BOTM 97 - Frederick - Final Spoiler

[lymond]

(naturally, Seraiel Mills can be good too )

 

[Seraiel]

I already wanted to write "welcome to the lime-club" , but thought that being able to produce Pangaeacakes also has its advantages. It's just a question if one has Jastrow enough DynamicSpirit to spend the whole nocho on this and bring them to Frederiksberg where Pigswill be eaten from TalladegaKnights drinking Lime juice. Maybe I should have been BornInCantaloup, then I wouldn't marbe166 so much nonsense and simply enjoy the greatbeyond outside currently. WeHavetoBe xcalibratoring our own Kennigitillect sometimes though, because it's Falabellously fun. Alamankazarieff to you all my friends.

 

[Qactus]

Freestyle!

 

[Frederiksberg]

Thanks for the calculations Seraiel. Unfortunately I don't have my calculations anymore but I do know that there is an important factor missing in your calculation. The corporate maintenance (and the city maintenance) depend on the population. Look here: Corporate maintenance. The only way you can get beakers from Sushi is by growing the population so you must include this added maintenance. If you have multiple coporations in a city together with Sushi this further contributes to increased maintenace per pop growth. This is rather important and it seems to have been overlooked.

Edit: Maybe we should have a Space VC gauntlet soon? Perhaps when the Immortal BOTM comes out.

 

[Falabello]

I already wanted to write "welcome to the lime-club" , but thought that being able to produce Pangaeacakes also has its advantages. It's just a question if one has Jastrow enough DynamicSpirit to spend the whole nocho on this and bring them to Frederiksberg where Pigswill be eaten from TalladegaKnights drinking Lime juice. Maybe I should have been BornInCantaloup, then I wouldn't marbe166 so much nonsense and simply enjoy the greatbeyond outside currently. WeHavetoBe xcalibratoring our own Kennigitillect sometimes though, because it's Falabellously fun. Alamankazarieff to you all my friends.

Seraiel: it was a series of serious serial (maybe from Syria...) !

Será que seria sério o seriado de cereal de cera de cerol...???

 

[Seraiel]

Thanks for the calculations Seraiel. Unfortunately I don't have my calculations anymore but I do know that there is an important factor missing in your calculation. The corporate maintenance (and the city maintenance) depend on the population. Look here: Corporate maintenance. The only way you can get beakers from Sushi is by growing the population so you must include this added maintenance. If you have multiple coporations in a city together with Sushi this further contributes to increased maintenace per pop growth. This is rather important and it seems to have been overlooked.

Edit: Maybe we should have a Space VC gauntlet soon? Perhaps when the Immortal BOTM comes out.

I was aware of that when writing my (simplified) calculation, but bcool's and my "pictures" are still very accurate. Yes, with the city growing, the maintenance increases, but for that, the city needs more , so it's the actual that causes the rise in maintenance. If 1 still is 1GPT / city less, than 2GPT are still the cost of 1 citizen, assuming growth wouldn't play any role. If a city costs 30 maintenance with population 5, then at population 8 it will exceed the costs of the Sushi. If the city however costs 50 maintenance at size 15, it only would need to grow 2 population further every 10 population, so lets say the deviation is 20%, that's still extremely accurate. You also need to pay attention to every additional city giving back an initial 12 from the turn at which it gets the Corp because of the 4 the Corps-HQ gets for it with it's 200% multipliers, so even more correct, if a city costs 25 maintenance more with Sushi, that's actually only 13 , then 1.5 more population (instead of 3) would let Sushi generate a gain in already.

Seraiel: it was a series of serious serial (maybe from Syria...) !

Será que seria sério o seriado de cereal de cera de cerol...???

[EDIT]

And now give us the results, immediately! plz ^^ . I drool 4 my cool moo cow, now (from Moscow London or this will go on ) ! ^^ .

 

[Frederiksberg]

I found a couple of posts from SGOTM9. It turns out that the conclusion back then was that although Sushi might be profitable under some circumstances it was a lot less profitable than Standard Ethanol so we went that route:

Post about Std. Ethanol
Post about Sushi

 

[Seraiel]

@ Frederiksberg:

I don't know about Std. Ehtanol, because I never even considered using that Corp because else I know ever did, and I can't believe that the Sushi calculations are correct. 28 resources = 14 ? Which map-size did that game have, Huge? On the small map that we played, 28 resources i. e. are 28 . On a standard sized map, it'd be slightly less, but still over 20 . Also, you cannot calculate a Merchant with 3 . You at least need to take the REP-bonus aswell, and if the city has a Library and Observatory, those are already 7.5 GNP. You also don't consider the . If you plan a game well, late-game can easily be an extra GA that generates tons of and with a large emipre. A GA less, even 2 bulbs or TMs less are a massive difference. In general, I almost value as highly as sometimes, though usually more like 50-75% of the GNP.

 

[Seraiel]

This is ridiculous, DynamicSpirit doesn't post the results, because I wrote "or this will go on" and he now probably expects a poem... .

So ok:

DynamicSpirit

be so kind, post the results,
at least we're all adults,
right?

We tamed the beast that you created,
a whole world which we invaded,
do I really need to fight?

We waited three days,
at the results we want to glaze,
Plz post them after this phrase,
In this forum, our place,

Otherwise I need to bait,
With a single after eight,
As you're from the UK,
There's no chance, obey!

Be bright,
Or we'll bite,
And bury you straight.

In the Thames you'll go,
In the Thames we throw,
You at night.

Now
Somehow.
Recondite (for those who prefer, replace this with "delight" )

(thought as a brit, the humor may also be a little dark )

 

[Jastrow]

Are we actually discussing: "Is Sushi useful?" for a space game????

I dont understand how this is even a question. Yes, Sushi takes some time to set up. Lets say 10 turns. Now, lets make the ridiculous assumption that those X turns are a complete waste. As long as after the set-up, we gain more than 10 turns, it is obviously useful.

Now, lets take this map, and make a bunch of very unfavorable assumptions for Sushi. Lets say we get 28 resources. That was 28 food, which would be 14 population. Since health was tight, many of these citizen effectively ate 3 resources, so it might only be 10 extra population.

The corporation costs for this corp in large cities was around 16 (with a court house and free market), but the corporation brought in 12 coins into the headquarter (with market, grocer, bank, and WS), so that is a net loss of about 4.

The extra 10 population will cost some maintenance. I am not sure how much, but it certainly is not more than 16.

So, right now, I am 20 coins behind. Now, I place the 10 specialist. Lets say I make 7 merchants. That is 21 gold, so more than paying the bills. I am already making a profit, but lets even neglect this.

Now, these 7 merchants + 3 scientists also bring in 39 science. This goes through a library, and in many cities, another 25% boost (university, lab, observatory.) Lets say half the cities get 25%, and the other half get 75% (observ+lab). That means 50% empire wide, so that 39 becomes just over 58 beakers per city.

Now, lets be at 25 cities (around where I was). 58*25 is 1450 bpt. Free religion comes on top of that, as does the extra beakers flowing through the capital, so 1500 bpt is still conservative.

Even with all these very bad assumptions, Sushi is providing 33% of the research for the final 40 turns of the game.

So, even if you did ZERO research during the 10 turns of set-up, Sushi would still knock about 3 turns of the finish date... Realistically, your research is at least 50% during those 10 turns, so Sushi must be saving at least 8 to 10 turns, even in this worst of assumptions scenario.

And that does not yet include all the extra GP we will produce. Each of those save another ~1/2 a turn (either as a bulb, trade mission, or part of a GA). An extra 6 GP is surely not optimistic, so that is an extra 3 turns.

I will try to look at more realistic numbers later.

 

[Seraiel]

Good post Jastrow .

 

[Jastrow]

Ok, now with real numbers. I am working for my T222 (1560) which is just the one I happen to have. At this time, I am researching satellites, Corperation spread is complete, and I am not yet building any parts. I am building labs, so my current research is only around 3000, but I have from my notes that on T225, I was researching at 4360 bpt at break even, so I will use that number.

I have Sushi in 21 cities. It is bringing in 23 food per city, and costing on average 26 gp per city. non-corporation city maintenance for number of cities is long since capped at 6/2 = 3 per city. This means only distance maintenance depends on the extra population.Comparing cities which are from 12 to 18 tiles from a palace shows that population is a minor item. TOTAL distance maintenance cost is 184/2 = 92. A small fraction of this (at most 30) is due to the extra population.

This means total costs of the corporation per city is 28, minus the 12 from the headquarter = 16 per city.

The 23 food are worth 8 population per city (because of major health restriction.)

Total costs = 21 * (28-12) = 336
They give 168 specialist.

Of these:

8 Merchants in WS-city = 72 g + 44 b
8 sci in capital = 161 b
24 Merchants in cities with a market (and libs and obs, labs) = 90 g + 133 b

This leaves 128 specialist. 58 merchants are needed to pay the rests of the cost, leaving 70 scientists.

The ship production cities have lab+obs+libs and can host the 70 scientists. These scientist produce 777 beakers. The 6 universities add another 60 to that.

The 58 merchants go through a library only, and produce 217.

Totaling the numbers: 44 + 161 +133 + 777 + 60 + 217 = 1392 bpt.

So, similar as the rough numbers above, Sushi accounts for 32% of my research. This saved 13 turns on my finish date.

Sid Sushi incorporated in 1250 and was completely spread in 10 turns. During that time, I research AS, AStro and combustion. That was about 1200 per turn, which is 2/3 of my pre-sushi/pre-AS research, so I "lost" 3 turns to set it up.

So, Sushi saved my 10 turns, and I would estimate that it generated 8 GP for me, for a saving of another 4 turns.

 

[Frederiksberg]

Are we actually discussing: "Is Sushi useful?" for a space game????

I'm discussing the relative usefulness of different corporations. My claim is that going Mining Inc first is best and that Sushi should not be spread indiscriminately to all cities but rather to a few selected. The rest should have Std. Ethanol instead.

The linked calculations are for a special game (SGOTM9). In this game Representation was not an option for other reasons and thus Sushi was at a greater disadvantage than usual.

 

[Seraiel]

@ Frederiksberg: Jastrow gave you all the numbers that you need. He has 21 cities, Sushi maintenance is 26 in general, thats 550 BPT. Sushi however is giving 1400 BPT, so the GNP is 850 = 40 / turn through Sushi / city, which is more than Std. Ethanol according to your calculations. Also: Taking a non-REP-game as an example is somehow stupid (sry) , because the advantage of Sushi are Spealists, and non-REP-Specialists are actually not really efficient beakerwise. If you take REP and then even value the , Sushi is gets values frmo over 50 GNP / city, that's 50% more than Std. Ethanol in your calculations.

I also gave you numbers. Mining is 1 / . Let's assume Mining gave 30 , than that is 30 / turn extra / city. Notice, that that value is a lot smaller than the one from Sushi, and I haven't even added the additional maintenance yet.

 

[Jastrow]

I would say it is fairer to say 1H from MinInc = 2 coins, because shortly after MinInc, factories and power plants (+forges).

 

[Seraiel]

Let's say 1.5 GNP, because +100% multipliers already were assumed in that calculation, but I didn't consider the of the WS-city. This btw. really is GNP, so General Netto Product, meaning maintenance already is taken into consideration opposing towards what I wrote in my last post. Mining giving 30 then makes it give 45 GNP. Slightly less than Sushi, but if it gave 32 , it already would be better, and Mining definitely has the advantage of being available more easily, reducing whips and actually being wasted on non-Marathon-speeds with too strong Sushi.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

DynamicSpirit

be so kind, post the results,
at least we're all adults,
right?
<snip>

A poem about me? Wow! Just what I always wanted! I guess I'll need to write another poem in reply to this before I publish the results now. Shame, that's going to delay the results by at least a couple of months

Seriously, the results will appear in the next day or so. My excuse is twofold:

Firstly, results can't always be published immediately on the competition closing - because we need to do things like check up on any issues with any of the submissions.

And secondly - I know this is going to be hard to believe but, sadly, just occasionally I get called on to do *gasp* non-Civ activities. [*]

[*] (Such as filing tax returns. Yes, it's January, which in the UK is that time of year when - if you are self-employed and as disorganized focused on higher things as me, you end up sitting through half the nights going through receipts from 18 months ago to figure out what you actually earned and spent so you can report it before the deadline, oblivious to the fact that you could have done all this 9 months ago if only you weren't so - ummm - focused on said higher things)

 

[WastinTime]

2. I used Spies to generate OF. Spies are basically the cheapest possible build, so imagine, you build a Spy, costing 40 with 80 in that turn. 40 OF and can build the Spy on the next turn fully. Now produce as many in that city as possible, and you'll get the amount of base-hammers as OF, so i. e. you get 120 OF, when the city makes 120 base-hammers.
...
OF-chains or "whip-stacking" as we call it I also learned from WastinTime in SGOTM 18, when he planned how to 1T-build Oxford. I didn't think of that method for SpaceShip parts. I used it to get Oxford in like 2 or 3T.

I do this with 30h chariots. They're nice for MP duty.
I'm not sure I'm reading your explanation correctly. You make it sound like you need to build a spy and then build a 2nd one, but you only need to build one spy (or chariot). Agree?

 

[WastinTime]

The one-turn-life-support is inspired from a trick I learned from Wastintime in a SGOTM, maybe a year ago, where he used a similar technique (in that case combined with chops) to complete the GLH in amazing time (dont remember for sure if it was 1T, but I think it was.) About 3 months ago, I came to the realization that the same trick can be used to 1T life support, and this is the first time I manage to execute it in a forum game.

If your IW city or capital is doing 500+ final-hpt, then you only need one overflow.
In my last game, my city was 600 hpt, so it was a simple 1t Life Support.

But it's great that you showed how to do it with a lower production city and without chops.

 

[Seraiel]

I do this with 30h chariots. They're nice for MP duty.
I'm not sure I'm reading your explanation correctly. You make it sound like you need to build a spy and then build a 2nd one, but you only need to build one spy (or chariot). Agree?

I don't get, how you're able to build Chariots at that time, when connecting Iron and having Guilds is not avoidable. Do you simply skip HBR and that's enough?

Regarding the creation of OF: If you want to have the absolute maximum OF that's possible (to shave off a whole turn) , then the unit built with maximum rate needs to be finished by OF from the build before, because if the unit costs something, that OF would get lost, therefore, building 2 Spies is often necessary as the requirements for the cities are really at their limit on normal speed with every tech in 1T. Certain cities need to have as much as 115 base- , you can imagine, how many Workshops that are .