BTS info for the Comprehensive UU Guide

[johnny_rico]

Guerrilla 3 gives +25% hills attack and a 50% withdrawal chance. Since both Celt leaders are charismatic, it's easy to get guerrilla 3 with the Gallic warrior.

Wow! +50% withdrawl. You could get some Horse Archers with some insane withdrawl percentages. With the Dun, Barracks, and Stable, you're looking at 6XP HA with guerilla 1 out of the gate. Add guerilla 3 and they should have 70% withdrawl if I'm reading that right. I realize the HA is not a UU, but that's still nice. With the Great General withdrawl promotion, you should be able to make a unit that can't die when attacking, i.e. 100% withdrawl.

 

[carl corey]

Guerilla 3 is for Archery, Melee (I assume the Gallic Warrior and its upgrades, since Guerilla 1 isn't for Melee) and Gunpowder units. Mounted units cannot get it.

 

[Elandal]

Guerilla is available to Recon, Archery and Gunpowder units, and Gallic Warrior - not mounted units. So can't boost their withdraw chance with that Also, withdraw chance is capped at 90% in case you otherwise might get over that.

 

[Scaphism]

I could see a strong case being made for using a GG on a stack of Gallic Warriors to give them all Guerilla 3. Is the GG-specific withdrawal promotion available to melee units? (Tactics: +30% withdrawal)
If so you'd have a leader who could be almost fearless about taking on the strongest defender and a bunch of swordsmen not afraid to follow after. Throw in a medic unit for backup and you'd have a pretty vicious hill-crawling, city-raiding army.

 

[slobberinbear]

When writing up the Native Americans, you may want to consider including the UB as well. The dog warrior itself isn't great but combined with the 6 xp archery units out of the gate, Sitting Bull is the ultimate defender. With an aggressive neighbor. you can really rack up the xps for your troops and if building the great wall, great generals will follow twice as fast. On top of that, some vicious pillaging stacks can be assembled.

The Dog Warrior isn't great? +100% vs. other melee units? No resources needed and only the bronze working tech needed? Did I miss something?

Name me another ancient era unit that can attack other infantry units at will, regardless of terrain. Name me another ancient era unit that can defend a city from any same-era unit's attack. As as you've noted, they are very hard to counter as pillagers, unless your foe has hooked up horses and has the horse tile well-defended.

True, dog warriors are not good at attacking cities defended by archers. That is the sole area in which they are inferior to generic axemen. However, the BtS AI produces mixed melee stacks now to defend cities, when it has the tech and resources. This means that your dog warriors will likely have utility in city-busting, particuarly in the classical period.

For a pillaging raid, stack defense, city defense, and combat in the field, Dog Warriors are superior for their era. In the open field, they are at even odds with a Praetorian. Let that sink in.

 

[carl corey]

The GG promotions are available for all units. I assume you can't get Medic III with armored and gunships as you can't get Medic I with them anyway, but other than that everything's available.

 

[Scaphism]

The GG promotions are available for all units. I assume you can't get Medic III with armored and gunships as you can't get Medic I with them anyway, but other than that everything's available.

AFAIK that's not true. Tactics, Leadership, Combat 6, Medic 3, and Morale are only available to the unit the GG is attached to.

 

[Percy]

He meant that regardless of the unit type (Mounted, Armored, Gunpowder, etc.), the promotions offered by a Great General are the same.

i.e. attaching a GG unlocks Tactics whatever the unit it attaches to.

 

[johnny_rico]

The Dog Warrior isn't great? +100% vs. other melee units? No resources needed and only the bronze working tech needed? Did I miss something?

Name me another ancient era unit that can attack other infantry units at will, regardless of terrain. Name me another ancient era unit that can defend a city from any same-era unit's attack. As as you've noted, they are very hard to counter as pillagers, unless your foe has hooked up horses and has the horse tile well-defended.

True, dog warriors are not good at attacking cities defended by archers. That is the sole area in which they are inferior to generic axemen. However, the BtS AI produces mixed melee stacks now to defend cities, when it has the tech and resources. This means that your dog warriors will likely have utility in city-busting, particuarly in the classical period.

For a pillaging raid, stack defense, city defense, and combat in the field, Dog Warriors are superior for their era. In the open field, they are at even odds with a Praetorian. Let that sink in.

No. You didn't miss anything and echoed close to what I said. In fact, in another thread somewhere at the forums, I listed just how useful the dog warrior is. I simply don't think the dog warrior is great because it is unlikely they will be effective in taking cities. Now we can make the dog warrior great (you've got no copper or iron and the enemy is attacking with swords and you can beat them down with dog warriors - that's great, but also an unlikely scenario). It is interesting you point out they can defend against anything in the ancient era. That kind of bugs me considering their UB is supposed to allow for the same thing for their archers. A CG2 archer will hold up better defending a city than a combat 2 dog warrior.

It's just a difference in opinion and mine is the great UUs of the early game allow me to conquer territory (Immortal, phalanx, war chariot, Quechua, jaguar, praetorian, vulture).

To those here that pointed out mounted units can't get guerilla promotions and withdrawl chances cap at 90% -- thanks (CC, Elandal), I forgot both of those things.

 

[Scaphism]

He meant that regardless of the unit type (Mounted, Armored, Gunpowder, etc.), the promotions offered by a Great General are the same.

i.e. attaching a GG unlocks Tactics whatever the unit it attaches to.

I misunderstood. Thanks for clearing it up.

 

[cabert]

dog warriors look pretty vulnerable to less costly chariots, don't they

 

[Dnomal]

Now that grenadiers have been pushed back signiicantly in BTS, the Janissary is actually a longer-lasting UU. Granted it's still weak against other Musketman, but with Sulieman you can get more military instructors, countering this.

The Cataphract is very powerful, and doesn't have a counter, only collateral damage and elephants can really challenge it. Furthermore if you do beeline you can end up with cataphracts v Archers (mainly because the AI diverts funds to espionage).

 

[Toranth]

No. You didn't miss anything and echoed close to what I said. In fact, in another thread somewhere at the forums, I listed just how useful the dog warrior is. I simply don't think the dog warrior is great because it is unlikely they will be effective in taking cities. Now we can make the dog warrior great (you've got no copper or iron and the enemy is attacking with swords and you can beat them down with dog warriors - that's great, but also an unlikely scenario). It is interesting you point out they can defend against anything in the ancient era. That kind of bugs me considering their UB is supposed to allow for the same thing for their archers. A CG2 archer will hold up better defending a city than a combat 2 dog warrior.

It's just a difference in opinion and mine is the great UUs of the early game allow me to conquer territory (Immortal, phalanx, war chariot, Quechua, jaguar, praetorian, vulture).

In my experience, the new BTS AI has the tendancy to build metal units at a much higher rate than before. If you face an opponent that gets Bronze hooked up fast, you'll see that cities will be defended with mostly axemen/spearmen/swordsmen. And versus those units, cry havoc! and unleash the Dog Warriors.

 

[slobberinbear]

dog warriors look pretty vulnerable to less costly chariots, don't they

No question that chariots will own the dog warriors and that they're more situational city attackers than Axemen. My point was that they're a still a great unique unit. Plus, they have a nice animation, which is always a bonus. No one is saying that they're invulnerable.

 

[slobberinbear]

No. You didn't miss anything and echoed close to what I said. In fact, in another thread somewhere at the forums, I listed just how useful the dog warrior is. I simply don't think the dog warrior is great because it is unlikely they will be effective in taking cities. Now we can make the dog warrior great (you've got no copper or iron and the enemy is attacking with swords and you can beat them down with dog warriors - that's great, but also an unlikely scenario). It is interesting you point out they can defend against anything in the ancient era. That kind of bugs me considering their UB is supposed to allow for the same thing for their archers. A CG2 archer will hold up better defending a city than a combat 2 dog warrior.

It's just a difference in opinion and mine is the great UUs of the early game allow me to conquer territory (Immortal, phalanx, war chariot, Quechua, jaguar, praetorian, vulture).

To those here that pointed out mounted units can't get guerilla promotions and withdrawl chances cap at 90% -- thanks (CC, Elandal), I forgot both of those things.

I hear what you're saying -- that the totem pole makes great defenders, so why should the dog warrior fulfill the same role. I think there is some overlap, but it's not identical.

While Sitting Bull is protective, he can make his barracks + totem pole archers a wide variety of things -- not just CG III / Drill I monsters. He can go Guerilla II. He can go Drill III. He can work in shock or cover. Lots of options for different roles. Similarly, the dog warrior can be used for different roles -- pillager, city attacker (situationally), open field warrior.

The truth is that a Dog Warrior is superior to a generic axeman in every way, except when attacking a city defended by archers. That is the standard by which their utility should be measured. Nobody is saying that Dog Warriors let you skip Iron Working and swordsmen, unlike other civs *cough* Sumeria *cough*.

 

[aelf]

I agree that Sitting Bull gives you quite a challenge in prioritising. I will try to refer to the Totem Pole when writing the article about the Dog Soldier.

 

[I EAT CRAYONS]

With Sitting Bull's Protective trait and the Totem Pole, Drill IV archery units are easily attainable.
I forget who suggested this but: beeline Feudalism (the Oracle helps) and your let your Drill IV Longbows take over the world!

 

[Scaphism]

I think there's a large temptation to grab Stonehenge with Sitting Bull but if you want to be aggressive really early I don't think it's a great move. It ties up a lot of production that's needed elsewhere. If you want to rush and clobber something then Mining+Bronze gets you there fastest.

Mysticism (50)+ Hunting (40) + Archery (60) isn't nearly as strong out the gate and doesn't give anywhere near the production that Mining (50)+Bronzeworking (120)does.

A bit later on you can afford Barracks + Monuments for 6xp units - unless you're facing War Chariots and you'll want some archers ASAP.

If you have lots of room then Stonehenge isn't bad - it saves you from having to build a Monument and a Barracks in new cities - you can focus on growing and growing and growing, which could allow you to really flex philosophical.

I do think Sitting Bull is really strong early. He starts with fishing so he could tech and grow quickly on a coastal start, has the security to settle wherever he likes without worrying about metal. Dog Soldiers make an early (immediate neighbor) rush possible, otherwise you REX as much as possible which plays to his strengths. I'm not great at using philosophical leaders but it's a highly regarded trait here. Cultivate whichever type of GP you like. A Renaissance/Medieval military push is possible with heavily promoted longbows/crossbows and Gunpowder units.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

Oracle slingshot to Feudalism with Sitting Bull is the best move, and definitely achievable on Monarch - you can build monuments or capture stonehenge. Its also extremely fun to be attacking with longbows - and its surprising how flexible highly promoted longbows are. Not just drill 4, but you can get the cover, shock and formation promotions off the drill line. You basically don't need anything else other than catapults, and you only need them once the AI has longbows themselves.

The other big change for Sitting Bull and all the protective leaders is that drill is a gunpowder promotion. I find this makes protective a lot more powerful - from gunpowder onwards its better than aggressive now. Also castles and walls are a lot stronger in defense and castles help with espionage.

 

[aelf]

Oracle slingshot to Feudalism with Sitting Bull is the best move, and definitely achievable on Monarch - you can build monuments or capture stonehenge. Its also extremely fun to be attacking with longbows - and its surprising how flexible highly promoted longbows are. Not just drill 4, but you can get the cover, shock and formation promotions off the drill line. You basically don't need anything else other than catapults, and you only need them once the AI has longbows themselves.

The other big change for Sitting Bull and all the protective leaders is that drill is a gunpowder promotion. I find this makes protective a lot more powerful - from gunpowder onwards its better than aggressive now. Also castles and walls are a lot stronger in defense and castles help with espionage.

Don't get carried away now. This is for the UU guide, not the Sitting Bull ALC