Best Way To Defeat the Right?

Okay, what would you posit as the structural difficulties that the Left has? The things that are endogenous or latent to the motivation that impede success?
First off, just completely unrelated, but I guess this proves quoting someone with an edit doesn't trigger a forum alert. This isn't me knocking the edit, this is me going "d'oh" because I've sometimes tried to rely on that possibility when quoting someone in after the fact :p

(or maybe it wasn't an edit and it just bugged out. XenForo isn't that much better than vBulletin at times)

Anyhow.

My answer lies in deconstructing yours (sorry). The problem in your analysis is twofold. The first claim is that "they" (whoever they are, be it everyone assigned to our vague grouping or some more particular group) have difficulty triaging, and the example you gave was between something like climate change and outright oppression of a group(s). Multiple things can be prioritised at once. Especially considering a spread of professional talent - some amongst the left are obvious going to be more educated on climate change and what we need to do vs. support networks for the oppressed and foreign relief - however small-scale or relegated to individualistic efforts. It's not about triaging these kinds of problems, or principles - at least at the scale you've provided. They're mostly agreed upon by a vast majority. I'm skipping the anecdote qualifier because that's all each of us have. Like I said to BD earlier, something like "the two-party state in the US is broken" would be a very uncontroversial take that would present no difficulty in triaging r.e. principles.

The second problem with regards to "what do worker collectives have to do with <list of minorities>". It answers itself. The most exploited segments of society have the most to gain from empowerment against that which keeps them down. The only qualifier you include that shifts the context is "future people who live far away". I'm unsure semantically if that's a grouping by itself, or all the groupings are qualified by being far away (and thus unlikely to benefit from something like a local worker's cooperative). Correct any assumption made there, for sure, but to me the reality is that local work comes first. Ironically, what some people parrot at leftists. Leftists, generally-speaking, know this. It's why the DSA has chapters. It's why so many leftist efforts are local, and contextual to the problems any one specific area faces. Okay, some of it is because decentralised efforts make it harder to be shut down, and power protects power (i.e. wouldn't take kindly to people trying to organise a collective, or at a less radical level, even just a union). But a large part of it is because these groups are made up of locals who know the area's problems and want to do something about them.

The actual problems leftists face isn't necessarily agreeing on principles, though the "culture war" nonsense introduces some tension into the mix. Cultural issues are newer, and are generally used by right-wingers (individually) as wedge issues to split leftist (and left-leaning) support into more individualist factions. Thankfully at this point we're seeing it being cyclic (the same propaganda used against gay folks a few decades back being used against trans folk now, for example). Lessons learned on messaging then carry forward to now.

But the real problem - my opinion, etc - is that the power structures that we need to be able to work within to change (as recommended by centrists and right-wingers alike) are at best liberal, and increasingly capitalist to boot. More for the rich, and less for the poor. It's an increasing cycle (born out by data throughout the pandemic, too). Some countries may be centre-left at times, but a lot are overtly conservative (or worse). This is easily demonstrated historically by looking at the actions required to enact significant change, every time it happened. Women's rights. Civil rights. Gay rights. Labour protections. None were achieved without struggle. All were achieved against the current status quo and resisted by the institutions of their time - every time. Conservativism was the status quo in every instance. It's no different with modern progressive politics. Now this is where, in my experience, the rub with liberals, centrists, and so on comes into play. Because they're the most ardent adherents of "work within the system to change it" (that's the type of leftist I am currently, for the record). But admitting the system is broken (yes, I still want to try and work within it to the best of my ability currently, so sue me) means their suggestions are less of a solution than they're presented as, so we get the kind of endless tautologies like Zardnaar helpfully provides (no offense Zard), e.g. "you need votes to win elections". Really?! Wow. Hadn't ever occurred to us ;)

So what we have is, generally, a push for better labour protections, as well as (on the culture axis) better legal protections for oppressed minorities. I've used "axis" a lot, but even that's simplifying it of course. I'm just saying this to point out I'm aware it's more complicated than I'm trying to explain it as. The way these are both often presented by detractors is the "taking away from what <a majority or less-oppressed group> already has". Which doesn't hold up well to scrutiny (someone gaining something doesn't make you lose something, unless someone else is imposing a binary on you both), but it feels good. It's easy to make people fear something, moreso when there's no attempt to explain it. I'm a big fan of demystifying complicated subjects (to the best of my ability), though I recognise that expert knowledge is hard to disseminate in any realistic quantities (similar to your general wants r.e. data and Covid, as a quick aside).

Do leftists, stereotypically, get bogged down in what action is the best action for any specific event, in specific times and places? Absolutely. But so do other political groupings. The far and alt-right have had tons in the past seven years or so alone. This is why it, to me, comes back to the general bias of power structures we see in government (and similar structures). That's how the status quo is kept.
 
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And yet, it was centrists (and right-wingers) in the Democratic Party that decided she was the best candidate. No leftist would've suggested her. The people making those decisions have to own the consequences.
Hard disagree. I voted for her because when it came to her ability to push progress, I believed she would accomplish more than Sanders.
 
Hard disagree. I voted for her because when it came to her ability to push progress, I believed she would accomplish more than Sanders.
I mean, I was talking about people in the Party establishment, not actual voters. Apologies for not making that clear.

EDIT

Though really, my issue was using an absolute. I do try to avoid them because there's always going to be a counterexample (even if I disagree with it, which is likely why I was lazy with the wording).
 
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But the voters aren't controlled by the party. I don't get your point here. The D primary voters voted for who they wanted, in both '16 & '20.
To be honest, it really doesn't sound like you're interested in the thread here. It's reading like you came here specifically to pick holes in a tangent you haven't actually read fully.
I mean, I was talking about people in the Party establishment, not actual voters. Apologies for not making that clear.
To me, it sounds like we completely agree? The party supports a candidate, sure, but the voters vote for who they prefer. Sometimes those align. Sometimes they don't, meaning "the party" doesn't actually control who wins the nomination. I really don't see the difference from what you're saying.
 
A charismatic Hispanic at the top of the Democratic ticket might bring a lot of reluctant voters to the table. They would need a charismatic non Hispanic of the opposite sex as their running mate. Trump is charismatic if you are stupid. Obama is charismatic is you are not stupid.

Damn, just put Oprah at the top of the ticket and someone savvy with government operations as VP.
 
To me, it sounds like we completely agree? The party supports a candidate, sure, but the voters vote for who they prefer. Sometimes those align. Sometimes they don't, meaning "the party" doesn't actually control who wins the nomination. I really don't see the difference from what you're saying.
The Party (either Party) ultimately still decides, is my point. They have the control. Maybe you don't think this is possible, or that it's conspiracy theory territory. For Trump, there are countless stories of how establishment Republicans thought he'd be easier to control. Less volatile, and so on. They chose to align with him.

Sure, it's a hypothetical timeline where they didn't, and we'd never get to see what that looks like, but that's not particularly important to me. What's important is this argument of choice.
 
I mean, I was talking about people in the Party establishment, not actual voters. Apologies for not making that clear.

EDIT

Though really, my issue was using an absolute. I do try to avoid them because there's always going to be a counterexample (even if I disagree with it, which is likely why I was lazy with the wording).
I can’t speak for the DC crowd, but I’m from a “political family” that is, especially in our heyday, pretty deep into the Democratic Party. Right now involvement is pretty third tier, my dad had to get a Covid test because of attending the private gathering of an exposed congressperson.

The most progressive wing of the democratic establishment was not confident in Sanders and remembers Clinton for her big push for single payer healthcare and other progressive projects 30 years ago. We also know she was punished for it by the mainstream and has since both known republicans are the problem but we can only advance so far.

There’s a whole other universe that isn’t twitter + national media. The conclusions of people outside that discourse don’t conform to the expectations inside of it. People who have been working in and with the Democratic Party for a long time but are also the dirty hippy commies that guide the end point were largely more confident in Clinton’s abilities and heart for progress.
 
A charismatic Hispanic at the top of the Democratic ticket might bring a lot of reluctant voters to the table. They would need a charismatic non Hispanic of the opposite sex as their running mate.
Most democrats are not so shallow as to give a **** about someone's color or junk. It was already decided that Biden chose Harris because she's a swarthy female & now her approval is abysmal. Maybe the party should focus on quality rather than ticking some box.
 
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The Party (either Party) ultimately still decides, is my point. They have the control. Maybe you don't think this is possible, or that it's conspiracy theory territory. For Trump, there are countless stories of how establishment Republicans thought he'd be easier to control. Less volatile, and so on. They chose to align with him.
Well, OK, then we do disagree. I just wasn't sure which side of the debate you were coming from. I'm still not. 'Cause you honestly seem to keep contradicting yourself.

I initially thought you were saying "The Party picks the candidate & The People don't matter", then it seemed like you were saying The People's Vote Is What Matters despite The Party (something I agree with, & so thought we agreed), but now I hear read in the above quote you saying The Party chooses The Candidate, even though though The RNC clearly didn't pick Trump.

Truly, you have a dizzying intellect.
 
Most democrats are not so shallow as to give a **** about someone's color or junk. It was already decided that Biden chose Harris because she's a swarthy female & now her approval is abysmal. Maybe the party should focus on quality rather than ticking some box.
While I agree with everything you said, I have one question, with no intentions of a Gotcha or anything like that. Just a legit intellectual question: Did ticking that box get him some extra votes?
 
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The left needs to have a positive vision.
The "left" frequently does. Of course, "positive" can be hard to measure, and easy to twist. It's difficult to present unilateral positives that individuals cannot claim would result in some form of negative for themselves personally.
 
I'm not being arrogant here, those who don't vote are mainly working class people and around the world those people lean left (or at least are amenable to voting left). In the US in the past 20 years more participation has usually lead to better results for democrats. In France polls show that while the general population is almost evenly split between left and right, left wing candidates are struggling in the presidential election poll, which indicates that the non-voting population is leaning left.
To me, it would tend to show that the political platform/discourse of the "political" left is out of sync with this working class, which was historically its bedrock. And also probably a loss of confidence (I'm pretty sure the collapse of the socialist party has been mainly caused by a perception, true or false, that even when you voted "left", you ended up with center-right policies).
 
Higher marginal tax rates would allow people who work to earn and save more easily. It also diversifies the customer base, which means that people are more capable of providing the service they would like to provide.

We have learned through extensive experience that socialized healthcare and socialized medical research fill in gaps and create efficiencies that allow there to be greater outcomes with less spending overall.

Proactive environmental policy means that imposing external mandates on foreign countries can cause greater harm to your trade opponent than is received internally, which allows a coalition to more easily form to protect the Commons.

A system that that prevents the existence of low income property criminals pretty criminals is superior to one that locks them up the map. If only because only because being the victim of low income property crime is traumatic , and it's impossible to police it efficiently efficiently and still maintain respect for the police system.

Decreased tension with minorities means less zero-sum conflict and less perceived inefficient wealth transfer.
 
While I agree with everything you said, I have one question, with no intentions of a Gotcha or anything like that. Just a legit intellectual question: Did ticking that box get him some extra votes?
There's no way to know but I doubt it. Harris was unpopular. Certainly a few people were happy about the pick but I'd suspect more weren't. I held my nose and voted but if I didn't think it would've been close in Florida I wouldn't have.

Why not Sanders? Certainly would've been a move fun pick. Likely some voters would've gotten turned off but he'd have gotten Biden more votes overall (Sanders is orders of magnitude more popular than Harris) and it would've created a more entertaining administration, one that would've gotten more attention to progressive politics even if it would've been stymied.
 
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In my more dismissive moments, I've said to myself, "Oh, just let them secede, already", but of course even that wouldn't be so simple. Honestly, if I could just let the American Right immolate itself without catching the rest of us in the blast radius, I might do it. And if it turned out their ideas actually play out well, then that'd be even better. I wouldn't mind being wrong about some things, if the end result proved to be good for everybody.

I remember years ago watching the US women's soccer team play one of the small Asian countries. I think the final score was 21-0. For the first 7 or 8 goals, I was just laughing, but it actually became kind of interesting to watch, because I was able to see the American women unfurling their strategies almost without any opposition. They were just running their plays as I imagine they must have appeared on the whiteboard. I've had a fantasy for years of somehow allowing people on the Right and people on the Left to just "run the table" for a while. Do whatever they want, in full, without opposition. Just let their ideas play out to their fullest, so we can all see what would happen, particularly in areas that are thought to be relative strengths of the two parties.

There have been some small instances of this, over the years. I remember some time ago, a commentator said that Bobby Jindal did more damage to Louisiana's economy than Hurricane Katrina did. Jindal was a Republican, and many people believe conservative policies would ultimately be better for our country's economy. More recently, I heard a woman in Kansas remarking on the fact that her community's school system was a dumpster fire, and that there was nobody to blame but Republicans "from the local school board, all the way up to the White House", and she was rethinking her devotion to the Republican Party as a result.

Of course, the real fantasy here may be that slavish partisans to the different ideologies wouldn't find some way to blame the other party for their own failings, even if they had total control for a bit. Doesn't matter, it'll never happen anyway.
 
The same thing will happen with lots of countries and reasonable amounts of freedom. Arenas with beneficial policies will attract productive efforts, which means that net migration will show people's implicit preferences. Of course, no country tries a hardcore version of a policy platform, but that's compelling in and of itself.
 
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