Bergs execution was faked by the CIA

[CurtSibling]

Perhaps the CIA know from experience that people will argue the details and not get close to the truth anyway.

They know no-one really cares in the long run.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Stonesfan, yeah it seems amateurish. If it wasnt faked by the CIA, who DID fake it?

@Curt: He's definitely drugged in the first part of the video.

@Ezinky: I'll take your word for it that if you screw around with the resoultion, you can see SOMETHING. However, theres a few frames towards the end of the decapitation, where he's right in front of a light colored wall. If he was actually alive and his head severed, the blood would be shooting out of his neck directly onto the wall. Its not there. No messing with the resolution will make it appear in those frames. I believe that Berg was already long dead when his head was severed. He was killed first, and then the decapitation filmed. This would also explain why he isnt struggling. The shaky camera movement is to simulate action that isnt actually happening.

Guys humor me, just go back and look at the video with these things in mind.

 

[Nico92]

The guys have firstly cut the throat of Nick Berg and then they've cut his head with a machette as if it was a good german leberwurst. So yes, he was dead when they've cut the neck, and the blood has been released at that moment when he was still on the floor.

However, it's true that it's a strange coincidence that such a video pops up in the middle of a torture scandal. I wouldn't be surprised the administration/CIA have organized backup plans in case it's getting messy like releasing a video or arresting Ben Laden. By the way, we are reaching the right time for Ben Laden's capture. I guess it will be made in next weeks.

 

[SeleucusNicator]

I don't know whether to be disgusted or amused at seeing the local Anti-American crowd turn to conspiracy theories on this one.

I just know one thing; I'm not the least bit surprised.

 

[Vanadorn]

DP. I'm not disagreeing with you that the video is and does seem "off" and unbelievable in some places, however, the effeect of the video has accomplished the goal that would most please our current government - it has dragged attention away from abu garhib.

Whether it's 4 bodies being desecrated on a bridge, or a decapitation, or a statue being toppled, the feeling of patriotism and outrage is being fueled. The feeling that "our cause is just" has been fed to the hungry masses, and as ravenous wolves, they've devoured what was fed to them, without questioning where it came from.

Dissenters and analysts come onto the scene too late to affect the mob mindset, and if they protest too much, they are decried as dangerous, unamerican, and crackpots. Let's put it this way - even if the video is "real", it couldn't have come at a better time for GW.

My 2 cents

 

[Little Raven]

I say this as someone who watched the tape, but has no medical training. There is much that is fishy regarding the last days of Nick Berg, but I don't doubt that his unfortunate end was captured on that tape. I know very little about Zaqrawi, other than he seems to have become the new Goldstein. I'm dealing strictly with the question of whether or not a live beheading was captured on that video.

A human head contains 1.5 gallons of blood yet the freshly decapitated head shown in the video is leaking none. Neck artery would squirt a foot long geyser of blood. There is no evidence of that either. Only one answer lends itself here: the video was doctored. Either a portion was clipped out or the beheading never took place as shown, with the possibility of the victim being already dead.

As Pirate pointed out, this is insane. The whole body only has 6 quarts. And as EzInKy mentioned, blood is in fact visible in the video, though the low quality of the copy I watched meant it was relatively difficult to see. As for the lack of "spray," well, I think someone has been watching too many movies. While blood CAN spray, if the initial cut is hard and deep, then a wide enough apature is created that blood can simply flow.

The victim never resisted the killing. Even when on the ground, only one person sufficed to completely subdue N. Berg.

This isn't a big surprise. Consider the following.

• Berg was bound. His legs were tied together in front of him, and his hands tied behind his back. There's only so much you can resist in that position.
• Berg, who evidently did not speak Arabic, was unaware of what was happening until the moment they pounced him. He probably thought they were just screening another propaganda video. By the time he knew different, there was a knife cutting through his neck.
• The first cut probably severed his windpipe and at least one major artery. Under those circumstances, blood flow to the head stops within seconds. Lose of conciousness follows almost immediatly. When listening to his screams, it seems like it takes forever for Berg to die, but in fact he's dead within seconds. Humans are more fragile than we sometimes like to think. A sharp knife at your throat takes you out very fast.

The tape was not a fake. Berg died on that video, executed by members of an Al Queda cell. But that doesn't mean that everything was kosher. Berg's story is a very, very odd one, one that frankly doesn't make a lot of sense. I'm very willing to buy that people on our side of the line either made mistakes or threw him to the wolves. We've done it before.

 

[Nico92]

You've made me watch it again.

Well, I think it hasn't been filmed in one shot. The last image where he holds Nick's head has been filmed later. I think they've simply had difficulties to cut the backbone so it needed more time than expected to cut the whole head.

No, I still think it's a genuine film. However, there's no information about when it has been shot. That's the only thing I'm doubtful about.

 

[samildanach]

Curiosity has gotten the better of me and I downloaded the vid. It is almost certainly fake in my opinion. Nick Bergs expression doesn't change one bit during the entire "execution". I've cut the heads off about a hundred chickens or thereabouts and their bodies jerk around for 5-30 seconds after they have been decapitated Bergs doesn't do that either. Berg was dead before this video was shot.
Propaganda is one thing but messing with some guys dead body for politcal purposes is a bit tasteless. The CIA need to pull their heads from their behinds and do something constructve like find some terrorists and kill them.

 

[luiz]

I don't believe it was the CIA. Furthermore a Pravda link will hardly convince me of anything.

 

[betazed]

I decided I do not want to see the vid initially. But with all this my curiosity is piqued. But I cannot find the vid on the net.

Can anyone provide a link?

 

[JtheJackal]

Well I guess all those experts who watched the video in the media, various governments and others have been trumped over you guys beilieving it's fake

 

[stratego]

I haven't watched the video, and I'm not going to watch it until after Saturday when finals are over, but can someone answer the following questions for me?

1) Was his mouth moving when he screamed?

2) How long was he screaming?

3) Was there an initial reaction by Berg to "pinch" the knife with his neck, either by moving the head or moving his shoulder?

4) What were his killers doing during the execution? (The ones not actually cutting his head)

 

[zurichuk]

I guess the CNN or BBC are the pillars of honesty also?

i guess that's the highly logical 'all cows have 4 legs therefore everything that has 4 legs is a cow' argument you're using there

(and anyway i wouldn't necessarily beilieve everything the BBC or CNN write either, look at the UK national press ie Mirror newspaper as an example)

keep an open mind i say

 

[MrPresident]

Islamic fundamentalist terrorists have the motive, the means, and the willingness to commit this act. They filmed the event and posted it on their website. This is an open-and-shut case.

Why would anyone want to fake this? What is there to be gained? We don't hate the terrorists anymore than we did since we knew they were capable of this before. We don't support the invasion anymore than we did since this wouldn't have happened if we hadn't invaded. We haven't stopped noticing about the abuse of prisoners in Iraq, in fact, more relevations are on there way. I fail to see any advantage gained in faking this beheading.

 

[Little Raven]

I haven't watched the video, and I'm not going to watch it until after Saturday when finals are over, but can someone answer the following questions for me?

I'll try. This is all going from memory, though. I haven't seen the film since it was released, and I only watched it once. None of this is gospel.

1) Was his mouth moving when he screamed?

The camera angle and poor quality of the video make it impossible to tell. You can't really see his mouth at all, plus the compression had screwed up the sound so that it was no longer in sync.

2) How long was he screaming?

He gets out about 4 screams, all very quick. 5 seconds, tops. Actually, though, it's probably closer to 3.

3) Was there an initial reaction by Berg to "pinch" the knife with his neck, either by moving the head or moving his shoulder?

Again, impossible to tell. Berg is sitting quietly in front of the killers while they read their statement, either drugged or simply unaware of what's going on. When the lead guy finally pounces him, his grabs his hair and wrenches Berg to the ground, while at the same time bringing down the knife. There's too much confusion to tell.

4) What were his killers doing during the execution? (The ones not actually cutting his head)

It looked to me like one guy jumped on Berg's legs, but that's just an impression. The rest of the guys simple crowd around chanting Allah Ahkbar! over and over.

 

[Duddha]

What makes me suspicous is not all the specualtion about the video, but the strange, and so far unclear, circumstances of Berg's final weeks and days. Who had him when? I haven't heard a straight anwser.

 

[bigfatron]

Well I'm goijng to shock Selucius as he often has me down as anti-american despite my protestations of innocence.

I reckon this is a genuine event, perhaps stage-managed a little amateurishly, from Bin-Laden's mob.

My reasoning is counter to that of the conspiracy theorists: they suggest that the US administration wants eyes and ears off Abu Graib - fair enough.

But the last thing AQ want is for the US to back off and start treading more gently - they want and need a belligerent, violent occupying force.

You can see this pattern of behaviour from Hamas - when Israel have been embarassed into backing off, they deliberately provoke a violent reaction, setting the agenda and keeping the pressure on. To fail to do so would mean a swing of power back to more moderate Palestinians, the last thing Hamas want.

So also I expect this from AQ - if it ever looks like the US could back off gently AQ will do everything in their power to generate a reaction and grab back some control of the agenda. The fate of this poor man fits that bill perfectly, and such an action is far more credible from AQ than ascribing it to a CIA plot.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Why would anyone want to fake this? What is there to be gained? We don't hate the terrorists anymore than we did since we knew they were capable of this before. We don't support the invasion anymore than we did since this wouldn't have happened if we hadn't invaded. We haven't stopped noticing about the abuse of prisoners in Iraq, in fact, more relevations are on there way. I fail to see any advantage gained in faking this beheading.

It was obviously hastily put together and released by desperate people in Military Intelligence who wanted to deflect attention from the Abu Ghraib inquiries. Some big boys in MI are very nervous no doubt at this moment because THEY know all too well where these various investigations into their activities at Abu Ghraib can lead. I agree that producing this hoax for those reasons is ridiculous, but based on what we know SO FAR, can anyone claim that these folks over at the Pentagon and MI know what thell theyre doing?

@betazed: heres you go, its the first link on the page: (its not bloody at all, looks like a badly shot 'reenactment' of a decapitation, rather than an actual one)

edit 2: Link deleted. I'll PM it to you betazed. (Im assuming that PMing it is allowed?

@Little Raven: theres no way you could slice through someones arteries in his neck and not have blood shoot out and hit that wall thats extremely close to his head. Ok, Im not a doctor either, but I dont think you need a medical degree to know that.

@stratego: Interestingly, he starts shouting long before anyone makes a move for him. Immediately the camera starts jumping around to simulate action. The whole event was clearly shot in several stages, while people got into different poses. Theres no sign of struggling whatsoever. I dont care if youre tied up. If somebody is sawing your head off with a knife, youre going to struggle and it'll take more than a single guy casually holding you down to stop you.

 

[stratego]

Why would anyone want to fake this? What is there to be gained? We don't hate the terrorists anymore than we did since we knew they were capable of this before. We don't support the invasion anymore than we did since this wouldn't have happened if we hadn't invaded. We haven't stopped noticing about the abuse of prisoners in Iraq, in fact, more relevations are on there way. I fail to see any advantage gained in faking this beheading.

I hate the terrorists more after hearing about the beheading.

 

[Enkidu Warrior]

DP, the mods have previously said that they will not allow the posting of links to the video...
EDIT: PM whatever you want.