Better RoM Discussion: Wonders

[Afforess]

I like it because it succeds in tuning down the Colossus, making it less powerful. Initially I also suggested it as a wealth wonder.

I dislike it because, after deeper consideration, I could see the Colossus acting only in three ways, which I already told:
1) as a gigantic monument, which fascinates foreigners and maybe can give a gold bonus, although in Civ monument provides only culture;
2) as a lighthouse, which gives food per water tiles;
3) and as an entrance for an harbor / yard (ships passed underneath its legs to enter the bay).

Combining these 3 roles, my shot was to give it +1 hammer per water tile and war weariness for your enemies (less than Zeus, so it's not OP).

The Colossus was never used as an entrance to a harbor, that's a myth. However, as a symbol of power, it would enable coastal traders to travel farther unmolested (Who would want to attack merchants from a nation with the power of the Colossus behind them?) and earn them greater trading wealth.

 

[Elucidus]

Because there's a grocer in every corner, a courthouse in every city, a National Epic in (almost) every country, but Moai Statues are unique.

So is wall street, and probably some others.

 

[konradcabral]

The Colossus was never used as an entrance to a harbor, that's a myth.

Are you 100% sure about that?

So is wall street, and probably some others.

If you read my file earlier in this thread, another of my suggestions is making Wall Street a WW as well.

 

[Afforess]

Are you 100% sure about that?

Wikipedia:

The harbor-straddling Colossus was a figment of medieval imaginations based on the dedication text's mention of "over land and sea" twice. Many older illustrations (above) show the statue with one foot on either side of the harbor mouth with ships passing under it: "...the brazen giant of Greek fame, with conquering limbs astride from land to land..." ("The New Colossus", a poem engraved on a bronze plaque and mounted inside the Statue of Liberty in 1903). Shakespeare's Cassius in Julius Caesar (I,ii,136–38) says of Caesar:

Why man, he doth bestride the narrow world
Like a Colossus, and we petty men
Walk under his huge legs and peep about
To find ourselves dishonorable graves
​

Shakespeare alludes to the Colossus also in Troilus and Cressida (V.5) and in Henry IV, Part 1 (V.1).
While these fanciful images feed the misconception, the mechanics of the situation reveal that the Colossus could not have straddled the harbor as described in Lemprière's Classical Dictionary. If the completed statue straddled the harbor, the entire mouth of the harbor would have been effectively closed during the entirety of the construction; nor would the ancient Rhodians have had the means to dredge and re-open the harbor after construction. The statue fell in 224 BC: if it straddled the harbor mouth, it would have entirely blocked the harbor. Also, since the ancients would not have had the ability to remove the entire statue from the harbor, it would not have remained visible on land for the next 800 years, as discussed above. Even neglecting these objections, the statue was made of bronze, and an engineering analysis proved[citation needed] that it could not have been built with its legs apart without collapsing from its own weight. Many researchers have considered alternate positions for the statue which would have made it more feasible for actual construction by the ancients.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

...
We need to diversify the effects, and I will repeat - for better balance we need to boost production. I'm really fed up with 3 cities in which building BASIC infrastructure takes for ever....

There was a mod in Civ 3 that I really liked that had a solution for this problem. It had National Wonders (a minister or vizier) for each of the basic buildings. For example the Minister for Graineries would provide a free grainery in each city. However it cost more to maintain than did 10 or so graneries, meaning it was only useful for large cities. The "Strategic Grain Reserve" by OrionVetran (converted to RoM by me) is a start. It is available very early, due to the biblical story, but is also quite expensive to build.

Perhaps we need something like this for national wonders?

On the Moai - one problem I have is that in Civ 3 sea tiles provided some hammers but in Civ 4 we only have coast and ocean and neither provide hammers.

 

[Killtech]

• +1 Trade Routes for all Coastal Cities
• +50% Trade Route Revenue
• -25% War Weariness
• +1 Happiness from State Religion
• + 4 after research Astronomy

The bonus gold for astronomy is different because when you research Astronomy that's when it goes obsolete. However, it won't stop it from still giving you a boost in revenue from all the other seafaring nations. ?

+1 trade routes is a huge buff though it does only last untill astromy and is restricted to coastal cities... hmm hard to say if the other bonuses that come with it make the new colossus too OB, but i suppose so.

Now, I pose a question to everyone:

Why is the Moai Statues a National Wonder and not a World Wonder?

many civilization of the old builded large statues of their gods/kings.... hmm, ok many civilizations of the old had builded pyramids too... i think there is no clear borderline between what national and world wonders are.

 

[Afforess]

+1 trade routes is a huge buff though it does only last untill astromy and is restricted to coastal cities... hmm hard to say if the other bonuses that come with it make the new colossus too OB, but i suppose so.

Really? I think it's a bit weaker, the +1 on all water tiles is pretty powerful.

 

[Killtech]

Really? I think it's a bit weaker, the +1 on all water tiles is pretty powerful.

bacause it's an early wonder you are probably right. but the longer the game last this changes.

however this national/world wonder debate reminded me on something else i suggested earlier. and it fits quite well into this thred i think.

I thoght about changing the relation between world and national wonders: for every wonder there's a national and a world version. they should like this: at first everyone can only build only the world wonder. after it is completed the building progress of all other civs on this wonder isn't converted to gold but into hammers for the national version instead. the national wonders could be still available to build for a certain time interval. in addition - to make having the first wonder more attractive - the construcor should be allowed to build the national version too.

however this would require some entries like 'ConvertIntoBuildingAfterFirstTimeBuild' for the world wonders and 'BuldableAfterBuildingFinished' prerequisite for the national wonders.

just to make this idea sound more resonable: egyptians were not the only ones who build pyramids: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid

 

[Afforess]

I have no issues with that national wonder - World Wonder conversion idea, I just need YOU to make a list for conversions. I'm not doing such a large project without some help.

 

[Killtech]

I have no issues with that national wonder - World Wonder conversion idea, I just need YOU to make a list for conversions. I'm not doing such a large project without some help.

nor do i want to drag you into such a large thing. but i first intend to check the resonance on that idea and - more important - require some feedback how people would imagine this (among other the boni for national and world versions). after all there's no sense to spent work on something nobody uses.

(there's also the small problem that i'm stuck with my working laptop for now because my main PCs graphical card died some days ago. thus no Civ for me until the next week . at least i still have this forum )

 

[JosEPh_II]

Now a word from the wee folk, the not so Uber player.

I say No to reducing;
Adams Smith (will we need to become Bean counters now? where is the Fun in that?)
Colossus ( Same as above)
Moai Statues (Do you play Archipelago worlds?)
Encyclopedia (it's already been nerfed enough!)
3 G Dam (this just totally kills the race for Power to cities and will slow down empire growth for everyone, AI included) Bad Bad Idea!

Are you trying to make Better RoM actually better or Boring?

Is Better Rom only for the Elite player?

Is it only for the snail player?

If the game doesn't have "Perks" then there is no race/anticipation of trying to achieve that Wonder before anyone else. I see this "balancing theme" as destructive. It is removing the reason to Play, Fun! No to Tedium!

Do I have to be a math major to play now? Maybe I should get out a pad of paper and "count" the cost of every action I take? Carefully measure if it's right to go for Colossus or by pass it? Why struggle to get Adam Smith 1st when it's effects are now minute?

Where/what is the Fun of racing to 3GD before the AI gets there if it's power is diluted ? For that matter if Wonders are continually reduced where's the "Wonder" of striving to get it? It's the race for these Wonders that helps make the game Fun. And if the AI gets there 1st then next time you have to try harder (can you say challenge?!) Are you proposing to throw challenge out too?

My 2 cents. Carry on now.

JosEPh

 

[Afforess]

Now a word from the wee folk, the not so Uber player.

I say No to reducing;
Adams Smith (will we need to become Bean counters now? where is the Fun in that?)

No bean counting. You know about BULL's actual effects, right? It will show you just how much gold you will actually get from it.

Colossus ( Same as above)

Ditto.

Moai Statues (Do you play Archipelago worlds?)

No one has proposed any reasonable alternative, so Moai statues are being left alone.

Encyclopedia (it's already been nerfed enough!)

Really? Everyone agreed that it was really OP.

3 G Dam (this just totally kills the race for Power to cities and will slow down empire growth for everyone, AI included) Bad Bad Idea!

I decided against this one too. No one is changing it.

Are you trying to make Better RoM actually better or Boring?

Is Better Rom only for the Elite player?

Is it only for the snail player?

If the game doesn't have "Perks" then there is no race/anticipation of trying to achieve that Wonder before anyone else. I see this "balancing theme" as destructive. It is removing the reason to Play, Fun! No to Tedium!

Your concerns are noted. However, remember, I never force anything on users. Better RoM will just be another option on the component screen. If you like vanilla RoM, I won't force these changes on you.

Do I have to be a math major to play now? Maybe I should get out a pad of paper and "count" the cost of every action I take? Carefully measure if it's right to go for Colossus or by pass it? Why struggle to get Adam Smith 1st when it's effects are now minute?

Adam Smiths effects, minute? Do you have any idea how big a boost forced trade routes with all players is? With a 10 city empire on a standard map, it could be as high as a 70 increase. I think that you underestimate the changes. And with BULL's actual effects, you will be able to see exactly how big a boost it will be.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

I have to agree with JosEPh_II here, I have never seen the Colossus give much, if any, boost when it was built, maybe after 100 turns or so it does. Similarly Building Adam Smith has not noticeably increased my income, ie a 1-2 digit per turn if I am lucky and I have 11 or more cities.

 

[Afforess]

I have to agree with JosEPh_II here, I have never seen the Colossus give much, if any, boost when it was built, maybe after 100 turns or so it does. Similarly Building Adam Smith has not noticeably increased my income, ie a 1-2 digit per turn if I am lucky and I have 11 or more cities.

I'm not sure I understand. You agree that the suggested changes will be too much effort to figure out? That's what Joseph is complaining about.

As for those wonders, the Colossus has not been altered (not yet anyway), and Adam Smith's trading Co. is WAY Over Powered if you run a specialist economy. And my suggested changes for it line up more historically too.

Joseph II,

I updated BULL's actual effects for my new XML tags & effects. Adam Smith's Co will show how much extra yields you really get, don't worry about the math.

 

[Supercheese]

I updated BULL's actual effects for my new XML tags & effects. Adam Smith's Co will show how much extra yields you really get, don't worry about the math.

I noticed that BULL's actual effects showed you the savings when a building had -maintenance, but does not show the loss of gold when a building has +maintenance... have you fixed this too? It was really bothering me...

 

[szemek77]

Now a word from the wee folk, the not so Uber player.

I understand that sometimes exaggeration is useful if you want to point out
a problem, but c'mon, there are some limits. Starting with such a statement
doesn't help in conducting a REASONABLE discussion.

Are you trying to make Better RoM actually better or Boring?

Boring? It rather a vague expression. Imagine - every single game you run for the same overpowered wonders. Isn't it boring for you? It would be for me.... In my opinion, balancing the game is ESSENTIAL for making this game interesting. Why? For two reasons:

1. The more OP wonders/concepts/ways of playing, the less difficult the game is. AI is simple not able to use some features in the way human players are. When I started to play RoM, I discovered very simple and effective strategy - spawning caravans.... In the result, every fricking game i had 4 or 5 times bigger and stronger empire than any other AI. Is this fun? No, this was BORING.

2. When we remove obvious ways of acting, it urges us to invent new strategies. I remember Leonardo's Workshop in CIV II - just terrific wonder which was giving you free upgrades for your units. I always had numerous caravans ready for building this wonder right after I got proper tech. Was it effective? Yes it was. But boring after couple games....

 

[szemek77]

Nooooo, it's noooootttt...

OK, we came to the wall now You say it is blue, and you really see it this way, and I say it is green, and I'm not going to change my POV.

My guess wouldn't be 95%, but 15%. There are science, religious, production wonders...

Yes, you are right, I went too far. But 15%? Doubt it. Name 5 production wonders,
if you don't mind. Besides, religious is not far away from cultural, IMHO

Of course we need to find alternative to these low-hammer cities, but an mistake / flaw don't justify others.

I remember there was an offshore platform in CIV II. Maybe we need similar building (but coming much earlier in the game) or wonder which would give you 1 at least for the coastal tiles which lay closest to the see shore?

I already started to gather some ideas, I think it can be very good! What I'll need in need is anyone to show / explain me how inflation cost is really calculated now, so I can give my opinions.

Again, thumbs up, and waiting anxiously for your conclusions and suggestions.

 

[konradcabral]

OK, we came to the wall now You say it is blue, and you really see it this way, and I say it is green, and I'm not going to change my POV.

Yeah, I take my defeat. My opinion is clearly a minority about Colossus and Moai. But maybe I'll make it for my own use after 1.60, and make it available to other outlaws like me.

 

[konradcabral]

Here is the inflation calculations in english. The game finds how many turns have passed and divides the turn count by 2. If the game has ended (the player chose to continue after someone won, it uses the amount of turns it took to achieve victory instead). Then, the game looks in the XML for the InflationPercent value in the Civ4GameSpeedInfos.xml. It multiplys the inflation by this. (So that inflation is similar along all game speeds).

Afforess, I'm looking at the inflation % in the financial screen of my game and this formula isn't making sense. I'm playing Epic Speed, so the InflationPercent is 20. It has been passed 594 turns and the inflation is showing 171%. In the Civ4GameSpeedInfos.xml there is InflationOffset, which in Epic is -135. What is this value?

 

[Talin2009]

WMF with it's 2% interest rate is OP, taken fact AI never uses it properly. I usually try to accumulate 200-300k cash to the time it is built, after that its free 5-10k gold every turn ...