Best Way To Defeat the Right?

We've provided examples eg Trump that a non establishment candidate can win. DNC can't mind control people.
Nobody said the DNC could. Again, you're tilting at non-existent windmills.

As for Trump being non-establishment, that matters very little when the establishment turns around and endorses him. Because that's the point I'm making. It's not that the voters vote and poof, President. The establishment matters, and their choice matters. They could've absolutely dragged the 2016 election cycle out longer than they did. They chose not to.
 
The people who think the left can't win whatever they do in US elections because there aren't enough left wing voters are people who are, intentionally or not, missing the point. The massive winner of every US election is "no vote cast". Make people who usually don't vote believe in your politics and you'll win states that are considered unatainable by pundits.
 
The problem should be what we all need to do. From a societal perspective, and from a legislative perspective.
Yeah, that's what I like to focus on.
Upthread, I said that the actual answer was fuzzy. It's a political struggle, which means that allies need to be curated and empowered*. The disinterested need to be swayed to help or get out of the way**. The opponents just literally need to be dominated using whatever metric that matters, ideally with an eye on the long-game***.

In the end, this requires personal sacrifice, the proceeds of which are reinvested in supporting the group. Ideally, the personal sacrifice is most efficient when taken from resources you'd normally give to a political opponent. It cannot be done with just boycotting, the savings from the boycott need to be reinvested.

What people who're perceived as being in the Center need to be doing is (firstly) literally using their wealth proactively to support the causes that they appreciate. We live in this world where we always think that there are people richer than we are that ought be to doing something more, but we commonly forget how overwhelmingly wealthy we are compared to the people we're trying to help. And this is not helped by this culture of 'self-care' that people have, because of its confirmation bias. And (secondly) they need to be using their contacts within the Left and Right to learn the various theories proposed by each, and then learning how to repackage them in order to cross the aisle. This is especially bad today, where everything is strawmanned.

But I create a long post upthread about the structural difficulties those left-of-Center have.

*allies can be black-holes of resources, too, so depending on what you determine to be your cohort of 'natural allies', the resources still need to be husbanded.
** this is where seeking feedback amongst people outside the cohort and then testing that feedback is necessary. And, like it or not, the memetics that are effective are more necessary that the memetics one's more vociferous allies want
***
this means that you need to know which institutional power structure any specific person implicitly adds to, and then win on that field.

So what does it mean when you use it yourself
For 'left', I include as 'necessary' a communalist view of the ownership of property, where the more communalist the view is, the more 'left' someone is. Whereas 'liberal' tends to be an appreciation for the well-being of people, with a broader scope of what's considered the 'in-group' the more liberal someone is. But I also let people self-identify, wherever possible, since obviously the goal is to learn their motivations rather than try to control a language.
 
You sure your use of liberal isn't more entirely about letting people choose who they want to be and how they experience life thier extremely limited time instead of telling them who "we are" and how "we act?"

Conservative thought has a lot of appreciation for the well being of people. So much so that your well being is often more desirable than your free will. See smoking. Tons of left, yet illiberal laws around that. The "liberal" rationalizations of those laws are just that. Rationalizations in order to repackage an action under the lie of an ideological label.
 
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That's true. I tend to put 'conservative' into the camp of people that prefer a specific process over outcome. All of these terms are fuzzy. And, it always depends on how many terms are being included. A 'conservative' in a discussion that includes definitions that are also trying to define 'left' and 'right' will be different from a 'conservative' that's only comparing to 'liberal'.
 
So you just use the word conservative like hide-bound, or stupid and thus unable to determine cause effect?

Doesn't feel right as a takeaway, but that's how that reads from here.
 
Conservative thought has a lot of appreciation for the well being of people.
lols

Double lols for raising smoking. It's a good example of conservative appreciation for the well being of people though, because apparently the only well being that matters is that of the smokers right to smoke, and not anybody else impacted by said smoke.

Yes, restricting smoking is illiberal and therefore bad, I get the point you're making. But we live in a society, so, duh.

But I create a long post upthread about the structural difficulties those left-of-Center have.
For brevity, I guess I simply disagree with them. Or enough of them. Don't really have the time to get into it right now, it's just grating (and this isn't a you problem specifically) to keep seeing "this is what the left needs to do" when the problem is a lot broader in scope and requires solving by a lot more people. For those that agree with the problem as outlined in the OP, naturally :D
For 'left', I include as 'necessary' a communalist view of the ownership of property, where the more communalist the view is, the more 'left' someone is. Whereas 'liberal' tends to be an appreciation for the well-being of people, with a broader scope of what's considered the 'in-group' the more liberal someone is. But I also let people self-identify, wherever possible, since obviously the goal is to learn their motivations rather than try to control a language.
I think this is the large problem, yeah. I'd have to go and do some searching, but the definitions trend to the individual, rather than (ironically) the communal. For example there's a large difference between economic and cultural axes of leftism (where some on the former may be completely trending a different way on the latter). But I appreciate your definition regardless, because I get where your framing comes from better now. Thanks!
 
So you just use the word conservative like hide-bound, or stupid and thus unable to determine cause effect?
It's not 'unable to determine cause and effect', it's preferring specific process to outcome. It's why outcome-based arguments have so much trouble swaying. I mean the very word 'conservative' means 'less likely to allow change'.

I guess I simply disagree with them.
Okay, what would you posit as the structural difficulties that the Left has? The things that are endogenous or latent to the motivation that impede success?
 
If the process is the goal, the process is the outcome. It's a life, not a score, or a tally. No?
 
I dont see why the left and right cant get together on a few major issues, corporate control of the political system is #1 on my list. And dumping Wall St's neocon foreign policy is #2. Ending the war on drugs is third and I also think left and right can figure out a health care system that doesn't cater to corporations.
 
The people who think the left can't win whatever they do in US elections because there aren't enough left wing voters are people who are, intentionally or not, missing the point. The massive winner of every US election is "no vote cast". Make people who usually don't vote believe in your politics and you'll win states that are considered unatainable by pundits.

True but the other side is also doing the same thing. What works in NYC won't work in a purple state let alone a red one.

It's an arrogant assumption the people don't vote actually support you. As 2016 showed a lot don't.
 
I dont see why the left and right cant get together on a few major issues, corporate control of the political system is #1 on my list. And dumping Wall St's neocon foreign policy is #2. Ending the war on drugs is third and I also think left and right can figure out a health care system that doesn't cater to corporations.

Things like that should probably be front and center of anyone's political platform.

The right panders to corporations and the left (not the DNC) doesn't. DNC is compromised which doesn't help but they're also right on some things so go figure.

Corporate influence is a huge problem in US politics.
 
the establishment left and right panders to corporations, the little people across the spectrum dont have the power to defeat that alliance

lesser evil, voting against rather than for, unwillingness to vote 3rd party

Perot and his reform party were a challenge to the system centered around trade, Trump inherited that movement but the merger back into the GOP created a civil war between the Perot movement and establishment GOP who hate Trump. But they have to kiss his arse or keep quiet, thats how strong the anti-establishment right has become. Bernie was the left's anti-establishment nominee and he actually agrees more or less with Trump on trade and immigration.
 
The people who think the left can't win whatever they do in US elections because there aren't enough left wing voters are people who are, intentionally or not, missing the point. The massive winner of every US election is "no vote cast". Make people who usually don't vote believe in your politics and you'll win states that are considered unatainable by pundits.

True but the other side is also doing the same thing. What works in NYC won't work in a purple state let alone a red one.

It's an arrogant assumption the people don't vote actually support you. As 2016 showed a lot don't.

yes well, that depends on whether one considers a no vote as something in between a resounding endorsement of the status quo or a definitive sign of ignorance and alienation...
 
yes well, that depends on whether one considers a no vote as something in between a resounding endorsement of the status quo or a definitive sign of ignorance and alienation...

A no vote is exactly that. Fir whatever reason they don't vote. The right seems to focus on turning out their own supporters, the left doesn't really focus but will rally if there's a very good reason eg Trump.

Rights love of Trump may also bite them in the ass there's the guy who lost the house, senate and presidency.
 
True but the other side is also doing the same thing. What works in NYC won't work in a purple state let alone a red one.

It's an arrogant assumption the people don't vote actually support you. As 2016 showed a lot don't.

I'm not being arrogant here, those who don't vote are mainly working class people and around the world those people lean left (or at least are amenable to voting left). In the US in the past 20 years more participation has usually lead to better results for democrats. In France polls show that while the general population is almost evenly split between left and right, left wing candidates are struggling in the presidential election poll, which indicates that the non-voting population is leaning left.
 
the establishment left and right panders to corporations, the little people across the spectrum dont have the power to defeat that alliance

lesser evil, voting against rather than for, unwillingness to vote 3rd party

Perot and his reform party were a challenge to the system centered around trade, Trump inherited that movement but the merger back into the GOP created a civil war between the Perot movement and establishment GOP who hate Trump. But they have to kiss his arse or keep quiet, thats how strong the anti-establishment right has become. Bernie was the left's anti-establishment nominee and he actually agrees more or less with Trump on trade and immigration.

I'd have considered voting for Perot. Assclown is no Perot.
 
I'm not being arrogant here, those who don't vote are mainly working class people and around the world those people lean left (or at least are amenable to voting left). In the US in the past 20 years more participation has usually lead to better results for democrats. In France polls show that while the general population is almost evenly split between left and right, left wing candidates are struggling in the presidential election poll, which indicates that the non-voting population is leaning left.

A lot of working class people don't vote because they don't give a crap. Claiming they support you is disingenuous and even if they do if they're not voting that still doesn't help.

That Akai varies by country the Conservatives in UK flipped several traditionally red seats.

We have a high virer turnout comparatively and the right still wins half the time roughly.

So unless an overwhelming number of non voters support you that doesn't fix things.

I think that's mostly wishful thinking/smug superiority to convince yourself more people agree with you.

Then you have a double problem of convincing them to turn up and vote for you.
 
I'd have considered voting for Perot. Assclown is no Perot.

no, Perot was an honorable man, but Trump and Pat Buchanan were Perot's potential heirs and while Perot tried to stay out of it he apparently preferred Trump. I suspect Buchanan's social conservatism is why.
 
Only a subset of the non-right platform 'naturally' intersects with the working class voter. There are many things that the left wants that are not obviously wanted by the non-voting working class. This is part of why triage of the 'wants' is required to win the plurality. Either that, or a repackaging of the 'wants' such that people don't mind if they're granted and so then only the entrenched interests become your political opponents. At that, a proper power struggle can happen, which is even more straight-forward.
 
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