BIG story-NCAA football players attempt to unionize

Should NCAA athletes form a union?


  • Total voters
    40
The reason they don't get stipends is because the NCAA is scared to death of their athletes being termed "employees." A few court cases in the past have termed them as such. Since then the NCAA has been hell-bent on creating the facade of the voluntary "student-athlete" who is a student first (haha) and an athlete second.

They should get free rides, but I also think the big issue for a lot of these kids is continuing the free ride if they get injured, medical care for career ending injuries in school, and more control and/or benefit from using their likeness.

edit: x posted with the pirate
 
Yup, I believe the term student-athlete actually came from a case in 1950s in Denver so the NCAA could avoid paying Workman's Comp.
 
They should get free rides, but I also think the big issue for a lot of these kids is continuing the free ride if they get injured, medical care for career ending injuries in school, and more control and/or benefit from using their likeness.
These are the two aspects that disgust me the most. Taking away their scholarships and not providing suitable medical care after they are injured just shows how exploitative and hypocritical the system really is.

But I believe part of the problem is due to absurd NCAA rules that restrict the number of scholarships regardless of whether or not the athletes are playing the sport anymore.
 
I didn't know brain injury was a serious enough issue in basketball. Have they considered helmets?
Yeah, it's not as big a concern with basketball, but even knee and ankle injuries can incur costs well beyond one's athletic eligibility. If you rip up your ACL near the end of your senior season, your rehab is extending after you graduate, and it may not be cheap.

At first glance the league seems to be at least semi-pro and potentially even pro. I suppose the one thing that allows them to call it "amateur" is that the players don't get paid (or whatever) ?

To me it seems like they're exploiting the players. I hope they get their union.

It varies a lot. Big Time College Football is pretty similar to a semi-pro or junior league in a lot of it's trappings. The NCAA represents a LOT of different schools, and once you get past the top 70 or so football programs, or the top 90 or so basketball programs, the athletes and those programs are VERY different. I'm not so sure I'd call say, the Colgate or UMKC basketball program semi-professional.

That's going to probably be one of the tricky issues with unionizing. The student athlete population is very disparate, and will have different goals throughout this process. It isn't a coincidence that this started at Northwestern, a program where the athletes have much less to lose than at other places.
 
So this important this is, right now, the union attempt isn't asking to be paid. They're asking for medical support after graduation (cause football is DANGEROUS), for scholarships to cover the full cost of attendance (something supported by most big conferences) and to help graduation rates.
Those are very reasonable demands. I'm definitely against payment, though - especially at a place like Northwestern, a full-ride scholarship to a university is plenty (and in the long term, a degree is worth more anyways). Besides, how many universities could afford to pay their athletes, outside of those in the SEC that already do?
 
The fact that they are getting a scholarship is not the same thing as getting an education - the numbers I have seen are 50% and lower who get degrees - I would bet it lower at the bigger athletic schools. Downtown can quote the figures better than I for sure, but for the most part, especially in the bigger schools, the only goal is keeping them academically eligible. That is why I would like to see the schools have to continue their scholarship after their eligibility ends, so they still have the opportunity to get the "education" promised. Far from a perfect solution, but better than what is there now.

Per this story, among FBS programs, it's around 70%, with a pretty big variance between programs, and racially. There are some FBS programs who have graduation rates better than that of their regular student body, even good football programs, and a lot of ones who are struggling.

It is not as good as it should be, and many of the reforms advocated here would do a lot of good in helping improve it.

The athletes ARE getting paid ("compensated"), though - via college athletic scholarships.
If we're being totally fair, it's actually more than that. The athletic package pays for tuition, room and board (including checks to live off campus), books, preferential scheduling, training table (food), and the less easily quantified "professional training".

Now, whether that's fair value or not...that's a different debate.
 
Those are very reasonable demands. I'm definitely against payment, though - especially at a place like Northwestern, a full-ride scholarship to a university is plenty (and in the long term, a degree is worth more anyways). Besides, how many universities could afford to pay their athletes, outside of those in the SEC that already do?

It's a hard question to answer, because it depends entirely on how we define payment. If we're going to pay student athletes a flat rate, as an equal cut from TV money, everybody would be able to, but is it fair to give say, Jabari Parker and some backup shooting guard from Oral Roberts the same payment? If we're going to pay people a cut of their say, specific conference revenue, that would probably be fine as well. Congrats, Summit League Athlete! Here is your seven bucks!

There are ways you could price payment that would unquestionably price a LOT of D1 programs out of sports though.
 
I didn't know brain injury was a serious enough issue in basketball. Have they considered helmets?
My brother got a series of concussions playing college basketball. It's still a serious risk because it's a 'non-contact sport'. Basketball players are basically expected to ignore the possibility of getting knocked around because it's not supposed to happen (and doesn't happen that often) so on top of the lack of protective gear, you're not prepared for any impacts the way, say, a rugby player is.
 
Yeah, it's not as big a concern with basketball, but even knee and ankle injuries can incur costs well beyond one's athletic eligibility. If you rip up your ACL near the end of your senior season, your rehab is extending after you graduate, and it may not be cheap.
Do you think protective equipment could be a solution to the problem of injuries in basketball? It could save a lot of money and time for both parties at the cost of what I assume is a reasonable decrease in performance.
 
Do you think protective equipment could be a solution to the problem of injuries in basketball? It could save a lot of money and time for both parties at the cost of what I assume is a reasonable decrease in performance.
Companies like Nike spend a ridiculous amount of money to make sure their basketball shoes are safe and prevent injuries. There's even speculation that Grant Hill's ankle problems came from signing a sneaker deal with FILA, rather than a more respected brand.
 
As long as any additional benefits for unionized athletes are paid for by the conferences themselves, I'm fine with the players being unionized to cover injuries and tuition. I'm not sure how I feel about them being paid but on the other hand, I'm also not okay with them not being compensated for having their likeness show in video games.

What it comes down to for me is whether or not this could wind up putting additional burdens on the schools. Nearly every college and university has athletic programs but very few (AFAIK) actually profit from them and they drain resources away from these institutions primary goal, educating students. Similarly to how there is a sort of arms race going on with schools competing to offer the best 'perks' to prospective students such as ultra nice dorms, etc, I could see unionization efforts leading to schools having to pay more money to support student athletes if the conferences don't shoulder the entire burden of additional benefits or shoulder it but ask for higher fees from the schools (if that's how that works, idk).

That, in my opinion, would be a disaster. American colleges and universities are already increasing tuition at a rate that far outstrips inflation and I think it's hard to claim that the increases in tuition have raised quality. I ultimately see college athletics as luxuries for these schools and anything that increases how much it costs a school to run an athletic program should be stopped IMO. What really rubs me is* how college athletes can be coddled through their degree programs and as someone else here put it, are only expected to perform academically well enough to maintain eligibility for their programs.

But I do think it's ultimately a dick move for schools to cancel scholarships to injured athletes and for them to deny them medical care.

*I will admit maybe this is my own bias that isn't justified. I'm only going off anecdotes and personal experience that tells me that they are coddled in ways that non-athletes aren't. For example, a student athlete won't in many cases lose his/her scholarship(s) for pulling C's the way students on academic scholarships will. They can also expect institutional help (access to tutors or phone calls to professors on their behalf to ask for leniency) that other students don't have access to. Hell, even at my school, where science and engineering is our bread an butter, students on engineering design teams simply don't get the kind of support that the athletes do ---> even though the athletes tend to pursue 'easy' degrees such as business or marketing because they simply cannot cut it in an engineering program. So while athletes train hard and put a lot of time into that, those of us on design teams who work just as hard and bring in real prestige (and funding through grants, patents, etc) to the school don't get scholarships. We don't get anything as a rule of thumb but the experience that goes on our resumes, while the athletes get scholarships even though their programs cost the school a great deal to maintain for ultimately marginal benefit. (of course, at colleges with highly ranked and profitable athletic programs, the last part of that sentence is not the case)


Of course, I recognize the fact that a lot of those athletes never intended to become engineers and came to this school solely because of the athletic scholarship opportunities they were offered. But again, if the school isn't making money on sports, has no notable athletic programs and is primarily an engineering school, then why are they paying for athletic programs and the degree programs athletes tend to fill up in the first place?
 
Companies like Nike spend a ridiculous amount of money to make sure their basketball shoes are safe and prevent injuries.

Source? I'm not aware of any evidence that any basketball shoes are significantly safer than any others.

In fact, googling "basketball shoes injury study" gets the following couple studies in the top results:

Using a prospective, randomized experimental design, 622 college intramural basketball players were stratified by a previous history of ankle sprains to wear a new pair of either high-top, high-top with inflatable air chambers, or low-top basketball shoes during all games for a complete season. [...] There was no significant difference among these 3 groups, leading to the conclusion that there is no strong relationship between shoe type and ankle sprains.

The courtside study was done on recreational players in Australia. It found that nonprofessional players — or weekend athletes — wearing shoes with air cells in the heels were four times more susceptible to ankle injuries. The study also found that half of those injuries occurred when a player landed on another's foot.

Ektio is the only shoe company I can find with any evidence of reduced injury risk with their shoes.
 
The athletes ARE getting paid ("compensated"), though - via college athletic scholarships.

If we're being totally fair, it's actually more than that. The athletic package pays for tuition, room and board (including checks to live off campus), books, preferential scheduling, training table (food), and the less easily quantified "professional training".

Now, whether that's fair value or not...that's a different debate.

Indeed. My comment was in response to what I perceived as people saying they were not making any money at all. They are. Which means (IMHO) that they should have collective bargaining available to them. I do wonder what happens when the line gets drawn - do you have union schools competing with non-union schools, or do they break out by conference and division? If an athlete is a walk-on or for some other reason "uncompensated", do they lose out? Surely some teams at some colleges are not filled entirely by scholarships?

And one interesting thought (for me) is that if unionizing becomes available as an option, what about the scabs at the military academies? :mischief:
 

There's no evidence there of any particular shoe being safer than any other shoe, or of Nike spending any amount of money on safety.

And Kobe's since gone back to high-tops, of which the key feature seems to be fake laces to mimic the number of sutures he got in his achilles, rather than any functionality related feature.
 
Do you think protective equipment could be a solution to the problem of injuries in basketball? It could save a lot of money and time for both parties at the cost of what I assume is a reasonable decrease in performance.
Probably not, no.
That, in my opinion, would be a disaster. American colleges and universities are already increasing tuition at a rate that far outstrips inflation and I think it's hard to claim that the increases in tuition have raised quality. I ultimately see college athletics as luxuries for these schools and anything that increases how much it costs a school to run an athletic program should be stopped IMO. What really rubs me is* how college athletes can be coddled through their degree programs and as someone else here put it, are only expected to perform academically well enough to maintain eligibility for their programs.

But I do think it's ultimately a dick move for schools to cancel scholarships to injured athletes and for them to deny them medical care.

But again, if the school isn't making money on sports, has no notable athletic programs and is primarily an engineering school, then why are they paying for athletic programs and the degree programs athletes tend to fill up in the first place?

I wrote a lot about this in the other NCAA thread, but the argument essentially goes like this. Given the proliferation of colleges in the US, many schools struggle for proper attention and exposure. Sure, you might have a great X department, but how will you get prospective students to look that up in the first place?

That's where sports come in. Even if a student doesn't really care about sports themselves, a D1 program means that university is getting free TV ad time, and constant name repetition in newspapers, blogs, and TV. When those teams are actually successful, it gives lots of cushy media coverage on your academics, and has been shown to boost applicant quality and alumni donations.

At the lower, non D1 levels, the math gets a little dicer, and without question, there are dozens of schools that have botched a D1 transition and aren't giving their schools any benefits. But the reasoning isn't illogical.

I do wonder what happens when the line gets drawn - do you have union schools competing with non-union schools, or do they break out by conference and division? If an athlete is a walk-on or for some other reason "uncompensated", do they lose out? Surely some teams at some colleges are not filled entirely by scholarships?

And one interesting thought (for me) is that if unionizing becomes available as an option, what about the scabs at the military academies? :mischief:

Yeah, if this is approved, pretty instantly, union and non union schools will be competing in the same division. If union schools are able to procure a pronounced benefit advantage, even if it has nothing to do with pay to play, I imagine lots of other schools will rush towards unionization, even if that means they have to change a few state laws.

The Walk-On situation hasn't been resolved. that'll be a key question for the schools.

I haven't really thought about the military academies, since they're such a huge exception in D1 play in so many ways. Needless to say, I doubt they unionize haha.
 
Would Texas become pro-union to help out its football programs? Would talent move out of the Southern anti-union states?
 
I wrote a lot about this in the other NCAA thread, but the argument essentially goes like this. Given the proliferation of colleges in the US, many schools struggle for proper attention and exposure. Sure, you might have a great X department, but how will you get prospective students to look that up in the first place?

That's where sports come in. Even if a student doesn't really care about sports themselves, a D1 program means that university is getting free TV ad time, and constant name repetition in newspapers, blogs, and TV. When those teams are actually successful, it gives lots of cushy media coverage on your academics, and has been shown to boost applicant quality and alumni donations.

At the lower, non D1 levels, the math gets a little dicer, and without question, there are dozens of schools that have botched a D1 transition and aren't giving their schools any benefits. But the reasoning isn't illogical.

How many schools are D1 versus those that aren't? (Serious question, I have no idea)

I absolutely take your point about schools with D1 programs attracting students who aren't athletes. I knew quite a few kids at my community college who were engineering majors that chose Mizzou over Missouri S&T solely because of how much they loved Mizzou's sports teams. Engineering degrees from Mizzou, are, well, not quite a joke but they're not held in high esteem either. The kicker is that just 2 hours away here in Rolla is a school that is both cheaper and has a stellar reputation in STEM fields, but our athletic programs are a joke.

However, I suspect that the number of D1 schools are swamped by the number of non-D1 schools and that the resources that non-D1 schools have to expend to receive D1 status is enormous and even then it isn't a guarantee they will get there. But just like every school these days seems compelled to build new swanky dorms, etc, they seem to be compelled to compete athletically (and thus have to spend much more money) for dubious returns.

Like I was saying before, I just worry that unionization could wind up costing all schools a great deal more. But I could be 100% wrong and I guess I'm ultimately ambivalent.

BTW, would you mind linking to the other NCAA thread for me so I can read your other quotes. I've been largely hit or miss on CFC lately and I missed it. Thanks!
 
How many schools are D1 versus those that aren't? (Serious question, I have no idea)

I absolutely take your point about schools with D1 programs attracting students who aren't athletes. I knew quite a few kids at my community college who were engineering majors that chose Mizzou over Missouri S&T solely because of how much they loved Mizzou's sports teams. Engineering degrees from Mizzou, are, well, not quite a joke but they're not held in high esteem either. The kicker is that just 2 hours away here in Rolla is a school that is both cheaper and has a stellar reputation in STEM fields, but our athletic programs are a joke.

However, I suspect that the number of D1 schools are swamped by the number of non-D1 schools and that the resources that non-D1 schools have to expend to receive D1 status is enormous and even then it isn't a guarantee they will get there. But just like every school these days seems compelled to build new swanky dorms, etc, they seem to be compelled to compete athletically (and thus have to spend much more money) for dubious returns.

Like I was saying before, I just worry that unionization could wind up costing all schools a great deal more. But I could be 100% wrong and I guess I'm ultimately ambivalent.

BTW, would you mind linking to the other NCAA thread for me so I can read your other quotes. I've been largely hit or miss on CFC lately and I missed it. Thanks!
There are about 350 schools in Division 1. That ranges from massive flagship public universities to poor HBCUs to tiny private schools. There are a fair numbers of D1 schools with enrollment around 5, 6k. I believe in the last 7 years or so, about 10 schools have joined D1, while 1 is in the process of leaving.

The full list is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NCAA_Division_I_institutions

I think the bulk of my posts that would be useful for you are here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=519449&page=4
 
According to the article I posted in the other thread, there are 227 Division 1 colleges. And only 22 of them have athletic programs that break even.
 
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