darkedone02
The Suggestor
Any news of when the BtS will come out? in December or October or next year of March?
[Beyond the Sword] History In The Making
- Thread starter Grave
- Start date
Brandonazz
Empire Builder
Sometime before Civilization V pehaps? 
I'd love to bash hitler. so no, please dont remove him.
Don't worry... no plans to remove Hitler from the History in the Making!
Brandonazz
Empire Builder
Are you also going to stick in all of the other pretty civilizations and leaders?
Assyria, Hittites and such; not Confederacy, Texas, and California.
You might also want to note, the dual armband graphic was fixed in the newest version of Hitler, you should grab that.
Assyria, Hittites and such; not Confederacy, Texas, and California.
You might also want to note, the dual armband graphic was fixed in the newest version of Hitler, you should grab that.
Well, considering I made the BtS version of The Republic of Texas... you can pretty much be guaranteed it's going to be in there.
I'll have to look into the newest Hitler. I reskinned the one I have myself, because I liked a gray uniform better than brown... but I'll have to see this new one first and see how I like it.
Brandonazz
Empire Builder
Maybe Texas could be a revolter state in America or Spain?
Bastian-Bux
King
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2006
- Messages
- 788
Would it be possible to make the Hitler leader and more importantly, the swastika symbols for Germany a "additional and optional" download?
Because as it is for now, this mod is unplayable to anyone situated in Germany (and probably some other countries as well).
Why? Because anyone falling under german law that DLs your mod as it is now commits a crime. Not a simple offense, but a strongly punishable crime, mind you.
To make your mod safely playable to people situated in Germany you have to do two things:
- remove any name / connection that can be seen as a "glorification of Hitler, the third Reich etc. pp". Easiest way to do so, and one often (and till now successfully) used by the gaming industry is to rename that guy in the german version. Arnold Hiller suits just fine.
- remove all symbols that are outlawed in Germany (and a few other european countries). This includes the Swastika, SS runes and all derivations of those. Plus many others that where abused by the nazis.
As I wasn't able to find a complete list in english, here the german wikipedia entry:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rechtsextreme_Symbole_und_Zeichen#Grafische_Symbole
If you find a "verboten" = forbidden and/or "strafbar" = punishable in the paragraph concerning a given sign, you should try to avoid it in the basic version of your mod.
My suggestion would be to make a basic version of your mod without that leader at all, and without those signs. And offer an optional "patch" for those that must have him. This would help those of us living in countries with stricter laws concerning the nazi history.
Just to say it again: as it is, having your mod, packed or ready to use, on an harddrive in Germany is a punishable crime. You can get sentenced to up to 3 years in jail, or to a fine. We ain't talking about stealing a candybar here guys.
§ 86 Verbreiten von Propagandamitteln verfassungswidriger Organisationen
(1) Wer Propagandamittel
1. einer vom Bundesverfassungsgericht für verfassungswidrig erklärten Partei oder einer Partei oder Vereinigung, von der unanfechtbar festgestellt ist, daß sie Ersatzorganisation einer solchen Partei ist,
2. einer Vereinigung, die unanfechtbar verboten ist, weil sie sich gegen die verfassungsmäßige Ordnung oder gegen den Gedanken der Völkerverständigung richtet, oder von der unanfechtbar festgestellt ist, daß sie Ersatzorganisation einer solchen verbotenen Vereinigung ist,
3. einer Regierung, Vereinigung oder Einrichtung außerhalb des räumlichen Geltungsbereichs dieses Gesetzes, die für die Zwecke einer der in den Nummern 1 und 2 bezeichneten Parteien oder Vereinigungen tätig ist, oder
4. Propagandamittel, die nach ihrem Inhalt dazu bestimmt sind, Bestrebungen einer ehemaligen nationalsozialistischen Organisation fortzusetzen,
im Inland verbreitet oder zur Verbreitung im Inland oder Ausland herstellt, vorrätig hält, einführt oder ausführt oder in Datenspeichern öffentlich zugänglich macht, wird mit Freiheitsstrafe bis zu drei Jahren oder mit Geldstrafe bestraft.
(2) Propagandamittel im Sinne des Absatzes 1 sind nur solche Schriften (§ 11 Abs. 3), deren Inhalt gegen die freiheitliche demokratische Grundordnung oder den Gedanken der Völkerverständigung gerichtet ist.
(3) Absatz 1 gilt nicht, wenn das Propagandamittel oder die Handlung der staatsbürgerlichen Aufklärung, der Abwehr verfassungswidriger Bestrebungen, der Kunst oder der Wissenschaft, der Forschung oder der Lehre, der Berichterstattung über Vorgänge des Zeitgeschehens oder der Geschichte oder ähnlichen Zwecken dient.
(4) Ist die Schuld gering, so kann das Gericht von einer Bestrafung nach dieser Vorschrift absehen.
[Bearbeiten] § 86a Verwenden von Kennzeichen verfassungswidriger Organisationen
(1) Mit Freiheitsstrafe bis zu drei Jahren oder mit Geldstrafe wird bestraft, wer
1. im Inland Kennzeichen einer der in § 86 Abs. 1 Nr. 1, 2 und 4 bezeichneten Parteien oder Vereinigungen verbreitet oder öffentlich, in einer Versammlung oder in von ihm verbreiteten Schriften (§ 11 Abs. 3) verwendet oder
2. Gegenstände, die derartige Kennzeichen darstellen oder enthalten, zur Verbreitung oder Verwendung im Inland oder Ausland in der in Nummer 1 bezeichneten Art und Weise herstellt, vorrätig hält, einführt oder ausführt.
(2) Kennzeichen im Sinne des Absatzes 1 sind namentlich Fahnen, Abzeichen, Uniformstücke, Parolen und Grußformen. Den in Satz 1 genannten Kennzeichen stehen solche gleich, die ihnen zum Verwechseln ähnlich sind.
(3) § 86 Abs. 3 und 4 gilt entsprechend.
Because as it is for now, this mod is unplayable to anyone situated in Germany (and probably some other countries as well).
Why? Because anyone falling under german law that DLs your mod as it is now commits a crime. Not a simple offense, but a strongly punishable crime, mind you.
To make your mod safely playable to people situated in Germany you have to do two things:
- remove any name / connection that can be seen as a "glorification of Hitler, the third Reich etc. pp". Easiest way to do so, and one often (and till now successfully) used by the gaming industry is to rename that guy in the german version. Arnold Hiller suits just fine.
- remove all symbols that are outlawed in Germany (and a few other european countries). This includes the Swastika, SS runes and all derivations of those. Plus many others that where abused by the nazis.
As I wasn't able to find a complete list in english, here the german wikipedia entry:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rechtsextreme_Symbole_und_Zeichen#Grafische_Symbole
If you find a "verboten" = forbidden and/or "strafbar" = punishable in the paragraph concerning a given sign, you should try to avoid it in the basic version of your mod.
My suggestion would be to make a basic version of your mod without that leader at all, and without those signs. And offer an optional "patch" for those that must have him. This would help those of us living in countries with stricter laws concerning the nazi history.
Just to say it again: as it is, having your mod, packed or ready to use, on an harddrive in Germany is a punishable crime. You can get sentenced to up to 3 years in jail, or to a fine. We ain't talking about stealing a candybar here guys.
§ 86 Verbreiten von Propagandamitteln verfassungswidriger Organisationen
(1) Wer Propagandamittel
1. einer vom Bundesverfassungsgericht für verfassungswidrig erklärten Partei oder einer Partei oder Vereinigung, von der unanfechtbar festgestellt ist, daß sie Ersatzorganisation einer solchen Partei ist,
2. einer Vereinigung, die unanfechtbar verboten ist, weil sie sich gegen die verfassungsmäßige Ordnung oder gegen den Gedanken der Völkerverständigung richtet, oder von der unanfechtbar festgestellt ist, daß sie Ersatzorganisation einer solchen verbotenen Vereinigung ist,
3. einer Regierung, Vereinigung oder Einrichtung außerhalb des räumlichen Geltungsbereichs dieses Gesetzes, die für die Zwecke einer der in den Nummern 1 und 2 bezeichneten Parteien oder Vereinigungen tätig ist, oder
4. Propagandamittel, die nach ihrem Inhalt dazu bestimmt sind, Bestrebungen einer ehemaligen nationalsozialistischen Organisation fortzusetzen,
im Inland verbreitet oder zur Verbreitung im Inland oder Ausland herstellt, vorrätig hält, einführt oder ausführt oder in Datenspeichern öffentlich zugänglich macht, wird mit Freiheitsstrafe bis zu drei Jahren oder mit Geldstrafe bestraft.
(2) Propagandamittel im Sinne des Absatzes 1 sind nur solche Schriften (§ 11 Abs. 3), deren Inhalt gegen die freiheitliche demokratische Grundordnung oder den Gedanken der Völkerverständigung gerichtet ist.
(3) Absatz 1 gilt nicht, wenn das Propagandamittel oder die Handlung der staatsbürgerlichen Aufklärung, der Abwehr verfassungswidriger Bestrebungen, der Kunst oder der Wissenschaft, der Forschung oder der Lehre, der Berichterstattung über Vorgänge des Zeitgeschehens oder der Geschichte oder ähnlichen Zwecken dient.
(4) Ist die Schuld gering, so kann das Gericht von einer Bestrafung nach dieser Vorschrift absehen.
[Bearbeiten] § 86a Verwenden von Kennzeichen verfassungswidriger Organisationen
(1) Mit Freiheitsstrafe bis zu drei Jahren oder mit Geldstrafe wird bestraft, wer
1. im Inland Kennzeichen einer der in § 86 Abs. 1 Nr. 1, 2 und 4 bezeichneten Parteien oder Vereinigungen verbreitet oder öffentlich, in einer Versammlung oder in von ihm verbreiteten Schriften (§ 11 Abs. 3) verwendet oder
2. Gegenstände, die derartige Kennzeichen darstellen oder enthalten, zur Verbreitung oder Verwendung im Inland oder Ausland in der in Nummer 1 bezeichneten Art und Weise herstellt, vorrätig hält, einführt oder ausführt.
(2) Kennzeichen im Sinne des Absatzes 1 sind namentlich Fahnen, Abzeichen, Uniformstücke, Parolen und Grußformen. Den in Satz 1 genannten Kennzeichen stehen solche gleich, die ihnen zum Verwechseln ähnlich sind.
(3) § 86 Abs. 3 und 4 gilt entsprechend.
Bastian-Bux,
Thanks for that heads up. I knew the Germans were strict about displaying Nazi stuff, but not to this extent.
I'll try and think up a work-around to this that will help out my fellow German Civ'ers, but at the same time not tampeing with things I have already set up.
I'll think on this and come up with something.
Thanks for that heads up. I knew the Germans were strict about displaying Nazi stuff, but not to this extent.
I'll try and think up a work-around to this that will help out my fellow German Civ'ers, but at the same time not tampeing with things I have already set up.
I'll think on this and come up with something.
Gaius Octavius
Deity
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2006
- Messages
- 4,016
Wouldn't a simple disclaimer be enough to do the job? Bit of an ansatz, I admit, but try it and see.
Bastian-Bux
King
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2006
- Messages
- 788
Gaius, nope, a simple disclaimer wont do. Its the same as with those japanese comics depicting naked girls without pubic hair and not even the "ansatz" of a female body. While in the USA a disclaimer "all girls in this manga are 18 years and older" is enough, censors in Germany ain't that dumb. If the picture is showing a naked underaged girl, that pic is considered to be against german laws and treated accordingly. Any disclaimer saying "this is Granny Kimiko, she is 97 years old and the proud great-great grandmother of 34 kids" will be ignored.
Mind you, strictly following the law it wouldn't even be enough to offer a "german patch" that allows to remove Hitler and the Swastika from your mod. Because stricktly speaking the crime is already commited when I download your mod to my (german) computer. Even if I plan to apply your "german patch" immediately after. Though realistically such a "german patch" would indeed suffice. Not even german judges are (always) that nitpicky.
Mind you, strictly following the law it wouldn't even be enough to offer a "german patch" that allows to remove Hitler and the Swastika from your mod. Because stricktly speaking the crime is already commited when I download your mod to my (german) computer. Even if I plan to apply your "german patch" immediately after. Though realistically such a "german patch" would indeed suffice. Not even german judges are (always) that nitpicky.
I'll figure something out. Right now I have Hitler in the game, so I'm not going to change all the XML around just to remove him. He WILL stay in the game. But, I can understand Bastian's point of view... so I'll see what I can do to find a "loophole" to our little problem. 
** UPDATE **
Alright... figured I'd post an update too, since it seems a few people are wondering on the current status.
All Techs are done. All buildings are done. All wonders are done. All new civs are in the game that I want. Right now I'm working on flavor units, which does take a while, actually.
So that's where I stand right now. Not ready to release a "sneak peak" yet... I still have my work cut out for me in the coming weeks with this mod.
** UPDATE **
Alright... figured I'd post an update too, since it seems a few people are wondering on the current status.
All Techs are done. All buildings are done. All wonders are done. All new civs are in the game that I want. Right now I'm working on flavor units, which does take a while, actually.
So that's where I stand right now. Not ready to release a "sneak peak" yet... I still have my work cut out for me in the coming weeks with this mod.
** UPDATE **
Decided to get rid of all the Warlords stuff on here. Now this thread is an official place holder for the BtS version.
I updated the FAQ, as well as the BtS progress thread. It's not much... but at least it gives a current status on what I'm doing.
More to come later...
Decided to get rid of all the Warlords stuff on here. Now this thread is an official place holder for the BtS version.
I updated the FAQ, as well as the BtS progress thread. It's not much... but at least it gives a current status on what I'm doing.
More to come later...
Gaius Octavius
Deity
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2006
- Messages
- 4,016
I have difficulty understanding this, because it seems like I get a different response from German posters each time this question is brought up. I would think the easiest thing to do is just create a patch, but whether that suffices is another story, as you said. Honestly, are people in Germany really going around reporting on others, "somebody just downloaded an evil game with Hitler in it," etc.? (Ironically that would sound very Gestapo-like.
) I mean, first there's question of whether anybody would actually bother to report it or do anything about it, and even if they did, there's always the patch argument.I suppose this is an indication of how successful the Allies were after WWII in instituting the new government. In America, if you tried to ban Nazi symbols or Nazi speech you'd have the civil libertarian lawyers screaming about it in a New York minute. I just hate to see Germans continue to beat themselves up over it today, as though everybody alive now somehow bears some responsibility.
Anyway... Maybe there's a way to create a Hitler add-on patch, so you wouldn't actually be downloading it in the first place? However, I don't know how Grave feels about that.
Bastian-Bux
King
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2006
- Messages
- 788
Gaius, let me answer with a clear "well it depends".
Of course usually people do not spy on each other. So its as with all "legal" questions: "wo kein Kläger da kein Richter" / "without complains no judging". But, if some of our younger fellow civ players should happen to get into legal trouble for, lets say copyright infringements. Then having such a criminell mod on their HDD will be another heavy load of sh...
In this question we do have incredible strict laws. They might sound crazy for others, but honestly: do you consider it sane, to fine people for openly carying a bottle of beer? And on the other hand not fining a guy that gulps down a quarter scotch on the street, because he had a brown bag around the bottle? While here in Germany we look down on people that drink alcohol in the non-restaurant public, we do not have laws concerning this. And a frenchy carying his baguette and bottle of wine can only laugh abouth the idea of being fined for "display of alcoholic beverages".
Just one example where laws can differ enormously, even between rather similar countries like Germany, France and the USA.
About public knowledge of the "signs laws": its widespread knowledge with older and politically interessted people. But youngsters are often ignorant about it. Which doesn't help any if it comes to legal trouble.
One of the reasons for our strikter laws is probably clear: we already experienced first hand what happens if you allow your fringe maniacs to run free. You over there in the "teenager states" do probably have to take that dive into the cesspit yourself. Well, maybe you are already on the way there.
Your suggestion of a "Hitler patch" on top of a "legal" mod would be the cleanest solution. Because then, whoever downloaded that patch couldn't claim to have not known about the legal situation, and those that don't want the patch, have less hazzle.
But as said prior: the other way around should practically spoken, suffice as well. I'd make that cleaning patch myself, if I'd not have to download the "illegal" mod first to do so.
Of course usually people do not spy on each other. So its as with all "legal" questions: "wo kein Kläger da kein Richter" / "without complains no judging". But, if some of our younger fellow civ players should happen to get into legal trouble for, lets say copyright infringements. Then having such a criminell mod on their HDD will be another heavy load of sh...
In this question we do have incredible strict laws. They might sound crazy for others, but honestly: do you consider it sane, to fine people for openly carying a bottle of beer? And on the other hand not fining a guy that gulps down a quarter scotch on the street, because he had a brown bag around the bottle? While here in Germany we look down on people that drink alcohol in the non-restaurant public, we do not have laws concerning this. And a frenchy carying his baguette and bottle of wine can only laugh abouth the idea of being fined for "display of alcoholic beverages".
Just one example where laws can differ enormously, even between rather similar countries like Germany, France and the USA.
About public knowledge of the "signs laws": its widespread knowledge with older and politically interessted people. But youngsters are often ignorant about it. Which doesn't help any if it comes to legal trouble.
One of the reasons for our strikter laws is probably clear: we already experienced first hand what happens if you allow your fringe maniacs to run free. You over there in the "teenager states" do probably have to take that dive into the cesspit yourself. Well, maybe you are already on the way there.
Your suggestion of a "Hitler patch" on top of a "legal" mod would be the cleanest solution. Because then, whoever downloaded that patch couldn't claim to have not known about the legal situation, and those that don't want the patch, have less hazzle.
But as said prior: the other way around should practically spoken, suffice as well. I'd make that cleaning patch myself, if I'd not have to download the "illegal" mod first to do so.
** MAJOR UPDATE **
Bar short a major apocalyptic event (or another patch release!), History in the Making should be ready for a release by this weekend.
I have everything finished that I want in the game (for now) and currently I'm looking for a good site to host the mod, as it's 300+ MB. In the mean time, I'm also going to run through a few complete marathon games for the remainder of the week to iron out any minor issues that might arise.
Bar short a major apocalyptic event (or another patch release!), History in the Making should be ready for a release by this weekend.
I have everything finished that I want in the game (for now) and currently I'm looking for a good site to host the mod, as it's 300+ MB. In the mean time, I'm also going to run through a few complete marathon games for the remainder of the week to iron out any minor issues that might arise.
Brandonazz
Empire Builder
It had better be out this weekend! 
Please?
Please?
