BTS info for the Comprehensive UU Guide

[InvisibleStalke]

Don't get carried away now. This is for the UU guide, not the Sitting Bull ALC

Fair enough. Just the way I've been playing Sitting Bull, the longbow IS the UU. I built maybe 3 dog soldiers. Not that they weren't useful, but the problem is that the longbow strategy is so exciting it precludes an early rush and makes you focus on building at the beginning.

For me the best thing about it is that it provides near total barb defense with no resources required. Yes you are protective with great archers, but you don't really want to prioritize archery early if you want to pursue a feudalism slingshot or the pyramids.

 

[jason77024]

The other big change for Sitting Bull and all the protective leaders is that drill is a gunpowder promotion.

Don't forget Zara! Barracks + anything else (Theocracy, Mil Instructor, etc.) = Drill 4 Oromos right out of the gate.
Who wants 4-7 first strikes against longbows?

 

[aelf]

Thanks, guys.

Anymore ideas? How about the Balista Elephant? Carrack? Bowman? And the rest?

 

[r_rolo1]

Carrack is good if you want to ReX a little overseas, but the lack of bombarding and of pillaging ability ( it's still a caravel in that regard ), and the somehow limited unit space ( 2 units ) makes somewhat hard to do a full anphibious assault against a foreign civ ( unless you can get to medieval units earlier that anyone else )
And don't forget that Samurai now start with Drill I ( adding to their original 2 first strikes) making it a even more powerful unit.
Bowman is basically a anti-axe rush unit, not exactly a big rush unit ( good for MP, methinks)
The conquistador was severely nerfed, because of being now a Cuirasser substitute ( instead of the knight ). Arriving so late ( with MT ) makes his anti-melee bonus almost useless. A similar comment can be made about the cossacks ( because they need rifling now, most likely they will face rifles now instead of pikes)

 

[jason77024]

Thanks, guys.

Anymore ideas? How about the Balista Elephant? Carrack? Bowman? And the rest?

Ballista elephants strike me as really (really) situational. You have to have ivory. Now in BtS you have to have HBR, so the Oracle-Construction gambit is nerfed. Then the jumbos get their special attack only when you are not attacking cities, but since the movement is still 1, field ops aren't great either. OK, so it's great for head to head against a mixed AI SoD including knights, but beyond that?

If people are having lots of success with them, I respectfully withdraw my quibble. Rec. for Firaxis: Maybe remove the HBR requirement for Ballista Elephants (not War Elephants)?


Bowman is a curious one, eh? A great defensive unit attached to a leader that has REX!! written all over him. No really good counter until horse archers, and even that is kind of a wash.

 

[Slobadog]

Ah the Ballisata Elephant. I've been experimenting with it for a few days now and have noticed some useful aspects of it.


1.) Its only effective against mixed stacks that include mounted units. Fortuntatly the AI is really good at constantly churning out mixed stacks. The AI is also unable to adapt and split its stacks in response to the BE so when you encounter a AI stack what you see is what you get.

2.) Ballista Elephants can target mounted units, fight an easy battle with them with out much risk and get easy XPs.


3.) They can attack mounted units almost everywhere no matter what terrain they are on since mounted units do not get defensive bonuses. Handy for damaging those pesky stacks that like to hide in the jungle.

4.) Their special abillity makes them more effective than a regular war elephant during the medieval era because the newly emerging elephant counters can be easily ignored in favor of those shiny knights.


5.) Overall it has a very long lifespan that includes the classical, medievel, and (with the right promotions) the Renissance.


6.) The Ballista Elephant's special ability can the undermine the "best defender selection system" and cause a entire mixed stack to unravel.


For example: Russian stack includes horse archers, axmen, chariots, catapults and spear men. Khmer stack includes Ballista elelphants, axmen, spearmen, horse archers and swordmen.

Khmer starts battle. Ballista's attack and kill horse archers. Khmer's axmen attack without a hard counter. Russian axmen are still an even match and Khmer loseses many axmen. Lets assume attrition favors Khmer. Maybe we assume Khmer had 1 or 2 elephants left to tip the scale. Khmer's horse archers still find a hard counter. But flanking promos save them and some collaterall damage is done to all Russian catapults. Khmer swordmen attack with out any counter, finish off the catapults and kill all Russian spearmen. Khmer spearmen attack with out counter and destroy the chariots. Russia has no stack.


This is obviously a very flawed battle where attrition and luck played a role. Still under normal circumstances without a BE this battle would have been impossible unless you had vastly superior numbers or catapults. Superior numbers is too expensive and available catapults may have all died during pevious city assaults or whatever. (Especially after the BTS seige nerf.) Also the results of mixed stack battles will always vary as the stack content varies from civ to civ.



7.) The BE is highly effective on the defence. Mix it with other units and go intercept any enemy stack that arrives in your territory. Using your road network to reach and attack the enemy before they reach you.

8.) The BE is not as good on the offence since its special ability dosn't work on cities. Another disadvantage is that the AI will have the speed advantage inside its own lands and the competance to use it. Thus they might possibly attack you first. Which is especially a problem if they have catapults to bombard you with. Still when on the attack one would probably bring BEs along anyway since its still powerful at strength 8.



9.) Ivory can be hard to find and even rare in some cases. The Khmer though are well suited to make the most of the situation. Their free scout speeds up their exploration and the creative trait assures that any new city will culturally grab the ivory before any competitors arrive.


Overall its a situational UU that with proper planning can encounter favorable situations quite often. I've had some games where i was cutting the teeth off of stacks left and right. But i've also encountered opponents who had no horses or had elephants instead. So its a UU that is quite devestating when the battlefield is right but that is very ordinary otherwise.

 

[jason77024]

Just a few points:

1.) Its only effective against mixed stacks that include mounted units. Fortuntatly the AI is really good at constantly churning out mixed stacks. The AI is also unable to adapt and split its stacks in response the BE so when you encounter a AI stack what you see is what you get.

Question for Blake or anyone more familiar with the new AI than I am: Do AI players now give greater weight to their neighbors' UUs?

2.) Ballista Elephants can target mounted units, fight an easy battle with them with out much risk and get easy XPs.

This is the same point as #1

4.) Their special abillity makes them more effective than a regular war elephant during the medieval era because the newly emerging elephant counters can be easily ignored in favor of those shiny knights.

Assuming the AI doesn't turtle, yes.

5.) Overall it has a very long lifespan that includes the classical, medievel, and (with the right promotions) the Renissance.

Maybe this would have been a more powerful unit in Warlords, as a counter to those who got MilTrad early and sent cav & maces to attack.

6.) [battle description deleted...]
This is obviously a very flawed battle where attrition and luck played a role.

Not only that, you assume that the Khmer swords would get to attack spears instead of chariots. Isn't the computer more likely to have chariots defend against the swords, making the last round spear vs spear?

7.) The BE is highly effective on the defence. Mix it with other units and go intercept any enemy stack that arrives in your territory. Using your road network to reach and attack the enemy before they reach you.

OK, but that's an attack (an attack in your own land), not defense... On defense, the BE is no different from a standard WE. In fact, when on the attack in a foreign civ, the defender can use his own roads to hit the BE first in the field. And elephants obviously are the only single-move mounted units, meaning in an opponent's territory, mounted units can avoid the jumbos. So as long as you are attacking invaders (other than the Mongols?) within your own borders, it can be a good choice.

So its a UU that is quite devestating when the battlefield is right but that is very ordinary otherwise.

I am still willing to be convinced otherwise, but yeah, right now I am still at "really (really) situational."

 

[aelf]

Sorry for the lack of activity. I've been rather busy in the past week.

I was going to add the part about Woodsman III to the Jaguar entry, but I can't remember the full detail of what it gives. Can anyone help me?

 

[r_rolo1]

Woodsman III-

2 first strikes

Heals units in the same tile extra 15% damage/turn ( adds with medic promos AFAIK )

+ 50% Jungle attack

+50% Forest attack

Source : BTS Civiliopedia

 

[Percy]

Sorry for the lack of activity. I've been rather busy in the past week.

I was going to add the part about Woodsman III to the Jaguar entry, but I can't remember the full detail of what it gives. Can anyone help me?

+2 First strikes
Heals units in the same tile extra 15% damage/turn
+50% Jungle Attack (not defense)
+50% Forest Attack

EDIt: damn, too slow

 

[aelf]

Thanks!

 

[carl corey]

Heals units in the same tile extra 15% damage/turn ( adds with medic promos AFAIK )

It adds only with medic promotions on the same unit. See the thread in my signature for extensive tests on the matter.

 

[aelf]

It's done.

 

[r_rolo1]

It adds only with medic promotions on the same unit. See the thread in my signature for extensive tests on the matter.

Thanks for the correction, carl corey.

 

[kniteowl]

here's an unorthodox way to use a bowmen

I say bowmen make pretty good defenders.

Besides their very CHEAP and have VERY good odd defending against Prats and Macemen.

Since they'll be used for mostly defending.

an unpromoted bowmen gets 50% vs melee + 50% Natural City garrison + 25% Fortify vs an unpromoted Prat/Mace.

So a defending bowmen vs a Prat/Macemen

(3*2.25) = 6.75 str vs 8 str

obviously an attacking bowmen will have worst odds because they won't have the extra fortify and city garrison bonuses.

Now if you included cultural defense, hills, first strikes and city garrison promotions, their odds vs Prats or Mace start to become more even.

a CG1 bowmen

(3* 2.45) 7.35 str vs 8 str

a hilled bowmen

(3* 2.75) 8.25 str vs 8 str

Chances are you could beat Maces and Prats is you stacked a good number of these units

Comparing Hammer for Hammer, an archer cost 25H a Prat 45H and a Mace 70H, This is just a generalization but you could more or less build 2 bowmen for every Prat, or 3 bowmen for every Mace.

The down side is the extra unit cost, but that's ok because of your Organized trait should cut down on other cost,therefore you can use that's extra saved income for units.

Since the Leader for babylon is Agg/Org you'll tend you war often so you'll want a stack of bowmen to defend recently capture cities and possibly a spear to fend off Horse archers and elephants.

This is just theory, I haven't played with them but This is the only way I can think of to leverage their bonuses.

 

[SickCycle]

The new Ethiopian UU..

In my opinion it's one of the strongest in the game, rivals that of a praetorian. I'll attach a screen shot of what I'm talking about.

In this screenshot of the Oromo Warrior notice it has Drill I, Drill II, Drill III, and Drill IV ... with only 5xp's.

4-7 first strikes.. at 5xp.. seriously, they were taking out entire cities without even taking a single point of damage it was insane, they never stopped to heal once, not to mention -60% collateral..

It's out of focus so just click zoom in once!

 

[jason77024]

The new Ethiopian UU.. [...]

In this screenshot of the Oromo Warrior notice it has Drill I, Drill II, Drill III, and Drill IV ... with only 5xp's.

4-7 first strikes.. at 5xp.. [...]

Please refer to #42 above.

 

[CivDude86]

But don't forget knights are immune to 1st strikes so bring some combat1 formation Ormos along or pikemen.

 

[Hackapell]

I will just add on to what the other people have been saying,but thanks aelf for this wonderful guide!

I'm a bit stunned that no one's mentioned the Vulture. The vulture is an even stronger axeman, perfect for those early rushes. In fact, given that Gilgamesh has vultures for more powerful axe-rushes, protective archers to defend new territorial aquisicions, early and cheap courthouses to push down maintinence, and creative to shore up cultural defense, Gilga seems talior-made for rushing early, and then choosing your victory, whether peacefully or by conquest.

Another UU that's not mentioned often is the Landsknecht. With 100% vs. both melee and mounted, the landsknecht has little to fear on the medieval batlefield. the only hard counter to it is the crossbowmen, but have some knights tag along to stop that. With Landsknechts, Knights, and trebs, you can rule the land easily and efficiently. The Rauthus will pay all the costs of your war, so you're free to strenghten your economy or attack again. The extra GG's and protective archer will ensure a well-promoted, impregnable attack and defense.

The Holkan is interesting becuase it is resourceless and immune to first strikes. While it takes a while to get the techs to build it, once you do, archers' big bonus, their first strike, will be mitigated and the city rading that much easier. With the ball court and Expansive, your holdings will have plenty of room to grow so they can work more cottages, and increase your tech rate.

The Cataphrat is an absolute monster. It has the same attack as a cuirasseurs, which holds the same place that calvary used to hold. Early powerful calvary screams rush. The hippodrome helps with culture and happiness in your newly conquered cities, and Imp means more military instructors.

 

[jason77024]

I'm a bit stunned that no one's mentioned the Vulture. The vulture is an even stronger axeman, perfect for those early rushes. In fact, given that Gilgamesh has vultures for more powerful axe-rushes, protective archers to defend new territorial aquisicions, early and cheap courthouses to push down maintinence, and creative to shore up cultural defense, Gilga seems talior-made for rushing early, and then choosing your victory, whether peacefully or by conquest.

Nice recap - doesn't seem like there's a better synergy than Sumer's, certainly not for the early game.

The only thing I'd add here is that on top of all that, Vultures are eligible for the "upgraded axe handles" random event (an event that's pretty popular here!), and they benefit the most from it. Oh, and swordsmen can be skipped completely, meaning ironworking is merely a fill-in tech except for jungle starts.