Build the wall

Like, obviously, some barriers will be necessary - if only as a safety feature.

Why though? The German-Austrian border is dangerous as hell in many places, but we don't erect barriers there. No one goes there, who is not out for an alpine adventure, because there are plenty easier ways to cross.

The wall as a safety feature boils down to a circular argument: We need more wall because of the wall. If this was solely about protecting migrants, the better solution would be to tear down the wall instead of filling the gaps.
 
this (ie republicans) is ridiculous.

so.

reps want the wall thing done.

so biden does the wall thing. (here in this thread there's notes on what's happening here in reality, but let's ignore that for now.)

are reps happy that biden pushed republican policy?

no. they use it as an opportunity to throw mud.

this is not good practice for what should be a functioning democracy.

obstruction and consolidation of power is more important than policy. the call to build the wall is less important than something else. i wonder what that is.

imo this thing just symptomizes that the wall and the phrase used as the title of this thread is really just shadow policy. it's not about the wall. it's what the wall signifies. restricting power from other groups.

if not, why the hell are pundits celebrating not that the wall is being built, but that their opponent looks weak?

introducing this very thread, bernie titles it a trump monicker and goes "lol biden admitted tribalism".

like, so biden is the tribalist now for (debateably) doing a republican policy? wat?
 
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Srsly tho, is this thread actually for anything, or is it just thumbing your nose?

Is conservative ideology actually for anything for that matter or is it all just spite?
apparently, they don't care for the wall.

it's shadow policy. it's spite. it's rhetorics and power consolidation, all the way down.
 
Why though? The German-Austrian border is dangerous as hell in many places, but we don't erect barriers there. No one goes there, who is not out for an alpine adventure, because there are plenty easier ways to cross.

The wall as a safety feature boils down to a circular argument: We need more wall because of the wall. If this was solely about protecting migrants, the better solution would be to tear down the wall instead of filling the gaps.

Or at the very least let people cross at the safe places so they don't need to go through the desert or w.e
 
Biden built the wall and got Mexico to pay for it.
 
If they want to stop illegal immigration border wall won't do squat.

Punish the employers who employ illegals. Can't get a job illegally would choke off the pull effect of the USA.
this seems like a legit starting point for policy discussion

what are the enforcement costs on this? it's one thing to punish employers who hire/employ illegal immigrants, but short of straight up auditing them for that, how do you find out when it's happening? and how do you prove the employer did it knowingly w/o the cost getting out of hand?

it might nevertheless be the best way, but these things are necessarily going to be done off the record. i guess you could add report requirements that would amount to forcing employers between fraudulent reports or exposing that they're doing it, and drive up the cost. maybe that could be high enough to make hiring undocumented workers less attractive?
 
what are the enforcement costs on this? it's one thing to punish employers who hire/employ illegal immigrants, but short of straight up auditing them for that, how do you find out when it's happening? and how do you prove the employer did it knowingly w/o the cost getting out of hand?

A national ID, which you also oppose
 
If they want to stop illegal immigration border wall won't do squat.

Punish the employers who employ illegals. Can't get a job illegally would choke off the pull effect of the USA.

That would probably decimate a sizable part of the american farming industry
 
this seems like a legit starting point for policy discussion

what are the enforcement costs on this? it's one thing to punish employers who hire/employ illegal immigrants, but short of straight up auditing them for that, how do you find out when it's happening? and how do you prove the employer did it knowingly w/o the cost getting out of hand?

it might nevertheless be the best way, but these things are necessarily going to be done off the record. i guess you could add report requirements that would amount to forcing employers between fraudulent reports or exposing that they're doing it, and drive up the cost. maybe that could be high enough to make hiring undocumented workers less attractive?

Well we seem to cope here. You need proof of residency/valid work visa, an IRD number etc.

Won't completely eliminate everything but if employers are looking at jail time, huge fines or business seizure....
 
Don't you guys have the equivalent of a Social Insurance Number, the number that the employers puts on their payroll so that your taxes and benefits are deducted? You shouldn't need a 'National ID'? It should just be that you're only allowed to hire people without deducting taxes ('under the table') in limited circumstances.

It's all so weird, because it's not people working under the table that's the problem. Unless they get welfare benefits despite that, I guess, but even the math there isn't very hard.
 
The whole framing of border security to combat human trafficking, like so much other US policy discourse around Latin American issues, is completely ass-backwards. The human trafficking (in the sense of 'voluntary' people-smuggling, not, like, kidnapping or duping people for de facto slavery) is caused by the militarized/sealed border, period. Just let people cross (both ways) and they won't need coyotes.

The modern "sealed" border is a relatively new thing, which most people don't realize. The border was porous for seasonal migrants for most of its history (including the period when it was moved some thousand miles westward by a criminal war of aggression). It was only in the 20th century that Americans became worried about racial eugenics and decided the border needed to be "secure."

Which is what has not only caused the demand for people-smuggling, but also led to many, many more one-way crossings than previously. It became too risky to cross over and over again; much easier to cross once and then try to make your way in the land of opportunity.

A border security regime focused on actually keeping people safe, rather than keeping racial contagion out of the land of the free and home of the whites, would look very different from what we have now.
"Is it a misfortune that the wonderful California was wrested from the lazy Mexicans, who did not know what to do with it?....All impotent nations must, in the final analysis, be grateful to those who, obeying historical necessities, attach them to a great empire, thus allowing them participation in a historical development which would otherwise be unknown to them. It is self-evident that such a result could not be obtained without crushing some sweet little flowers. Without violence, nothing can be accomplished in history..."

"...we have been spectators of the conquest of Mexico and have rejoiced in it. It is progress that a country which, up till now, was concerned exclusively with itself, torn asunder by eternal civil wars and alien to any form of development..should have been propelled, through violence, to historical development. It is in the interest of it's own development that it shall, in the future, be placed under the tutelage of the United States. It is in the interest of the whole of America that the United States, thanks to the conquest of California, should achieve mastery over the Pacific Ocean".


honestly Lex, historical context is a thing, but I'm not cool with your dialectic.
If they want to stop illegal immigration border wall won't do squat.

Punish the employers who employ illegals. Can't get a job illegally would choke off the pull effect of the USA.
IIRC that was supposed to happen in 1986.
this (ie republicans) is ridiculous.

so.

reps want the wall thing done.

so biden does the wall thing. (here in this thread there's notes on what's happening here in reality, but let's ignore that for now.)

are reps happy that biden pushed republican policy?

no. they use it as an opportunity to throw mud.

this is not good practice for what should be a functioning democracy.

obstruction and consolidation of power is more important than policy. the call to build the wall is less important than something else. i wonder what that is.

imo this thing just symptomizes that the wall and the phrase used as the title of this thread is really just shadow policy. it's not about the wall. it's what the wall signifies. restricting power from other groups.

if not, why the hell are pundits celebrating not that the wall is being built, but that their opponent looks weak?

introducing this very thread, bernie titles it a trump monicker and goes "lol biden admitted tribalism".

like, so biden is the tribalist now for (debateably) doing a republican policy? wat?
no, @Senethro made the "tribal" comment and if biden is a tribalist, it is because he is trying to marginalize 50% of the population.
apparently, they don't care for the wall.

it's shadow policy. it's spite. it's rhetorics and power consolidation, all the way down.
Qanon worthy conspiracy theory
A national ID, which you also oppose
ACLU seems to oppose this
 
Well we seem to cope here. You need proof of residency/valid work visa, an IRD number etc.

Won't completely eliminate everything but if employers are looking at jail time, huge fines or business seizure....
people routinely commit crimes that have larger supposed stakes than that, and are easier crimes to detect.

It's all so weird, because it's not people working under the table that's the problem.
isn't it? do we have good data on how illegal immigrants are employed, to the degree that we can trust it? i was under the impression that businesses, politicians etc say one thing but mostly look the other way in practice and are motivated to behave as such.

and if you do start enforcing it, there's going to be a reality of a ton of people who can't find employment and won't be living on the taxpayer dime. any such policy would probably want a way to filter productive people into citizenship, both as a matter of practicality limiting sheer volume of unrest and from an ethics/optics perspective.

for those overstaying visa or w/e they can be booted back to country of origin. the real problem is when there isn't a clear country of origin any longer.
 
It's not impossible to hire illegals here BUT

1. You have to give employees a work contract. A recent case the employee was fined $15000 for not doing it. Wages paid via the bank can prove employment without a contract.

2. IRD number. This is used for tax.

3. You have to prove residency status/citizenship for a hob.

4. Most things are electronic. 90% of payments now are electronic.

5. ID required if requested. Needs to be one of 3 photo IDs. Drivers license, passport, or 18+ card.

So there's multiple steps an employer has to ignore to hire illegals. Virtually impossible to claim ignorance.

Cash only businesses are also a red flag to the tax department. Even food trucks these day have mobile EFTPOS.
 
if you're a big employer that has otherwise above board operations, then sure

Ignorance of employment law isn't a valid legal defense. Most recent case was employee worked for two weeks, got told to bugger off after arguing about hours worked and breaks.

Employer didn't give him a contract but bank transfers were proof of wages paid.

Fine was $15000.
 
Ignorance of employment law isn't a valid legal defense.
i would imagine that a decent percentage of people who choose to break the law do not do so with the understanding that they will provide a valid legal defense in court later

since illegal immigrants also (by definition) are breaking the law, there is unusual selective pressure for both sides to cooperate in this instance, in addition to incentive for others who might enforce it to look away or at least not look too carefully. i don't know what scale that works out to in practice
 
i would imagine that a decent percentage of people who choose to break the law do not do so with the understanding that they will provide a valid legal defense in court later

since illegal immigrants also (by definition) are breaking the law, there is unusual selective pressure for both sides to cooperate in this instance, in addition to incentive for others who might enforce it to look away or at least not look too carefully. i don't know what scale that works out to in practice

It's very easy to detect if someone is investigating. Taxes here are essentially automatic.

Still happens though as the authorities don't look very hard an employee essentially has to complain.
 
I have a dear friend who came to NM from Mexico and worked illegally for 15 years. She had a SS number (not hers or fake) and paid taxes and had a 401K account. She worked in legit businesses as a manager. I helped her get her citizenship and move her Illegal accounts to legal ones under her new SS number. Her four siblings also came up from Chihuahua and may or may not be legal now. Small businesses (less than 100 employees have lots of illegals working for them and if you want to clamp down, you will have to squeeze them hard to comply with hiring standards that require tight document checking.
 
isn't it?

Depends what you are referring to when you talk about the problem. People working under the table generate a great deal of commodified productivity, and obviously they are not paying taxes. However, the main problem is that the people who benefit from all of that commodified productivity are also not paying sufficient taxes on it. That tax discrepancy would certainly be helped a little bit by taxing the person working under the table, but the underlying problem is still much more massive.

Like I said though, if they are also claiming benefits without paying the tax, then it's a little bit of a problem. Not so much because they are essential to the funding of the benefits program, but more because of the unfairness to the people who are being taxed to pay for it out of regressive payroll taxes
 
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