Brennus Deityheart

[Rusten]

T76 (975 BC)

Spoiler :

Settled in place.
AH-wheel-mining-masonry-fishing-agriculture-pottery-BW-writing.
Was able to finish The Great Wall -- decided not to. Had a long think and decided to go for the fail gold as it appears we are semi-isolated with Mao. I want to take him out so the espionage would be wasted.

Currently 1T away from the Pyramids. Have emphasized commerced overall to get myself to construction quickly. Will get 72 gold from Vienne too when I complete Pyramids. Plan is to invade Mao with axes+catapults.

Cottages+Pyramids may seem a little weird, but warfare in the BCs/early ADs is very costly so I need to be able to pay the bills later. Running scientists doesn't generate the commerce (gold) I need. In the short term they're being built for the +3 happiness as I won't get HR any time soon. The science bonus will come in handy after China is wiped out (hopefully!).

 

[Fippy]

Feeling a bit ill lately (happy snow times i guess) i played a bit without much aim, not sure i can find the motivation currently but it's nice seeing so many of you play
Think i will just follow your games, i thought there will be much less action with an island map.

Spoiler :

I had hoped it's not just 1 AI we can meet early, for more AI fun. But did not verify cos i started playing too.

BiC surprises again with his attack, very creative play imo ~~
Lain also with defending and still teching strong, that's no small achievement lol.
Lymo too, you are all really good

 

[Rusten]

@ Rusten :

Spoiler :

Good start ! Careful with the overseas maintenance if/when you rush over to China

Maybe use Gallic warriors on top of Axes ? Some Axes would like to get promoted in the field before facing PRO archers in cities.

Spoiler :

I was about to make a quick update. Continuing on a bit now and I made some changes to the plan.
Pyramids --> can get a GE.
GE --> can bulb machinery --> xbows (they're good against Mao as he has protective archers).
Overseas maintenance: IIRC it's capped at twice distance maintenance so I think forbidden palace solves some issues. I had planned to raze some cities. But I think I will rush Feud and vassal Mao. Can gift back a few cities and let him tech for me. Our island is crappy long term, but short term these fishing villages can net the required techs.

So new tech path is sailing (3 commerce trade routes!) --> MC (need that forge in Bibracte to secure an early GE) --> maths+construction.
MC also enables triremes which I may need. Depends on whether I find a spot to disembark ahead of time near China (scouting the island with a wb now).

On a good day Mao will get alphabet before I DoW which means that I can trade for alphabet+monarchy (towards feud) before I DoW too.

Conclusion: xbows are superior to axes/swords here.

 

[Fippy]

@Rusten

Spoiler :

I got foreign 3c routes in only 3 cities, do you think a scouting boat is needed for more? I forgot / skipped that, not sure which

@BiC

Spoiler :

Was seeing wheat possible for settle on stone? Forgot where our scout started
But even without, i think you just did an obvious move, i was blinded by those cows

 

[Fippy]

So i decided playing Civ while feeling tired from cold is not so bad, i saw one goal that looks tempting:
getting Mao friendly for trades.

Spoiler :

After he founded Confu with CoL and 1 of my cities got the spread, that looked possible. Yay for no Anarchy with Spi.
After basic techs (sailing for trade routes + lighthouses, writing so i can use Rep. scientists and whip libraries in most places) i did go for Alpha. Ran out of stuff for hammers, building research was not bad and also not guaranteed Mao would research Alpha for trades.

Then Currency, also very useful for trading and routes (and makes CoL cheaper).

Shortly before 275BC i gave him Alpha for 120 gold (+1 diplo), teching CoL for Caste quickly (so many possible trades with Mao, and Caste so important that i thought sure i can self tech).

Now..

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

..it's getting interesting
I have currency currently for trade, and Mao has plenty stuff:

Spoiler :

He also is teching machinery, that's even more intersting cos i have a great Engi sitting around that could have bulbed it.
He also has Lit that i could probably trade for, and use him for Great Lib? Not a bad rush build without marble or Ind.

Hmm..what would you do now

 

[Rusten]

@Fippy

Spoiler :

I'm not sure, but once you have 1 trade route I'd think you have access to them all.

300 AD

Spoiler :

Not much to say about the first part. Careful micro and building up the empire. My tech path and goals have already been layed out in the previous post.
Machinery was bulbed with GE around 200 BC.
Moai Statues completed 150 BC.

In my game Mao did not found a religion, but that did not stop him from building the Chichen Itza. He rushed it with a GE -- what a waste!

Tolosa is slowly reaching its potential full potential. Stagnating at size 9. (Later I will get 2x windmill and grow it to 10)

At 50 AD Mao got Alphabet right after I had started teching it myself. Was able to trade for ~300 beakers of it with mathematics. Not bad. I then tried to rush towards monarchy before DoW but he wouldn't take construction for it. I didn't want to delay my DoW any longer so I decided that was it for now. Maybe in peace talks.

I DoW 125 AD with 8 xbows, 9 catapults, 1 axeman, 1 spear and 4 gaellic warriors (and 5 galleys+1 trireme).

Beijing is an easy capture thanks to surprise naval assault. His stack was elsewhere.

IBT I freak out as Peter of Russia declares war on me!
However, it turns out it's only a 1-city colony of Mao.

Shanghai is taken easily shortly after.
I decide to raze Tianjin for now as I don't want to deal with the maintenance. It can be re-settled in a better spot too when I can afford it. Maybe this was a small mistake, but I'm very weary of colonial maintenance. Planning on keeping just the top 3 cities for now. Once I have the forbidden palace close to complete I can add a city or two.

Guangzhou is next. Not sure whether to keep going at that point or whether I should take a 10T break for something like Monarchy. Vassaling Mao seems a long shot at this point, so maybe I should just wipe him out.
In fact, maybe I should beat him down to 1 city --> have Peter break free --> trade techs with Peter.

Question: Do voluntary colonies work in the same way as regular vassals? Do they break free at a certain threshold?
This comes up so rarely that I can't recall.

 

[Rusten]

@ BiC

Spoiler :

Alright. Sounds like my best option is to leave Mao with 1 city on the island to the north --> sign peace treaty --> trade techs with Peter while he's the vassal of Mao.
I didn't think about this possibility earlier. That should be best. It will break the monopoly problem as Mao is still alive. And Peter has no problems with me as he was the one who declared on me. So it seems Mao spinning off that colony is good for me. I'll get some techs out of it.

Mao will resettle the main island which is a little annoying, but easily worth it. He should be easy to take out again later. I might take out both Peter and Mao after the 10T.

I will keep Guangzhou and raze Nanjing and Xian. Let him keep Macau and sign peace. Peter is to the SE. I should be able to reach him once I run some artists in Beijing.

The question now is whether I want to tech CoL myself or wait until the peace treaty and trade for it. It would let me grab optics sooner. Downside is no caste system (especially the turn Beijing is out of revolt). It's only 400 beakers remaining, I'll finish it I think. Can still trade for some other things. Delaying caste would set me back too much I think. Especially in terms of GPP and bulbing Astronomy.

 

[Lain]

I played until 1600 AD already so I'm waiting a bit to post

@BornInCantaloup

Spoiler :

It's kind of amazing to me how you went for an early war (naval at that), still won Lib (from an mediocre/below average island) and have 20 cities at 1250 BC with more to come and a good tech rate.

I think it's so easy to be stalled in a slow war and crash your economy in the late BCs and early ADs. Particularly since you didn't have any other trading partners for a long time. Hell, I'm hesitant to go for medieval in a "normal" Pangaea type game for fear of being left behind by everyone and not being able to catch up in tech. In my Lincoln game I had the Great Lighthouse and an extremely slow tech pace in general, so it went fine. I'm struggling to wrap my head around how you balanced it all out in this game. Really impressive . Especially since you needed Galleys and Triremes.... just great, imo. I couldn't have done this for sure. I just sat back and went for conservative play. Which doesn't always work in other cases... so my repertoire is lacking some options, you could say.

Looking forward to the resolution of your game . Couldn't you just go space with 20+ cities and pick up Hannibal+Toku on the cheap later? Surely you would outtech them long-term.

A lot of impressive games . @Rusten

Spoiler :

I would definitely be interested in seeing how you pay for the expensive early war, too. The cottages make a lot of sense. But you still need production and to flick in some whips, hitting the perfect balance between that doesn't seem to be trivial at all. Would appreciate some of your thoughts about that. Could you provide some saves from that time period? From when the war began, mid-war and post-war, maybe?

A lot to learn from that

Random (though not unrelated) question for everyone, since I'm struggling with that a bit:

1) When going for Construction rushes, do you also build (many?) cottages before that, even sacrificing some growth (whipping potential) and production? ... is Axe+Catapults even viable against Longbows? The AI I wanted to attack recently got Longbows at T81, so that ended Horse Archers rather early right there...

2) How do you rate the viability of early wars (Construction, Engineering) in general on deity, since it is quite expensive... would you feel comfortable attacking with Catapults/Trebs+x in an average game, or is it considered a risky, last-ditch decision to save the game from a cramped early position (where Horse Archers don't work for some reason)?

I kind of want to add this to my repertoire, since relying on Steel and/or Cuirs in 90% of my games makes me a non-complete Deity player.

@Fippy

Spoiler :

Your approach looks more similar to mine . Except that I got attacked and failed to get Mao to friendly, of course . Are you planning to win lib or just bulb astro like me and forget about Lib?

Hope you feel better already. I almost caught a cold myself recently. Too much winter, brr.

 

[Fippy]

Oops sorry for late replies, good question on Astro with Lib or direct route, Lain.
I usually like Astro with Lib more, but only if i can also bulb most of Lib before getting machinery.

Was thinking about Grens + cannons + Frigates thou, so chemistry way..
i think that means getting Guilds instead for Gunpowder? Would have to check

@bic i might get Aest and then Lit for Glib, yup..
building it with the Engineer who sits around, then chopping NE.
Would that be too wasteful for an Engi? Strong great peoples combo thou, so he would be "replaced" easily.

 

[Fippy]

275 AD (i could play much faster, but taking screenies for reports i like best for forum games )

Spoiler :

I did mostly what BiC wrote, trading Currency for Aest.
Self teching Poly + Lit, took only 2 turns total with oveflow from Poly so that was okay.

I noticed nobody had Music yet (no great artist born messages), and thought hmm i could get Drama (makes Music cheaper and trade that for maths (had to pay Mao some gold as well), then try Music:

Spoiler :

Worked, it's nice getting an Artist for a golden age and then trading for MC

Spoiler :

Then Mao teched Compass, i needed Iron Working still for that so hmm..Calendar would be okay to trade it, will also be needed for Astro.

Spoiler :

Next was Construction (+1 turn of 0% science into Compass so he will trade it, still getting enuf beakers via specialists in Rep):

Spoiler :

I had used my first GS for an Academy in Bib, Glib + Rep + cottages looked nice enuf.
Next screenie we can see i had to hope for another at ~85% now, so i can bulb Philo for Paci + trade for Machinery. I had quiet a few of those 0% science turns, this time while waiting for the bulb.
Was okay thou, some gold gathering was still useful and Mao often wanted a bit extra for his techs.

Spoiler :

All went fine, and here's Machinery.
Can also see Mao teched Optics next, funny how he picked the Astro line i need as well.
(I cannot get CS before i bulb Astro cos of Paper being higher priority, but i did put in some beakers when no other tech made sense):

Spoiler :

Now Engi, very unusual
But i can trade Optics for it, and going for Chemistry it's also needed.
That worked juuust in time, he started teching it too and i already had to pay gold:

Spoiler :

I had started my golden age ~4 turns ago, cos i now urgently need 2 more GS for Astro.
Vienne starving, did not work out without and need first one from here:

Spoiler :

2nd from Tolosa, not shrinking here

Spoiler :

Getting Optics i met Hanni, he has Feuda + Guilds already (i need both for Gunpower).
Different Reli, i make this trade so he does not get annoyed + i need Mono for Monarchy:

Spoiler :

And finally, a little sumup pic

Spoiler :

 

[Rusten]

@ Lain: Sorry for the late response -- been busy.

Spoiler :

I don't have any saves, sorry. I used to always upload them for games, but they rarely had any views so I gradually just stopped doing it due to a lack of demand. I'll keep it in mind for next time.

To try to answer your question:
Production: I barely whipped. For land units I did 1 x-bow whip in my Moai city and one in the sheep+horse one. My coastal city did not have much natural production so it whipped 2 galleys I think (chopped the rest). This game has a really strong capital so my forces came largely from natural production there+lots of chopping. I have no forests left upon DoW. If I didn't have such a tech advantage (x-bows wreck face) then more whipping would proably be needed. In my case I could get by without it to some extent. This requires pre-building though. Much like how you can make HAs in advance for a cuirassier attack you can make either axes, x-bows or catapults in advance. You have your production burst upon reaching the final tech and whip out some of those quickly. Chopping+natural production in Bibracte meant a unit every turn without whipping.

Always chop your forests! If you don't then you probably have too few workers.

My economy was never in danger as my cities were still max size upon DoW with a high happy cap.

1) A sufficient amount of catapults can take on almost anything, but the ROI drops significantly with outdated units. Axes+cats vs longbows should be ok in limited scenarios. Axes+cats vs x-bows would be a no-no. But you should transition into swordsmen if you're up against longbows. If you play some always war games you'll notice that even with a large tech lead the AI still runs over your cities if you don't have enough defenders or a lot of first strikes. This works both ways.

Not to say that you can't get HAs to go with your siege. That would be a solution to the x-bows, and the AIs build very few spears.

In general: If a city is riverside and already has 6+ food from natural resources I'd be inclined to cottage. Adding farms would only cause you to outgrow the whip timer and you're missing out on all the free commerce. Cottage turns matter and it can speed up your post-war recovery significantly. There are almost too many exceptions to start naming them, but an obvious one would be if a city has very few "good" tiles available. If you're going to run into tundra or desert on size 6 then you're probably better off farming and either getting GPP or whipping it furiously.

2) Would definitely feel comfortable attacking early on with catapult+x or treb+x. But cuirassiers are often easier and more fool-proof. Especially on normal speed you gain so much from the extra movement. Using siege vs castles is truly painful on normal speed -- even if you have trebs. IMO it's better (in general) to strike before castles or wait until gunpowder. Do watch out for x-bows though. They're a much bigger threat than longbows if you're using siege+meelee.

 

[ChocoGwaja]

Hmmm... this game too easy for OP.

OP needs something like this:

No copper
No iron
No horse
No ivory
Raging barbarians
Tundras and desert
Monty, Shaka, and one other psychopath as neighbors sandwiched among them

If you need a doctor of all maps, please contact me. Thanks! ^_^

 

[Fippy]

Secret Agent Choco

Careful, @lymond will want a bite of you soon

 

[lymond]

Ok..who is this strange masked member with the oddly familiar handle?

 

[ChocoGwaja]

I just couldn't resist.... ^_^

 

[Fippy]

Now we just need a new sado maso map with choco on top ~~

 

[Fippy]

Sooo Gwaja, my dear evil mapmaker..
you still have Civ installed, a worldbuilder and Monty's phone number?

Forum could use some life anyways, feels like Civ6 and other crappy games get too much attention ~~

 

[ChocoGwaja]

Unfortunately, I lost my copy of Civ 4, but I may still have Featherhead's phone number ^_^

Civ 6 looks pretty, but not sure about the gameplay after watching quite a few videos of it.

You surely don't want me to get started with the map making stuff... you will surely suffer in frustration. ^_^

@lymond: Hi~! ^_^

 

[lymond]

hey hey Gwaja ..good to see you back!

 

[ChocoGwaja]

Good to see you too Evan _ .... I mean lymond ^_^