Doesn't matter if you give them ammo or not, they will just invent stuff anyway.
Best Way To Defeat the Right?
- Thread starter Zardnaar
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Doesn't matter if you give them ammo or not, they will just invent stuff anyway.
Zardnaar
Deity
Democrat voters picked her. Look at Trump the party hierarchy didn't pick him.
Democrat voters gotta own that.
You just have no idea what we're talking about here, huh.
Zardnaar
Deity
Enlighten me then. Ultimately the blame lies with the people that voted. Sure the DNChas their preferences but they can't compel people to vote how they want.
Progressives as you would define them probably make up no more than 15% of the US population and that's probably being generous. And they live in the wrong places.
The party itself is 3 or 4 main factions. The progressive wing got blown out everywhere that wasn't sapphire blue.
I'm sure the loudmouth types like AoC and friends would do great in a primary vs Manchin in WV those voters are yearning for a NYC liberal to come lecture them after all .
Hillary was determined to be the first woman president and given her age, this was her last chance. Apparently, she convinced enough others with money and power it was a slam dunk.
Blaming voters for how the primaries turn out is hilarious, even for you. The candidates are the party's choice. The level of support they get is also dependent in part by the party. The party chose to back Hillary, and later, Biden.
Don't blame voters for a setup that's entirely within the party's control. Much like how the Republicans embraced Trump when it suited them. Or, hell, blame voters if you want. It's your life. It's the wrong attitude and it won't fix anything, but it's your life.
Perhaps! But at that level of money and power it's a reciprocal thing, I think.
Zardnaar
Deity
Did the party pick Hilary or stop Sanders from running? No. They preferred her absolutely but the people voting in the primaries didn't pick Sanders.
Trump wasn't the establishment pick but he won his primaries Sanders couldn't. Left has to take a hard look at itself it's always someone else fault. Thought that was Trump's schick.
As I said there's not enough progressives as Gorbles would define them in the USA and the ones that are fan only win in sapphire blue areas. 2018 pickups were won by centrists maybe left of center for some.
There's not enough hardcore lefties to win anywhere even here in some places you can apply that to the right as well they're in the same boat here.
That doesn't apply to the USA or UK.
RobAnybody
Emperor
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But the voters aren't controlled by the party. I don't get your point here. The D primary voters voted for who they wanted, in both '16 & '20. The R's establishment didn't back Trump, for example, but he won the nomination. It sounds like you think all voters are all mind-controlled & don't actually vote for who they "really" want to win. It honestly doesn't sound much different from Trump's "they stole the election!" rhetoric - I'm struggling to see the difference here.
Zardnaar
Deity
Didn't Sanders do worse in 2020 than 2016?
Narz
keeping it real
In FPTP the liberals need the radicals to win just like the conservatives need the reactionaries. If you're right in your estimate of how many voters are progressive its enough that if they went and formed their own party both that party and the centrist Democrats would be wiped out electorally.
Zardnaar
Deity
We have proportional here but you still have to cater to the center left or right.
Generally it throws up slightly left or right government's that can't execute big ideas they just tinker with the edges. I'm expecting the left to win 2023, lose 2026 regardless of the policies, leaders, or what they actually do or don't do.
Electorate gets bored of the same faces, the accumulating scandals and death by a 1000 cuts. That's what the punters voted for after the bug changes in the 1980's so you won't see that anymore or the big changes of the 30's either.
Not without some big event to shake things up.
The "left" didn't lose. Clinton lost. The centrists and right-wingers (remember, for us in the UK and NZ, both US political parties are right-wing) have to take a good hard look at themselves. But, like you, they seem to prefer blaming leftists.
You don't understand my point anyway, so hey
To be honest, it really doesn't sound like you're interested in the thread here. It's reading like you came here specifically to pick holes in a tangent you haven't actually read fully. I could be wrong, sorry, but I'm putting this out there upfront so it doesn't sit in my head niggling at me (and colouring any possible response).
The voters aren't mind-controlled, no. However, a potential candidate has two hurdles. One is some level of popular support. The other is support of the establishment. I'm talking about the latter problem at the moment.
As an aside, the Republican establishment pivoted to backing Trump (or started to in significant numbers) as soon as the wind starting turning in his favour (that article is from May 2016, well before the actual election of that year, and ahead of the important party conferences in the summer).
Zardnaar
Deity
The "left" didn't lose. Clinton lost. The centrists and right-wingers (remember, for us in the UK and NZ, both US political parties are right-wing) have to take a good hard look at themselves. But, like you, they seem to prefer blaming leftists.
You don't understand my point anyway, so hey
To be honest, it really doesn't sound like you're interested in the thread here. It's reading like you came here specifically to pick holes in a tangent you haven't actually read fully. I could be wrong, sorry, but I'm putting this out there upfront so it doesn't sit in my head niggling at me (and colouring any possible response).
The voters aren't mind-controlled, no. However, a potential candidate has two hurdles. One is some level of popular support. The other is support of the establishment. I'm talking about the latter problem at the moment.
As an aside, the Republican establishment pivoted to backing Trump (or started to in significant numbers) as soon as the wind starting turning in his favour (that article is from May 2016, well before the actual election of that year, and ahead of the important party conferences in the summer).
Wind never turned in Sanders favor though. If it did and the DNC continued down that path that's a big issue.
DNC probably corrupt and useless but they're probably bright that a progressive can't win in the USA. Hell a progressive can't even win the DNC nomination.
Even if the DNC can be blamed for 2016 you can't really claim that in 2020 although they may have switched to Biden once he was the clear frontrunner. At that point it was to late for Sanders.
In your reality how does the left conjure up enough votes in the USA outside the blue states? They can maybe focus in turnout but the GoP beat them there in 2016, Trump defeated himself and offended enough people to turn out there voters plus anyone repuksed by Trump.
The center probably favors the right slightly and they're repulsed by the far left that's true here as well. Here at least they're also repuksed by the far right and it seems that way in the USA as well.
In our terms though they're really picking from several right wing parties Dems would probably still be disadvantaged under proportional voting. Here you pick from slightly right wing to slightly left wing. Slightly right wing party legalized gay marriage for example they're all about the tax cuts and minimizing regulations (generally) though.
Why should I bother answering a question that I have literally no interest in? I'm not the one claiming "the left" can win elections single-handedly in the first place. It's a constant invention of your regardless of (in any thread) what people are talking about. C'mon.
Who could have beaten Trump in 2016?
He was running as an anti-establishment candidate so any of the establishment centrists like Biden would probably have done as badly as Clinton.
Whatever Sanders is its not establishment.
Zardnaar
Deity
Well I've pointed out the problems and disadvantages they have to win.
Even under fptp didn't the conservatives get more votes than labour?
We've provided examples eg Trump that a non establishment candidate can win. DNC can't mind control people.
Zardnaar
Deity
Personally I think Sanders was the better candidate. He was my personal favorite. What I like and what I get are two different things. He didn't win the nomination and did even worse in 2020.
No, a centrist won the nomination with the backing of the party establishment and lost the election.
So much for centrists winning ways.
PhroX
Deity
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I'm not so sure of this. It wouldn't have taken much of a swing to put a democrat in, and Hillary was particularly hated on a personal level after decades of right wing propaganda directed at her. I can easily see a less disliked establishment Democrat candidate scraping a victory.
That's not to say an anti-establishment one couldn't have done better than that but that Hillary suffered from issues beyond simply her being pro-establishment.
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