Builder Victory Condition

[Deon]

But that is the point. No great empire ever won a cultural victory IRL.

Hehe, no great empire ever won ANY of other victories as well .

To me, cultural screems: Huge bounty and lots of slaves ahead. Please invade.

Why not, still it's the victory. You must be missing a point of what a victory in Civ4 is. Victory here = achieved goal of some kind. The only ultimate victory is Conquest, any other can be argued as well. I.e. in religious victory other countries still can think that you do it wrong and beat you. A split of roman church is a living example. So it's O.K.

 

[dyx]

The chinese absorbed both the mongols and the manchus, the latter even more so. You can easily call that a cultural victory.
With the chinese, there hasn't even been nationalism like in the west, but rather culturalism. The imperial Chinese depicted China as being the world, with just barbarians around.
Until the westerners arrived. The self-strenghtening movement and the Boxer rebellion were some of the first cases of chinese nationalism, and that was just like 150 years ago, little more than 100 in the case of the Boxer Rebellion. I think China is quite a good example for cultural victory. You get conquered and the conquerors take your culture. The Qing were even one of the greatest dynasties, despite not being of Han origin.
Of course in the end they lost, but there are other reasons for that.

 

[Deon]

So chinese were actual borgs? 8\

 

[DeeEmm]

The chinese absorbed both the mongols and the manchus, the latter even more so. You can easily call that a cultural victory.
With the chinese, there hasn't even been nationalism like in the west, but rather culturalism. The imperial Chinese depicted China as being the world, with just barbarians around.
Until the westerners arrived. The self-strenghtening movement and the Boxer rebellion were some of the first cases of chinese nationalism, and that was just like 150 years ago, little more than 100 in the case of the Boxer Rebellion. I think China is quite a good example for cultural victory. You get conquered and the conquerors take your culture. The Qing were even one of the greatest dynasties, despite not being of Han origin.
Of course in the end they lost, but there are other reasons for that.

Except not. Chinese people have had a national identity from the Han period. Around 200 BC.

And nationalism upraising - what about when they overthrew the Ming?

As for Borgs, I think the Romans were more Borg-y.

 

[Ahwaric]

But that is the point. No great empire ever won a cultural victory IRL.

As above posters pointed, chinese sort of did. And I think it applies to romans even more.
I include greek achievements into it, as romans absorbed and transfered it to the rest of Europe.

First, what alphabet does this forum use? Where does the word forum comes from? Also, cyrilic alphabet is based on greek, commonly used in the eastern empire (=Byzantium). Stadiums, law system etc all come from Rome.
The barbarians that invaded Rome got absorbed too. And they were a lot like romans even before the invasions. Goths changed a lot living for centuries on the roman limes.
Franks? They did not even keep their language. All europe (and its former colonies) are a sign of roman victory, including countries that were never part of the empire.

But back to original topic, I think that proposed victory is too simmilar to cultural victory. Except it is next to impossible.
Commerce victory would be great on the other hand. A way for Khazad and Hippus that is not conquest. A great one for Lanun, too.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Well we already have 4 builder victories:
Religius, Cultural, Altar and TOM.

This is oposed to only 2 militairy ones:
Conquest, Domination

 

[WarKirby]

Well we already have 4 builder victories:
Religius, Cultural, Altar and TOM.

This is oposed to only 2 militairy ones:
Conquest, Domination

No, Religious and ToM are most definitely military ones. There's no way to get the requisite mana for all the towers without a healthy dose of conquest and vassalization. And Religious victory generally requires wiping out nations who don't share your views on the gocds.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

There's no way to get the requisite mana for all the towers without a healthy dose of conquest and vassalization.

Metamagic 3, Trade, there are 2 for you.

And Religious victory generally requires wiping out nations who don't share your views on the gocds.

Not usualy. The AI in FF will adopt any religion that falls in its lap so all you have to do is make a spreading rush.

 

[Valkrionn]

They don't necessarily need military force, but it helps.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

Well going by that logic you could say that cultural need militairy force becouse it is easier to win without competition.
And it is simple to build the altar when you have all the time in the world as the rest of it has been reduced to single 1 pop cities per race.

But that kind of makes the same pointles.

 

[dyx]

Except not. Chinese people have had a national identity from the Han period. Around 200 BC.

And nationalism upraising - what about when they overthrew the Ming?

I mean nationalism. Like you had in Europe with all the feuding states. In China, there was just China and that's it. All-under-heaven, like they call it.
Even the Ming treasure fleet was not about getting tribute from subordinate states, because for them all those people in Asia and Africa were technically part of the Chinese world.

And overthrowing the Ming. Do you mean the Yuan or some other? Because the Ming were Han and got conquered by the Manchus, leading to the Qing dynasty... one of the greatest actually.
The end of a dynasty usually saw a period of weakening before. Corruption, laziness and all those things. Then some extended draughts, other natural desasters - the Huanghe (and/or Changjiang, not sure) changing it's course, earthquakes, and the like, were seen as evidence that the emperor lost the mandate from heaven.

 

[deadliver]

But that is the point. No great empire ever won a cultural victory IRL.

China was constantly atacked by Mongols and other barbarians. Rome vas destroyed by barbarians. The Binsantines were destroyed by barbarians.

To me, cultural screems: Huge bounty and lots of slaves ahead. Please invade.

Flavourwise Cultural should be renamed, something that leaves no doubt the civ is equal to Patria. Being the next benchmark in history. The "win" movie should be about a new society standing on the shoulders of (enter your civ name here). That would be a truly Dark Fantasy ending.

 

[Hawkwood]

I mean nationalism. Like you had in Europe with all the feuding states.

Could you clarify what you are talking about? At first I was going to correct you because medieval Europe (which I assumed you were talking about) didn't have nationalism, but then I realised that you don't actually mention which point in time you're talking about.

 

[armyofwhispers]

Flavourwise Cultural should be renamed, something that leaves no doubt the civ is equal to Patria. Being the next benchmark in history. The "win" movie should be about a new society standing on the shoulders of (enter your civ name here). That would be a truly Dark Fantasy ending.

Actually I'd say that domination would be more appropriate for a 'New Patria' victory condition.

Perhaps a joining of the two? A victory condition with both size and cultural superiority?

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Yeah, a New Patria definately sounds like Domination to me. After all, Patria united all humans under one central government, sometimes peacefully and sometimes by force. (Granted, some peoples like the ancient Lanun were really only nominal vassals of the emperor.)

 

[lordrune]

But that is the point. No great empire ever won a cultural victory IRL.

China was constantly atacked by Mongols and other barbarians. Rome vas destroyed by barbarians. The Binsantines were destroyed by barbarians.

To me, cultural screems: Huge bounty and lots of slaves ahead. Please invade.

And? No civilisation lasts forever. Empires built by conquest also have a tendency to crumble (see Mongols).

Cultural is a perfectly good builder victory as it stands, introducing an 'economic victory' or something similar would probably be somewhat redundant. Not that I want to knock a genuine suggestion though, if anybody thinks of a distinct new builder victory that isn't merely the same as another one under another name, they're welcome to put it forward

 

[Valkrionn]

Actually, empires conquered purely through conquest (Alexander's, the Mongols) tend to collapse faster than those that spread their culture... Rome is a good example. Although, had Alexander survived, his would have gone that route as well.

 

[Randomness]

Wasn't that the purpose of the thread?...