[BtS MOD] Wolfshanze 1850-1920 Enhancement Mod v2.0

[Wolfshanze]

The Monitor and Virginia are already in the game (in effect)... they would be equivalent to the "Ironclad Gunboat" unit in the Wolfshanze Mod... there's nothing hugely special or dangerous about them over any other Ironclad ship... neither were seaworthy or overly powerful (as far as Ironclads go). The ocean-going Ironclads of the European navies were far more powerful then the Monitor and Virginia.

P.S.
The in-game unit/icon/model for the Ironclad Gunboat is a fairly close representation of the CSS Virginia anyways.

 

[Xenomorph]

The CSS Virginia pretty much is the default Ironclad in regular Civ4.

 

[Thinker19930602]

The Monitor and Virginia are already in the game (in effect)... they would be equivalent to the "Ironclad Gunboat" unit in the Wolfshanze Mod... there's nothing hugely special or dangerous about them over any other Ironclad ship... neither were seaworthy or overly powerful (as far as Ironclads go). The ocean-going Ironclads of the European navies were far more powerful then the Monitor and Virginia.

P.S.
The in-game unit/icon/model for the Ironclad Gunboat is a fairly close representation of the CSS Virginia anyways.

But aside from HMS Warrior, No European naval vessel of the time could compare to USS Monitor. An English newspaper even reported that aside from the aforementioned HMS Warrior, no European vessel could take on the American Iornclad. Remember, Iornclads got their start in the Civil War. You could at least pay some respect to the first and most famous iornclads.

 

[Wolfshanze]

But aside from HMS Warrior, No European naval vessel of the time could compare to USS Monitor. An English newspaper even reported that aside from the aforementioned HMS Warrior, no European vessel could take on the American Iornclad. Remember, Iornclads got their start in the Civil War. You could at least pay some respect to the first and most famous iornclads.

That was because the USS Monitor was one of the FIRST Ironclads, not because it was one of the best. At the time the comment was made, the "no European vessel" comment is in-reference to wooden ships, because European navies didn't really have Ironclads at the time of the Monitor besides the La Gloire and Warrior.

I also love the "aside from the HMS Warrior" comment... duh... the HMS Warrior was an ocean-going ironclad cruiser... and I'd bet the iron-plated ship-of-the-line La Gloire would at least fight the Monitor to a draw, if not defeat it... unless they left coastal waters, at which point the Monitor would sink in heavy seas (like it did historically).

Sorry... but there is absolutely nothing special about American Ironclads of the Civil War, other then the fact they were the first ironclads used in combat... in fact, most were quite inferior to European ironclads, simply because Americans (for the most part) concentrated and river gunboats that were unworthy for ocean-travel, while Europeans (when they got around to making ironclads) were producing ocean-going frigates and ships-of-the-line in ironclad plate.

The best thing the USS Monitor had going for it was its turret design... but even that was not enough to defeat a more traditional broadside-armed CSS Virginia.

In the matter of ironclad hierarchy, designs like the CSS Virginia and USS Monitor are definitely on the bottom-end of the Ironclad totem pole. Consider the USS Monitor and CSS Virginia as roughly equal designs (since they battled to a draw), then consider that the CSS Tennessee was a larger and better ironclad gunboat then the CSS Virginia... the CSS Tennessee was defeated by Northern Ironclad Steam Frigates in the Battle of Mobile Bay, since the very design of the gunboat was too small and too slow to keep-up with ocean going steam ironclads such as the Union eventually employed, and the Europeans mastered.

Sorry Thinker, but there's nothing very special about the USS Monitor or CSS Virginia design that makes them superior to other ironclads, especially ocean-going ones, of which both would be too slow to gain any advantage on (see the destruction of the CSS Tennessee as a reference). The comment you cling-to refers to the English reporter referring to wooden warships, which were indeed made obsolete by all Ironclads... the USS Monitor was an early Ironclad, and the first to engage in ironclad to ironclad combat... but it was neither the first ironclad built, nor even the best ironclad when it was launched (the HMS Warrior already existed and was vastly superior in every measure).

 

[Thinker19930602]

That was because the USS Monitor was one of the FIRST Ironclads, not because it was one of the best. At the time the comment was made, the "no European vessel" comment is in-reference to wooden ships, because European navies didn't really have Ironclads at the time of the Monitor besides the La Gloire and Warrior.

I also love the "aside from the HMS Warrior" comment... duh... the HMS Warrior was an ocean-going ironclad cruiser... and I'd bet the iron-plated ship-of-the-line La Gloire would at least fight the Monitor to a draw, if not defeat it... unless they left coastal waters, at which point the Monitor would sink in heavy seas (like it did historically).

Sorry... but there is absolutely nothing special about American Ironclads of the Civil War, other then the fact they were the first ironclads used in combat... in fact, most were quite inferior to European ironclads, simply because Americans (for the most part) concentrated and river gunboats that were unworthy for ocean-travel, while Europeans (when they got around to making ironclads) were producing ocean-going frigates and ships-of-the-line in ironclad plate.

The best thing the USS Monitor had going for it was its turret design... but even that was not enough to defeat a more traditional broadside-armed CSS Virginia.

In the matter of ironclad hierarchy, designs like the CSS Virginia and USS Monitor are definitely on the bottom-end of the Ironclad totem pole. Consider the USS Monitor and CSS Virginia as roughly equal designs (since they battled to a draw), then consider that the CSS Tennessee was a larger and better ironclad gunboat then the CSS Virginia... the CSS Tennessee was defeated by Northern Ironclad Steam Frigates in the Battle of Mobile Bay, since the very design of the gunboat was too small and too slow to keep-up with ocean going steam ironclads such as the Union eventually employed, and the Europeans mastered.

Sorry Thinker, but there's nothing very special about the USS Monitor or CSS Virginia design that makes them superior to other ironclads, especially ocean-going ones, of which both would be too slow to gain any advantage on (see the destruction of the CSS Tennessee as a reference). The comment you cling-to refers to the English reporter referring to wooden warships, which were indeed made obsolete by all Ironclads... the USS Monitor was an early Ironclad, and the first to engage in ironclad to ironclad combat... but it was neither the first ironclad built, nor even the best ironclad when it was launched (the HMS Warrior already existed and was vastly superior in every measure).

Ok, Ok, All I was asking was if they could be the early Iornclads, since you have more than one kind of iornclad unit. I'm sorry if i've been a bit redundant in my argument. Besides, Monitor survived because of it's design (it sat low in the water and had a single turret) as it's armor. It also had the bigger guns. You know, that might make an interesting unit, a coast-bound unit that does well in the coast and gets bonuses against transports and other Iornclads. It would be stuck in the coast (or could be transported to a foreign coast) and would act as a Coast Guard unit that would be for defense against anphibious landings, or an attacker against ships on the enemy's coast.

 

[Wolfshanze]

Ok, Ok, All I was asking was if they could be the early Iornclads, since you have more than one kind of iornclad unit. I'm sorry if i've been a bit redundant in my argument. Besides, Monitor survived because of it's design (it sat low in the water and had a single turret) as it's armor. It also had the bigger guns. You know, that might make an interesting unit, a coast-bound unit that does well in the coast and gets bonuses against transports and other Iornclads. It would be stuck in the coast (or could be transported to a foreign coast) and would act as a Coast Guard unit that would be for defense against anphibious landings, or an attacker against ships on the enemy's coast.

I think we've come full-circle, because you just described the "Ironclad Gunboat" that is already in the Wolfshanze Mod, as it's generally available before ocean going ironclads, stronger then any wooden sail ship, restricted to coastal waters, and very dangerous to transports.

I fail to see how the USS Monitor design would deserve a "bonus" against other ironclads, since it couldn't even defeat the conservative design of the CSS Virginia in a four-hour battle (bigger guns and lower silhouette and all, a draw is a draw, so I can't fathom getting a bonus against ironclads when the USS Monitor couldn't defeat another Ironclad in four hours!).

None-the-less the "Ironclad Gunboat" as I have it in the Wolfshanze Mod can be built before ocean going ironclads and is a fine coast guard unit against enemy amphibious landings. I see no need to make a special UU for America, because there's nothing really special about their ironclad designs... especially considering the Europeans eventually built far-superior ocean going ironclads in far greater numbers as the 1860s and 1870s moved on... in-fact, after the Civil War, the US Navy almost lost all funding, support and development for roughly 25 years and fell well behind the Europeans in Ironclad development until around 1890 when the US Navy finally got funding again... at which time the Ironclad Age had pretty much ended and the Pre-Dreadnought age had begun.

 

[phungus420]

One thing you could do that would be interesting is give the first Steam Tech descovering civ a free Ironclad, much like the early flyer.

Though, I'm not sure that would work, due to non costal capitals.... still an interesting idea.

 

[Wolfshanze]

One thing you could do that would be interesting is give the first Steam Tech descovering civ a free Ironclad, much like the early flyer.

Though, I'm not sure that would work, due to non coastal capitals.... still an interesting idea.

Interesting idea, but like you said, giving a free Ironclad would be a little different then a free Early Flyer... I'm not sure how that would work with land-locked capitals... might require playtesting... then there's the odd-ball chance that the player has no coastal cities (incredibly rare, but possible). Something like that should probably be tested-out.

By the way... do folks like the free Early Flyer I stuck in the mod? Just a little gift that I thought was interesting, as there's no other way to get one! (there's even different versions depending on which nation you are).

 

[Lean]

On the subject of a free Ironclad, it could be the Monitor. And yes, I happen to love the free early fighter. It gives me the edge against my lower tech foes.

 

[Wolfshanze]

On the subject of a free Ironclad, it could be the Monitor. And yes, I happen to love the free early fighter. It gives me the edge against my lower tech foes.

I'd have to test to see if that even works. I'm not sure folks would fully appreciate a free Ironclad in a land-locked capital with no water.

And yes, I happen to love the free early fighter. It gives me the edge against my lower tech foes.

Glad you like them... I loved slipping-in those early flyer models into the game.

 

[Xenomorph]

I just use the monitor model as a flavor unit for America's Ironclad gunboat.

 

[Wolfshanze]

I just use the monitor model as a flavor unit for America's Ironclad gunboat.

No offense, but I think the available USS Monitor is a terrible Civ4 model... also the default Ironclad Gunboat is an AMERICAN design (in fact both the north and the south used casemate ironclad designs like the default Civ4 Ironclad gunboat model).

 

[Lean]

No offense, but I think the available USS Monitor is a terrible Civ4 model... also the default Ironclad Gunboat is an AMERICAN design (in fact both the north and the south used casemate ironclad designs like the default Civ4 Ironclad gunboat model).

This is true. besides the Monitor, all other Union gunboats were the Civ 4 standard design. I also happen to dislike the Civ 4 Monitor model.

I'd have to test to see if that even works. I'm not sure folks would fully appreciate a free Ironclad in a land-locked capital with no water.

You do have a point. Actually, I didn't take that into consideration, seeing as I usually play on an Earth map, in which nearly all capitals(or just enemy capitals) boarder the water. I suppose time will tell(along with the members) whether or not the free ironclad will work. The member will have to take into consideration, and I'm sure most of them do, that a free ironclad will basicly give them controll over the sea. Even though an ironclad cannot enter the ocean, when it upgrades, it can. It would work even better if you shared a continent with an enemy. You'd be able to knock out his navy, and destroy his costal improvements. But, enough ranting from me.

 

[Thinker19930602]

Perhaps the free Iornclad would be available to only civs with a port, while landlocked civs would recieve a free upgrade to railroads for some (randomly-selected) roads.

 

[Wolfshanze]

Perhaps the free Ironclad would be available to only civs with a port, while landlocked civs would recieve a free upgrade to railroads for some (randomly-selected) roads.

Now you're talking massive under-the-hood changes to the game-code and SDK as opposed to a simple XML line tweak.

If you'd like to completely reprogram the game to make that happen, I'd be fine with that for discovering the steam engine, otherwise, I don't see that happening.

I still have to test what giving a free ironclad would do to a landlocked capital/civ, but if my suspicions are verified, this is probably an idea I'll just have to drop.

 

[blitzkrieg80]

here is a version of the WorldWarWolf scenario that can exist independently from the mini-mod, so you can include it in your standard mod-pack download. this 'scenario' version doesn't disable the settler and thus doesn't have NO CITY RAZING, which is just about the only reason I have it a mini-mod in the first place (wish there was a way around it). i'll try to make sure you have the latest copy whenever you make the next release.

thanks for such an awesome mod! I am quite happy with the vastness of possibility the mod has allowed to make this scenario rich and interesting... I am still quite happy with the idea of Byzantines as Venetian Republic (rather than Papal States) considering the true historical carryover from their heritage... of course the Byzantines are in vanilla BTS, but the fact that other civs like Poland and Vietnam make the map completely full of pontential civs who have histroical significance in 1784 is so cool. anyways, enough floating my boat... i just want to get ya the file for inclusion in the future, since previously the mini-mod wasn't compatible with unmodified Wolfshanze.


! Here is the WorldWarWolfshanze scenario DOWNLOAD to include in next release - Thanks!

 

[Xenomorph]

No offense, but I think the available USS Monitor is a terrible Civ4 model...

True that, I just have this habit of wanting to use every model available.
The US did make a lot of monitor-style ships, just not many during the war.

 

[Wolfshanze]

True that, I just have this habit of wanting to use every model available.
The US did make a lot of monitor-style ships, just not many during the war.

I don't have a problem using a Monitor-style model for the US, but for two reasons I don't...

#1) The model is awful IMHO...

#2) The default model is an American design already...

 

[Lean]

Could the free Ironclad perhaps just spawn on the coast nearest to the Civ that gets it?

 

[Wolfshanze]

Could the free Ironclad perhaps just spawn on the coast nearest to the Civ that gets it?

I haven't run any tests on a "free ironclad yet"... but from memory and past experience, I believe the free-unit spawns in the capital... regardless of the capitals' location.

Obviously if the capital is in an inland location with no access to water that's a problem.

I'm not sure of the under-the-hood mechanics of free units... anything beyond saying "give a free unit with this tech" (such as telling where the unit should go) would require some sort of re-wiring of how the game operates, which would be beyond the scope of what I would deem as worthwhile for such a small thing/perk.

Like I said, I'll do a test of this at some point, though I would expect it will probably be a failed test, but I will check it none-the-less when I get the time. Maybe the computer will know the difference between naval free units and non-naval and make a different placement of the free unit, though I doubt that's pre-written in the game-code.