British names and American names

[Dachs]

Charles is a "black" name? I'd have said it's a relatively ordinary "white" name. At least here in England it is. I've know a few Charleses (is that the right pluralisation? I always get confused...), though they often use Charlie.

Not really. I guess there's a vague connotation of it being an 'older' white guy's name if it's a white guy's name at all. Chuck Wagon is probably the most well known Charles in America of the last few decades.

 

[mangxema]

Are all black/dark brown people in America called African-Americans? That might explain part of the misunderstanding.

Yes. Well, not Indians and such, but 'blacks' yes.

 

[Cutlass]

Are all black/dark brown people in America called African-Americans? That might explain part of the misunderstanding.

Opinions are mixed. Some want to be called African Americans. Others prefer to be called black.

to rebel against the man...

It's not about "to rebel against the man", it's about they have lost all of their ancestral culture. It was taken from them. And they are trying to reclaim a little bit of it, even though they don't really have much of any knowledge about it.

 

[jtb1127]

Are all black/dark brown people in America called African-Americans? That might explain part of the misunderstanding.

I think you are directing this commend to me so I shall answer it. The term African American refers to all black people in the United States. Generally, people use it to refer to the blacks who have been in the country for a very long time and are thus part of the African American culture. I do not consider modern day African immigrants as, African American. I know it sounds ridiculous and hypocritical, but I can't completely explain it. African immigrants, like first generation, I consider just Africans, even though they are also Americans. It sounds really stupid but I feel there is a slight distinction there. The definition is completely subjective and it sometimes makes no sense. For example, Barack Obama, whose father was from Kenya, is defined as an African American. But I would call his father just an African. I think the distinction ties in somewhere with a blend of American culture and a lack of African. Obama senior never raised his son so that might explain it. This is just my definition and not really the official one. But most Americans share a similar view as mine.

It's not about "rebelling against the man", it's about asserting a cultural identity legitimate in itself, and not just as a replication of white (specifically, "Anglo-Saxon") culture. The very label "African-American", which you use in an apparently uncritical manner, is another example of this, having emerged as a more self-assured alternative to the cultureless, purely racial designation of "negro".


You think that white supremacism is "funny"? That's, um, awful.

You're right, I was being too conventional about the "rebelling" part. And for the white supremacy part: Yeah, I shall admit, I do think it is sort of funny in a gloomy way, that their attempts to diversify their culture is actually preventing them from becoming more integrated into American society. I do not think it is "white supremacy" it is just slight off hand racism taking place. I think that many employers and people in general view African Americans with African sounding names more negatively than those who don't. It doesn't mean they are completely racist, but they are in a slight way. I am in now way supporting future discrimination based upon names just because I find it slight comical.

Charles is a "black" name? I'd have said it's a relatively ordinary "white" name. At least here in England it is. I've know a few Charleses (is that the right pluralisation? I always get confused...), though they often use Charlie.

I don't know, I think these are just very common black names, but Charles doesn't seem to fit either way.

The thing about black American names is that many of them are either not actually African in origin or are just made up names that sound African. The African part of African-American culture was almost entirely destroyed so much of the attempt to recreate it has been artificial, like the Kwanza holiday.

Actually many African-Americans prefer the term black and don't like being called African-American and don't identify with their African heritage, but then many do.

This is where the distinction between African American and just African play in.

It's not about "to rebel against the man", it's about they have lost all of their ancestral culture. It was taken from them. And they are trying to reclaim a little bit of it, even though they don't really have much of any knowledge about it.

See my response to traitor fish

 

[Patroklos]

I think that many employers and people in general view African Americans with African sounding names more negatively than those who don't. It doesn't mean they are completely racist, but they are in a slight way. I am in now way supporting future discrimination based upon names just because I find it slight comical.

It has nothing to do with them being black or having African sounding names, as you aluded to nothing about them sounds African anyway. They simply sound stupid, and anyone with a stupid sounding name is going to have an uphill battle based primarily on allusions to economic background not racial. In general well to do black people don't name thier kids "Lafonda". I am not using your list though, "Terrance" is perfectly normal as opposed to some I have encountered like "Triashia" or my favorite from my sisters last class "La-a." That was the actual spelling of the name and you had to pronounce it "Ladasha." If you simply pronounced it phonetically you got accused of racism as my sister in fact was.

This is not unique to black people, just look at all the threads on Sarah Palin's kid's names on this very board. I am sure someone named "Charles" will get a call back before "Billy-Bob" any day of the week.

And lets not get started on how hard it will be for "Moon Unit" and "Crime Fighter" to be taken seriously, and they are from the upper crust of liberal white society.

 

[jtb1127]

It has nothing to do with them being black or having African sounding names, as you aluded to nothing about them sounds African anyway. They simply sound stupid, and anyone with a stupid sounding name is going to have an uphill battle based primarily on allusions to economic background not racial.

This too.

 

[Traitorfish]

"Race is not the only pertinent factor, ergo, race is not in any sense a factor"?

 

[Truthy]

Sorry for the edit but "this" didnt suffice.

It's not about "rebelling against the man", it's about asserting a cultural identity legitimate in itself, and not just as a replication of white (specifically, "Anglo-Saxon") culture. The very label "African-American", which you use in an apparently uncritical manner, is another example of this, having emerged as a more self-assured alternative to the cultureless, purely racial designation of "negro".


You think that white supremacism is "funny"? That's, um, awful.

The names aren't race related. They are related social-economic background. Uneducated people are more likely to name their children stupid names. White people can do it too.

"Race is not the only pertinent factor, ergo, race is not in any sense a factor"?

Slightly a factor, but really not. It should viewed more as one with a bad background and a stupid name is less likely to be hired for a job. Otherwise, demography will be alleged to be racist.

 

[Arakhor]

Fun fact - Charles/Karl/Carlos was a Continental name and was only introduced to Britain when Mary Queen of Scots brought the name to Scotland. Her grandson later became King of England and Scotland and various colonial names sprang from the royal connection.

 

[Traitorfish]

The names aren't race related. They are related social-economic background. Uneducated people are more likely to name their children stupid names. White people can do it too.

What makes a name "stupid", exactly? All I can see that is exceptionally "stupid" about the examples given is that they are associated with African-American culture. The fact that certain "white" names, associated with regional or ethnic cultures, are also discriminated against (although in the absence of any relevant studies, we cannot say to what extent) doesn't change things; in fact, it just shows that the level of institutionalised bigotry is even worse. Being prejudiced against Tyrone does not somehow become acceptable because you're also prejudiced against Seamus, Herschel and Cletus.

Slightly a factor, but really not. It should viewed more as one with a bad background and a stupid name is less likely to be hired for a job. Otherwise, demography will be alleged to be racist.

Counter-hypothesises do not constitute refutations. Just so you know.

 

[Quackers]

I'd discriminate against a name tbh

 

[Truthy]

What makes a name "stupid", exactly? All I can see that is exceptionally "stupid" about the examples given is that they are associated with African-American culture. The fact that certain "white" names, associated with regional or ethnic cultures, are also discriminated against (although in the absence of any relevant studies, we cannot say to what extent) doesn't change things; in fact, it just shows that the level of institutionalised bigotry is even worse. Being prejudiced against Tyrone does not somehow become acceptable because you're also prejudiced against Seamus, Herschel and Cletus.


Counter-hypothesises do not constitute refutations. Just so you know.

In most of these cases the parent will have no cultural identity with Africa yet they will insist upon naming the child something that they think sounds African, but in reality it will merely be a botched attempt at a unique name. It has nothing to do with Africa or African American culture; it stems from uneducated rural and urban people naming their children simply to be unique. These types of names do not reflect upon African American culture in any way other than in your attempts to create a non-existing race barrier. The trend of "creative" naming didn't even originate until the last half century. The onomastic inventiveness of the uneducated, in these cases, does little more than perpetuate the allusion of a lack of education. Why? Because often such names convey the thought of a mamma who hasn't spent a day in the education system. They don't have any cultural roots and go so far as to splice apostrophes and violate the English language (and of course the obligatory Qs). Apart from those so few elite and enlightened residents of your ivory tower, the consensus is that these names are stupid. Hence, why employers are less likely to hire.

 

[Traitorfish]

In most of these cases the parent will have no cultural identity with Africa yet they will insist upon naming the child something that they think sounds African, but in reality it will merely be a botched attempt at a unique name. It has nothing to do with Africa or African American culture; it stems from uneducated rural and urban people naming their children simply to be unique. These types of names do not reflect upon African American culture in any way other than in your attempts to create a non-existing race barrier. The trend of "creative" naming didn't even originate until the last half century. The onomastic inventiveness of the uneducated, in these cases, does little more than perpetuate the allusion of a lack of education. Why? Because often such names convey the thought of a mamma who hasn't spent a day in the education system. They don't have any cultural roots and go so far as to splice apostrophes and violate the English language (and of course the obligatory Qs). Apart from those so few elite and enlightened residents of your ivory tower, the consensus is that these names are stupid. Hence, why employers are less likely to hire.

Y'know, even setting aside your quite frankly circular dismissal of race as a pertinent factor, we're still with a blissful indifference to an apparently rampart amount of institutionalised class bigotry. So I don't really see how this constitutes a vindication of the discrimination in question.

(Oh, and, for the record, when you're trying to dispel allegations of widespread racism in your country, you might want to try to avoid A) referring to African-American parents as "mamas", and B) presumed them all to be single mothers. Because that's not even trying to hide it.)

 

[Truthy]

Y'know, even setting aside your quite frankly circular dismissal of race as a pertinent factor, we're still with a blissful indifference to an apparently rampart amount of institutionalised class bigotry. So I don't really see how this constitutes a vindication of the discrimination in question.

It is not bigotry to prefer an employee with a with a better background than one with a bad one. Besides, you began it by accusing people of being racist and asserted that stupid names are characteristic of blacks.

(Oh, and, for the record, when you're trying to dispel allegations of widespread racism in your country, you might want to try to avoid A) referring to African-American parents as "mamas", and B) presumed them all to be single mothers. Because that's not even trying to hide it.)

As I originally stated, all races can give their children stupid names. It's funny that you would assert that "mamma" and "single mothers" is specific to blacks. Personally, when I wrote the word "mamma" Cletus' wife from the Simpson's was what I was imagining.

Spoiler :

 

[Traitorfish]

It is not bigotry to prefer an employee with a with a better background than one with a bad one.

Err, "yes, it is"?

Besides, you began it by accusing people of being racist and asserted that stupid names are characteristic of blacks.

No, I observed that the "stupid" names listed previously were specifically chosen as names commonly associated with African-Americans. You're the one who went on the bizarre ramble about "botched attempts" at "unique" "African" names. (Because everyone remembers that famous chief, Tyrone Zulu. )

As I originally stated, all races can give their children stupid names.

And, again, the names in question were specifically associated with African-Americans, so until you can offer a corresponding study about non-racially connotative "stupid names", all you have is a counter-hypothesis.

It's funny that you would assert that "mamma" and "single mothers" is specific to blacks.

Noting a common stereotype does not mean accepting that stereotype. Seriously, don't try this "liberals are the real racists" stuff. It's just desperate.

Personally, when I wrote the word "mamma" Cletus' wife from the Simpson's was what I was imagining.

Spoiler :

Right, so we're back to the class-bigotry thing. That's only so much better.

 

[Patroklos]

"Race is not the only pertinent factor, ergo, race is not in any sense a factor"?

You might have had a point if the same thing was not observable for every other race.

No, I observed that the "stupid" names listed previously were specifically chosen as names commonly associated with African-Americans. You're the one who went on the bizarre ramble about "botched attempts" at "unique" "African" names. (Because everyone remembers that famous chief, Tyrone Zulu. )

Except the part of my post where I specifically did so that you conveniently failed to quote or address.

You have thus far manufactured the "blacks only" angle. The fact that you seen intent on denying redneck names or hippy names have te same effect betrayed your bias.

 

[Traitorfish]

You might have had a point if the same thing was not observable for every other race.

What do you mean by "the same thing"? Do you mean parents giving their kids "stupid names" (whatever that actually means), or those names resulting in discriminatory hiring practices? The former does not appear immediately relevant, and the latter is as yet unproven.

 

[Truthy]

Err, "yes, it is"?

No it's not. You're so busy imagining this idealistic class warfare.

No, I observed that the "stupid" names listed previously were specifically chosen as names commonly associated with African-Americans. You're the one who went on the bizarre ramble about "botched attempts" at "unique" "African" names. (Because everyone remembers that famous chief, Tyrone Zulu. )

I specifically referred to "African" because you originally were the one to associate these names with African American culture. (Go back to the first page). My only objective was to show that stupid names are not race linked, regardless of how bizarre that may seem.

And, again, the names in question were specifically associated with African-Americans, so until you can offer a corresponding study about non-racially connotative "stupid names", all you have is a counter-hypothesis.

And what study postulates that stupid names are linked with blacks as opposed to uneducated people?

Noting a common stereotype does not mean accepting that stereotype. Seriously, don't try this "liberals are the real racists" stuff. It's just desperate.

I'm not a republican and this has nothing to do with your political background. Just the fact you jumped to the conclusion that if I say "mamma" I'm referring to black people.

Right, so we're back to the class-bigotry thing. That's only so much better.

Hey, at least we're done mindlessly calling people racist, right?

 

[Arwon]

About the same number of people with my first name-last name combination are British as American or Canadian. A lot are actually black Americans. Not sure why.

edit: Actually, I just re-checked, and most are white now. Weird, when there were only 150 results in the Facebook search a few years ago, there was a much higher proportion of black guys. My African American name-sakes must have been early adopters!

 

[pi-r8]

I'm not a republican and this has nothing to do with your political background. Just the fact you jumped to the conclusion that if I say "mamma" I'm referring to black people.

Um... here's what you said.

These types of names do not reflect upon African American culture in any way other than in your attempts to create a non-existing race barrier. The trend of "creative" naming didn't even originate until the last half century. The onomastic inventiveness of the uneducated, in these cases, does little more than perpetuate the allusion of a lack of education. Why? Because often such names convey the thought of a mamma who hasn't spent a day in the education system. They don't have any cultural roots and go so far as to splice apostrophes and violate the English language (and of course the obligatory Qs). Apart from those so few elite and enlightened residents of your ivory tower, the consensus is that these names are stupid. Hence, why employers are less likely to hire.

You were obviously talking about black names. Just stop. Please.