to kill themselves as opposed to someone else. But inmates murdering another inmate does indeed occur often enough to be noteworthy. https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=prison+inmate+killed

It looked like some people were arguing that one justification for capital punishment was to protect other inmates. If people are able to prevent death row inmates from killing others without actually killing them then it seems like that's not really a good argument.

 

[MobBoss]

It looked like some people were arguing that one justification for capital punishment was to protect other inmates. If people are able to prevent death row inmates from killing others without actually killing them then it seems like that's not really a good argument.

No, the argument was that there will indeed be violent people that murder that will be willing to do it again and again. Not that death row inmates would kill others, but people in prison for murder per se could indeed kill others and they can.

You took it a step further by adding the 'death row' claim - however, if there were no death penalty, such criminals wouldn't be held in virtual solitary on said 'death row' would they?

 

[NovaKart]

No, the argument was that there will indeed be violent people that murder that will be willing to do it again and again. Not that death row inmates would kill others, but people in prison for murder per se could indeed kill others and they can.

You took it a step further by adding the 'death row' claim - however, if there were no death penalty, such criminals wouldn't be held in virtual solitary on said 'death row' would they?

What's the point of bringing that up in the context of a death penalty argument if you're not using that in support of the death penalty?

I suppose they would be in conditions similar to Charles Manson whatever that is. Probably similar to death row but without the death.