BtS archipelago high seas tropics monarch

[silk1976]

Just a few things I wanted to point out:

I see nobody echoed my call for mysticism as an early tech, so I'd like to justify it. First, with a charismatic leader, it gets you a , and luxuries can be hard to come by, especially early.

While it is true that luxuries can be hard to come by (especially pre-calendar), we have wine in our start - which gets us once we get monarchy which will give us addt'l for having troops stationed in our cities.

Early happy cap is certainly something to be managed and alleviated where possible - so when you say Mysticism as an early tech - are you thinking after BW > sailing > masonry, or instead of one of those?

That is, if your culture border reaches a square adjacent to an offshore square, you can cross the ocean with your galley and make a landing on the new island.

???
I.... dont believe this is true. There's certainly no restriction for a galley that it has to stay within cultural borders. A galley cannot enter ocean squares - but that doesn't mean you can't snake it around the coast of an island to explore and/or drop off a settler. And I dont believe that restriction of galleys and ocean squares is removed if within your own cultural borders (I've certainly never found that to be the case).

I think we dodged a bullet not taking save 5. It's quite isolated. I've played it through 1000 AD and there was a longish stretch of hitting enter.

I'd think that while it may be isolated - the map is still only so large. Did you explore around the map at all, or turtle?
This applies to the GLH and its value as well. Obviously it's less valuable if there are no other civs but if you reached 1000 AD without discovering AI civs and opening borders, then yes - it is a relatively useless wonder.

The Colossus will have a short life span, assuming astronomy is high priority, which should be a no-brainer.

This is definately a good point.


The oracle may not be too much of a detour if we end up going on monarchy route relatively early (usually I've been picking that tech up as a trade later on rather then teching it myself).

 

[nocho]

Please throw it all out Dave, as long as none of us wins consistently at deity it's good to share viewpoints so we can all learn from eachother's views. And having read some SGs among deity guys, they seem to take forever to make their moves discussing everything along the way So it's good you mention all your thoughts!

On TGLH, I do consider it important. You're right it may not be huge in the beginning but I think it doesn't obsolete until Corporation so it will be huge once we reach Astronomy and just nice before that. The Pyramids is as always antoher priority and you may be right that we'll have to decide what should come first, especially since we don't seem to have an awful lot of production. Still would hate to miss TGLH on an archipelago map, seems so strong. We also have two islands in sight so that makes it extra worthwile anyway. Agree that Colossus although nice is less crucial as it obsoletes with Astronomy.

I think mysticism can wait until after BW+Saling+Masonry, we won't reach the happy cap until we have researched that, but I agree it will be nice to research it quickly after the first 3 techs, depending a bit on how fast we grow. We can then whip it quickly if need be.

 

[nocho]

While it is true that luxuries can be hard to come by (especially pre-calendar), we have wine in our start - which gets us once we get monarchy which will give us addt'l for having troops stationed in our cities.

To reach monarchy we'll have to research mysticism anyway and once we've done that, a quick monument being charismatic would be a no-brainer, I'd say .

???
I.... dont believe this is true. There's certainly no restriction for a galley that it has to stay within cultural borders. A galley cannot enter ocean squares - but that doesn't mean you can't snake it around the coast of an island to explore and/or drop off a settler. And I dont believe that restriction of galleys and ocean squares is removed if within your own cultural borders (I've certainly never found that to be the case).

It certainly is true. Here you have an example:



My first screenshot on CFC!

 

[Sengir]

Missed the Mysticism suggestion. It's a good one. I would slot it in after Masonry, but before Writing + Prereqs.

TGLighthouse will be usefull for us, as we can settle some islands ourselves pre-astronomy (unless it's all one really weirdly shaped island of course), Oracle might indeed be nice and is on the way to monarchy. I would probably not build the mids, but wouldn't mind if we did.

Just a few things I wanted to point out:
I.... dont believe this is true. There's certainly no restriction for a galley that it has to stay within cultural borders. A galley cannot enter ocean squares - but that doesn't mean you can't snake it around the coast of an island to explore and/or drop off a settler. And I dont believe that restriction of galleys and ocean squares is removed if within your own cultural borders (I've certainly never found that to be the case).

The point he's trying to make (I think) is that galleys can cross the ocean, if that ocean is within your culture. It works for trade routes at least, and IIRC also for boats be that workboats or galleys. Will check though.

Edit: well never mind the checking

 

[Dave Hartwick]

Early happy cap is certainly something to be managed and alleviated where possible - so when you say Mysticism as an early tech - are you thinking after BW > sailing > masonry, or instead of one of those?

After BW or after masonry, depending on the need to pop a border on a new city. Carthage will culturally expand by itself.

???
I.... dont believe this is true. There's certainly no restriction for a galley that it has to stay within cultural borders. A galley cannot enter ocean squares - but that doesn't mean you can't snake it around the coast of an island to explore and/or drop off a settler. And I dont believe that restriction of galleys and ocean squares is removed if within your own cultural borders (I've certainly never found that to be the case).

I didn't say it very well. What I mean is, a galley can cross an ocean square if the square is within your borders. On save 5, there are islands not far from the start point, but all are at least one ocean square away.

I did try to expand quickly, I just found it difficult. I'll attach the save so you can see what I mean if you like.

We'd need to research hereditary rule to exploit the wine, of course, which is off the tech path I have in mind. Happiness wasn't an issue with the gems, representation gov't, and low populations everywhere but the capital, so the +1 from the monuments was unimportant in my play of save 5. Maybe a bit in the early game. I do think that monuments should be considered as they'll speed up expansion across ocean squares compared to libraries.

I'd think that while it may be isolated - the map is still only so large. Did you explore around the map at all, or turtle?
This applies to the GLH and its value as well. Obviously it's less valuable if there are no other civs but if you reached 1000 AD without discovering AI civs and opening borders, then yes - it is a relatively useless wonder.

I played on with save 5 and reached the other civs. GNP shot up impressively, thanks to cothons, TGL, and a short-lived monopoly on foreign trade. Prior to that, due to no foreign trade and only four cities, it brought in 4 commerce a turn. I'm not saying TGL is not worth getting but rather that it doesn't pay as well as it usually does. It doesn't run out until corporation, so at least it's durable.

Ah, I see Sengir and nocho beat me to the explanation.

I'd like to ask again, are there any other wonders we should consider?

 

[nocho]

Dave, just to satisfy my curiosity, could you upload start 3 as well? I wanna see what was out there... Crap probably (not crab )! Thanks in advance.

 

[silk1976]

To reach monarchy we'll have to research mysticism anyway and once we've done that, a quick monument being charismatic would be a no-brainer, I'd say .

For some stupid reason, the charismatic and +1 with the monument didn't quite set in until just now.

It certainly is true. Here you have an example:

Spoiler :

Well I'll be damned! I WAS not aware of that! I stand corrected - Well done, sir!

(I have a feeling I'll be referring people to my new sig more and more often - as I learn more about the game and feel more 'justified' to speak up, I'll probably be proven wrong more often than not!)

I hope this kind of discussion can continue in this SG - if so, this could be an exceptionally good game for learning.

 

[Dave Hartwick]

No prob, nocho.

I put together a list of the wonders on the path to Astronomy. Wonders really are easier to get on this sort of map, in my experience, so I'd like to think about incorporating one into our strategy. I'm going to replay save 5 with BW>Myst and chop out Stonehenge in Carthage and chop/whip the Oracle for Code of Laws in the second city and see how I go.

Stonehenge. Mysticism, gives those monuments I like to go on about. Costs 120, gives 8 culture and 2 prophet points, which would help with a shrine strategy.

The Great Wall. There are few barbarians on these maps, so I'd think it's useless unless somebody can think up something sneaky. Cost 150.

Already talked about the Colossus, but here's the stats: cost 250, 6 culture, 2 merchant points. Good for commerce but expires with Astronomy.

THL: Cost 200, 6 culture, 2 merchant points, we've talked about it.

Hanging Gardens: costs 300, is on the tech path with Math, 2 engineer points, 6 culture, never expires. Could be good if we get some decent islands that will support bigger populations.

The Mausoleum of Maussollos: also on the tech path to Astronomy with Calendar. Increases golden age duration, and I don't know much about those. Cost 450, 10 culture, 2 artist points.

The Oracle: Costs 150, 8 culture, 2 prophet points. Could be exploited as part of a religious strategy to go for Code of Laws. Metal Casting is another option I can think of.

The Pyramids: I like this one for enabling Representation, but it's pricy at 500 hammers. 6 culture, 2 engineer points.

 

[Sengir]

Stonehenge: maybe, if possible. I prefer Great Lighthouse if I have to choose between them, but who says we can't have both. Depends I guess.
TGW: no. The barbarians on the island (only works for landmass) will be pretty much non-existant and I would build it for spy points only.
Colossus: expires to fast.
TGLH: Yes if at all possible.
Hanging Gardens: can go either way with this one. Will depend on situation by then.
MoM: Same.
Oracle: Same as stonehenge: we can built it if possible, but I prefer TGLH for the longer term.
Pyramids: no, we can run HR soon enough and won't need the represatation bonus that much.

It all depends on the land (or water) however. If we have room, I'd rather build settlers + defense instead of wonders.

 

[Arlborn]

OK, here is my turnset guys! Just so you know, I've played 22 turns, that is when BW came in. And no, no bronze!

Turn 1: Settle in place, started scouting, started on workboat! Also started on BW.

Spoiler :

Turn 2: Nothing, Nada, Zip!

Turn 3: zzzz

Turn 4: zzzz

...

Turn 9: Finished exploring our huge island!

Spoiler :

Turn 10: Warrior going back to capital!

Turn 11: zzz

Turn 12: zzz

Turn 13: I see we have some religious AI:

Spoiler :

Turn 14: zzz

Turn 15: Warrior gets fortified.

Turn 16: zzzz

Turn 17: Grown to size 2; 'mm'(not really) so workboat gets done asap.

Spoiler :

Turn 18: zzzz

Turn 19: zzz

Turn 20: Workboat done > works clam! Start on worker!

Spoiler :

Turn 21: zzz

Turn 22: Bronze Work comes in, but nothing pops up in our map! I didn't revolt to slavery yet, and sailing can be changed, no turn spent on it yet.

Spoiler :

View of our capital:

Spoiler :

Final observations: Well, train a workboat after the worker? There is not much for him to explore though, I can see that isle is very small already, but maybe there is another one besides that, or at least another sea resource... Hopefully there is something there, because I don't see many good places to settle a second city heh..


Anyway, what is our work gonig to do once he is out? I think he can only mine and chop for now, no?


About the tech path, I'd go with Sailing > Mansory > Myst.

Roster:

Arlborn just played
Sengir playing now
Loki Strikes on deck
Dave Hartwick
nocho
silk1976
dualmaster

 

[Dave Hartwick]

Well, had a couple runs at save 5, and only managed to get Stonehenge once, the Oracle never. TGL and the Pyramids were easy to get, but I'm not sure why.

The Hanging Gardens went up somewhere around 700 AD, but by that time I was trying to build units. My units consisted of 1 warrior, 1 galley, 1 worker, and the odd missionary up until then because I never researched archery and had no metal. With an isolated start, no fog for barbarians to spawn in, and tiny populations, you don't need an army for a while. With hardly any land to improve you don't need many workers, either.

Code of Laws for Confucianism is feasible.

I never ran into Ragnar or Willem so I wonder if I messed up the game generation.

 

[Dave Hartwick]

Thanks, Alborn. I downloaded the save because I wanted to make sure about something.

Spoiler :

The tile one south and two west of the wine to the extreme south west is a coastal tile, so there's land down there for sure.

Looks like a tough start, but there's room for at least few cities. Hopefully there's seafood near the eastern island.

We'll want to get Sailing soon for a galley. I'd suggest settling to the far north on the same island as the capitol first.

Sengir's turn.
Loki Strikes, whose handle I just got, is on deck.

 

[silk1976]

I'd say switch from worker to another workboat, especially since there is no bronze to hook up.

Once sailing comes in, it looks like we'll have to get a few galleys out to start exploring around.

 

[Sengir]

OK, got it, will play in tonight (4hours from now) or tomorrow morning (16 hours from) depending on discussion.

About the turnset: too bad that you settled in place, but what's done is done. We will have to put a city on the northern tip ( either extreme north plains or the grass tile one south of it> that would mean less ocean but a bit of overlap.)

Plans:
Tech: I agree with Arlborn on the techpath, Sailing > Masonry > Myst
Builds: finish worker > workboat chop > workboat (whip) > workboat (regrowing for scouting) > settler. No need for military.

Worker will chop then mine then what? Prechop the other two hill forests for a wonder probably.


That's it I guess. Not much to be discussed yet.

 

[nocho]

OK, got it, will play in tonight (4hours from now) or tomorrow morning (16 hours from) depending on discussion.

About the turnset: too bad that you settled in place, but what's done is done. We will have to put a city on the northern tip ( either extreme north plains or the grass tile one south of it> that would mean less ocean but a bit of overlap.)

Plans:
Tech: I agree with Arlborn on the techpath, Sailing > Masonry > Myst
Builds: finish worker > workboat chop > workboat (whip) > workboat (regrowing for scouting) > settler. No need for military.

Worker will chop then mine then what? Prechop the other two hill forests for a wonder probably.


That's it I guess. Not much to be discussed yet.

I also would have preferred settling the wine, but it's too late for that now.

Tech path ok with me, maybe after that Agriculture to irrigate rice and Pottery for a granary.
Buils: I'd consider building a lighthouse after the chopped workboat. We'll need it anywat for TGLH and obviously gives extra food. Whip it with the overflow going into the 3rd workboat. Settling asap is not that crucial on this map I guess.

If you're not going to navigate there shortly, walk over with the warrioir to the SW wine to see the extra sea tile and maybe some coast...

Wonderwise I'd prioritise TGLH, Pyramids and afterwards Great Library. Other wonders are less important IMHO.

 

[Arlborn]

Thanks, Alborn. I downloaded the save because I wanted to make sure about something.

Good catch, I didn't see that one.

Well, about the setling, I see that it might have been better in the long run to, indeed, settle on the wine, but I believe 4 people, out of 7, told me to settle on place. That is majority, so I went ahead.

Oh well, nice to have a big roster and active roster so some people might catch what others missed!

I am just glad there is more land to the south! Blind me.


Also, we should be careful with chopping for workboats. Better to just whip(maybe chop once for the last workboat) because we should save some forests in case we decide to go for some wonders early on.

I also think that the next workboat should explore the small isle to the west before settling on the clam. Just to be sure wheter there is something there, like a water resource, or not.

 

[Sengir]

If we are not going to chop a workboat, I'm not going to finish that worker, but slot in another workboat first, probably two. Comments? After that probably worker > lighthouse GLH.
I'm not for scouting with the second wb, but will do with the third as it needs to go round the bottom anyway.

 

[Arlborn]

If we are not going to chop a workboat, I'm not going to finish that worker, but slot in another workboat first, probably two. Comments? After that probably worker > lighthouse GLH.
I'm not for scouting with the second wb, but will do with the third as it needs to go round the bottom anyway.

I didn't say not to chop, just to be careful with what we chop, as our production is not that good.

And I didn't mean to explore the south isle, I meant only the small isle to the west, that'd take only 3-4 turns. But yeah, no hurry there.

 

[nocho]

If we are not going to chop a workboat, I'm not going to finish that worker, but slot in another workboat first, probably two. Comments? After that probably worker > lighthouse GLH.
I'm not for scouting with the second wb, but will do with the third as it needs to go round the bottom anyway.

Yeah maybe it's better to switch directly to a workboat (or 2) and then finish the worker. Arlborn is probably right that we should save our chops and you're right that in that case our worker couldn't do anything right now so there's no sense in finishing him now. So everybody is right Having the food around, whipping, if necessary, is probably better for a while.

 

[Dave Hartwick]

I'm in favor of rapid expansion. We have a good city to whip and maybe a chop for a settler.

I don't think we need to worry much about exploring the islands as we're almost 100 % sure of settling both anyway, even if the SW one is a single tile. Settling them ASAP would give more time in case we need cultural expansion to cross ocean.

I know I suggested exploring with a workboat earlier but now that I've played a few more high sea level games I think it can be a waste of time until you come across a bigger landmass.

The only wonder we're interested in right now is TGL, I believe. I do like the Pyramids for representation, it's pretty powerful, but I'm willing to go with HR, especially seeing how we'll need to research it for the wine.

I've played a few starts like this now, and I tell you, getting the TGL should be a piece of cake. I don't think we need to be cautious with our forests. It might be an idea to leave two standing together in an roadless area to give them a chance to grow. It would take some luck but it happens.

I'd also like to see two hills mined, seeing how we have the tech anyway. So you could do some mining and chop the southwestern forest. That gives three chops, leaving 5 forests with room for one to possibly maybe someday grow.

The main reason to take BW right away is to chop and whip, right? See if you can't get another net out, the mines, and a settler.

Sailing can wait for a little while if you'd rather get agriculture. Can it wait long enough for pottery so the whipping is more efficient?