Bulgarian mod

[svetg]

It's belived that the Bulgarians were the first who brought the stirrups to Europe(стремен&#1072.

...and they borrowed this from Mongol Keshiks. I think this is true for the proto-bulgarian Asparuh's army. Later, the horsemen were more like heavy cavalry. Look here

...част от прабългарската конница е била изцяло тежко въоръжена и е представлявала основно ударно ядро, чиято цел е била мощен фронтален или флангов удар срещу добре въоръжена пехота или конница в открито сражение...

Also some other weapons might be used by the horsemen, such as swords.

...this makes them heavy cavalry, armed not only with bows, but with swords, shields, spears and maces....

 

[svetg]

I don't have civ4 and i have never played it

I think this forum is like 80-90% playing CivIV and 10-20% history. There are some interesting historical forums you can read: Allempires, Balkanium, Boina slava

 

[fing0lfin]

...and they borrowed this from Mongol Keshiks. I think this is true for the proto-bulgarian Asparuh's army. Later, the horsemen were more like heavy cavalry. Look here





...this makes them heavy cavalry, armed not only with bows, but with swords, shields, spears and maces....

I think that when the Bulgarians came to Europe there were no mongol keshiks. And i don't say it's Bulgarian invention. It was brouoght to europe by
the Bulgarians.

...част от прабългарската конница е била изцяло тежко въоръжена и е представлявала основно ударно ядро, чиято цел е била мощен фронтален или флангов удар срещу добре въоръжена пехота или конница в открито сражение...

Абсолютно съглаесн съм. Пример за това е битката при Ахелой 917.

 

[fing0lfin]

I think this forum is like 80-90% playing CivIV and 10-20% history. There are some interesting historical forums you can read: Allempires, Balkanium, Boina slava

I actually play civII(scenarios only)
By the way thank you for the links. I know boina slava and i write from time to time there I will gladly check the other two links

 

[BG_Zero]

O.K., ...historical information, you said .

One question with enhanced difficulty:
"What is the single most unique and famous Bulgarian military unit for the history of Bulgaria (1300+ years ) and what special abilities makes it sо unique among the other similar warriors?

tic-tac-tic-tac... "Ами сега?".....

How about the "bagains",there are the bulgarian ulternative to the western knighs.Or the bulgarian infantry from the Balcan's wars and WWW1.They were very powerfull Or aur artilery,bulgarian comanders had invented the "Ognen vall"artilery tactic,there are indeed very powerfull units in aur 1300 years of history,and its hard to choose only one of them.So why there shud be only one unique bulgarian unit?

 

[fing0lfin]

I agree about the Bulgarian infantry from the end of 19 and the begingi of the 20 century. I though of it, too. But i think that it should be something which include bigger time period.
The "ognen val" i think was not invented by our comanders. I think it was first used in the Russo-Japanese war, but i am not sure. I think that artilery is not suitable for Bulgarian UU. Yes it was good, but nothing unique...

 

[BG_Zero]

I agree about the Bulgarian infantry from the end of 19 and the begingi of the 20 century. I though of it, too. But i think that it should be something which include bigger time period.
The "ognen val" i think was not invented by our comanders. I think it was first used in the Russo-Japanese war, but i am not sure. I think that artilery is not suitable for Bulgarian UU. Yes it was good, but nothing unique...

"Ogneniq val" is developed by our military experts and field comanders.I dont know if the russians have invented the tactic but im shure that our comanders had reinvented it for the use in the bulgarian army.And by the way im prety sure that under our use the strategy was most succesful. It is a tactic where the artilery barage is fired close (about 100 meters) from the advancing infantry,destroing the enemy fortifications and military personel, then the infantry kills the remaining enemies and thats how the "val" efect is achieved.I know this becouse my grand grand father served in the artilery when the Odrin stronghold was taken and there this tactic came to use.PS:Bye the way since we are the only one ho still discus this stuf why not rite it cyric?An how about the "bagain" unit?The Japanece-Russian war was moustly fot in sea so we are not talking about the same tactic(i think).

 

[svetg]

So why there shud be only one unique bulgarian unit?

In my first mod I included three UU, but Lankou did not want to put the mod in Superciv. I liked Superciv and wanted Bulgaria included there, so I sacrificed the other UUs

 

[fing0lfin]

"Ogneniq val" is developed by our military experts and field comanders.I dont know if the russians have invented the tactic but im shure that our comanders had reinvented it for the use in the bulgarian army.And by the way im prety sure that under our use the strategy was most succesful. It is a tactic where the artilery barage is fired close (about 100 meters) from the advancing infantry,destroing the enemy fortifications and military personel, then the infantry kills the remaining enemies and thats how the "val" efect is achieved.I know this becouse my grand grand father served in the artilery when the Odrin stronghold was taken and there this tactic came to use.PS:Bye the way since we are the only one ho still discus this stuf why not rite it cyric?An how about the "bagain" unit?The Japanece-Russian war was moustly fot in sea so we are not talking about the same tactic(i think).

Напълно съм съгласен ,че Българската артилерия използва огнения вал през балканската война, и по точно- превземането на Одрин. Дълго време аз също смятах че огнения вал е за пръв път използван тук, но в една форумна дискусия, един от участниците успя да ме убеди че за първи път подобна тактика е използвана в сухопътната фаза на Руско-Японската война. Това разбира се не трябва да омаловажава изобретателността на нашите полеви командири, защото силно се съмнявам, че на тях им е било известно използването на тази тактика през Руско-Японската война.

 

[BG_Zero]

Напълно съм съгласен ,че Българската артилерия използва огнения вал през балканската война, и по точно- превземането на Одрин. Дълго време аз също смятах че огнения вал е за пръв път използван тук, но в една форумна дискусия, един от участниците успя да ме убеди че за първи път подобна тактика е използвана в сухопътната фаза на Руско-Японската война. Това разбира се не трябва да омаловажава изобретателността на нашите полеви командири, защото силно се съмнявам, че на тях им е било известно използването на тази тактика през Руско-Японската война.

Saglasen sam s teb.Qvno tacticata e vavedena i v dvete armii.Prosto tova e stanalo savsem samostoqtelno i nqma vrazka megdu ruskata upotreba na tacticata i upotrebata i v Balkanskite voini ot nahorsehockye komandiri.
SAJALQVAM CE NE IZPOLZVAM KIRILICHA NO KIRILIZATORA MI ZDADE BAGAJA.

 

[hr_oskar]

I just want to comment how sad and tiring I find it to see how every discussion on anything Balkan boils down to petty rivalries, uncompromising arguments and a general lack of mutual respect. Not just this thread and not just this forum, it happens all over the internet.

I find it sad because I have a genuine respect for Balkan people and I've known a lot of great people from there in my life. I also find the region very interesting for its history and culture, not just one country but all of it.

I wish some of you nationalistic posters here could respect the right of outsiders to stay neutral and not bash them into taking a stand in favor of your own nation. All it really achieves is making your own country look bad and leaving people all around the world with a bad taste in their mouth and probably deciding not to visit the Balkans ever if they can avoid it.

For my part I know I want to travel to the Balkans at some point because I believe there's a lot more to it than petty nationalism but I also understand those who're entirely put off by all the flame wars and decide never to visit any Balkan country.

 

[pataroka]

Well, hi everyone. I was surprised to find out there's a Bulgarian civ Mod and after reding all 4 pages of this thread carefully, here are my comments that I hope will be usefull to making the mod better. I'd like to point out also that I'm a big fan of the Civ series, and have played it since the first Civ released ever. So I think that my proposals can be regarded not only as historically correct, but as such that try to keep the balance in the game as well.

Khan Asparuh, Tzar Simeon, Stefan Stambolov - these three should be fine as leaders though I think there could be some editing in their specs and favoured civics. I make my proposals in consideration with new abilities in the Warlords xpPack, and of course on important historical facts, and therefore will appreciate if svetg would like to make the mode for the expansion as well.

Khan Asparuh (Aggressive, Spiritual) favors Vassalage
I'd like Expansive replaced by Spiritual since the so called proto-bulgars were very religious people. The cult to their ultimate god Tangra played a very important role in their life especially when in wartime. I don't think expansive suits well early Bulgaria's not exactly settled way of life. So having a +3 health per city will not be historically correct.
Vassalage is fine as a favoured civic.

Tzar Simeon I (Charismatic, Creative) favors Theocracy
I thought if this combination will be a bit imbalanced, and that's why there is no leader with this abilities in the game, but after giving it a while of thought, I guess it's fine. And it suits Simeon I Veliki's golden age of Bulgarian rule perfectly.
Creative - since this was the time that Bulgaria had the most influence not only on the Balkans but in Europe as well, and to reflect the development of literature in the Empire, which at that times was spread through the hole peninsula plus the Carpati mountins, and had a reach to three seas.
Charismatic - to reflect the development of both army and society.
Favoured civic should be Teocracy, since that was the time when Christianity was finally settled in Bulgaria as a state religion and the pagan cults were almost driven out, the +xp to units bonus also reflects the war policy of Simeon.

Stefan Stambolov (Financial, Industrious) favors Mercantilism
Just one little correction here - favoured civic should be mercantilism, since it perfectly reflects Stambolov's protectionist economic policy, favouring Bulgarian goods in front of foreign.

UU - Bagatur is fine, to replace Horse archer, though it should have bonus against melee units 50% for example, and strength should be lowered in this case to 5 probably to keep balance. It can also have Sentry as a free promotion for history's sake.

Unique building - Now I've thought about this a lot and come with the idea that Bulgaria's unique building would be "Chitalishte" - which combined school, library and theatre into one and is the essence of Bulgarian Rennaisance just before overthrowing the Ottoman rule. It should replace Theatre and should give a free priest.

Well that's it for now I hope I've been helpfull.

п.п @svetg - братле, ако имаш нужда от няква помощ по правенето на тия работи пиши един пърсъснъл месидж и ще ти дам кю или мейл да се разберем - ще се радвам да помогна, но ще трябва да ме въведеш преди това в модмейкинга

 

[Duncan_Idaho]

Woah, nice to see a BG mod I've been thinking about seeing BG in CIV IV for a lot of time.

First off, really, the Turko-Mongol origin of the Bulgarians was just communist propaganda.
In the 19th century the most popular theory was that the Bulgarians were Huns (this theory still has some supporters but it contradicts a lot of evidence that the Huns and the Bulgarians were different peoples).

During WW II (and a little before that) Bulgaria was allied with Germany. The propaganda was that the Bulgarians were "Arias". This theory was just propaganda since the "Arias" were just a tribe, which invaded India, established a dynasty there and dissolved. They could've been everything.
But the Bulgarians came from the east, the "Arias" came from the east, so the BG government (lead by Bogdan Filov, a historian) imposed this theory with respect to the alliance with Germany but most of all because Bogdan Filov was a devoted nationalist.

When the communist regime took over in Bulgaria they needed a new theory and they needed it now. So they adopted the theory of some "friendly" Russian historian (without any proof) that the Bulgarians were of Mongolian descent, based on the concept that all horse tribes were Mongolian.
But in the spirit of the alliance with the USSR, the numbers of the ancient Bulgars miraculously dropped to "almost insignificant" or something, so that the Bulgarians could be presented more akin to the Russians.

This theory was taught in the schools in Bulgaria for over half a century. When you repeat a lie a 100 times, nobody doubts it.

In the last ....hmm, 10-15? years, a Bulgarian historian, Peter Dobrev has been trying to find out the truth about the origin of the ancient Bulgars. The guy has done some serious research, proving that the ancient Bulgars were a celtic horse tribe, caucasean, akin to the ancient Persians. Read some of his books or articles, this is not the place to paste hundreds of pages of theory Also, to quote Procopius Caesar (if that's the correct name) "Those people, on this side of the Sea called themselves Cimmerians and later changed their name to Bulgarians."

But Todor Zhivkov???? Well Mao Ze Dong was a surprise too

I would suggest: Asparuh (Expansive, Aggressive)
Krum (Aggressive, Imperialistic)
Omurtag (Organized, Industrious)
Boris (Spiritual, Protective)
Simeon (Philosophical, Aggressive)
Kaloyan (Aggressive, Protective)
Stephan Stambolov (Industrious, Organized)


UU - Konnik, the problem is that the Mongolian Keshiks are very close to what it should be so...hmmm, perhaps just a Horse archer with two first strikes (The Bulgarian army had no match), Flanking I (The BG horse archers were known for their lightning speed) and Blitz (The Ancient Bulgarians always fought to their last breath - see Roman and Byzantine historians). If that's too imbalanced, one first strike.

UB - Now this is a tricky one. As far as I get it, each Civ should get a different Building to replace. So, only stuff like hospitals and bunkers are left for the new CIVs.
Bulgaria is not known for it's good health institutes, so I would suggest our UB to be a Bunker, which produces two happy faces (or one if two is imbalanced).

Now I hope this mod runs on warlords
Good job, thanx for creating it. Nice to know that Bulgarians play the game

 

[pataroka]

In the last ....hmm, 10-15? years, a Bulgarian historian, Peter Dobrev has been trying to find out the truth about the origin of the ancient Bulgars.

Petar Dobrev is not a historian, he is a linguist, and all his evidence is based on linguistic similarities, which is pathetic. Currently, some new evidence has been discovered by real historians, as a team of Ukrainian and Bulgarian archeologists are investigating the remains of the ancient capital Fanagoria.

Now I hope this mod runs on warlords
Good job, thanx for creating it. Nice to know that Bulgarians play the game

This mod doesn't work for Warlords, and as far as I know svetg has retired from modding, so he won't be doing any updates.

Currently I am working on a Bulgarian Civ mod for Warlords, but I wouldn't go and set a deadline for it since there's a lot of other stuff I'm working on besides this project.
Amra will be releasing his modpack soon, so you'll be able to play bulgarian civ there.
Wyz_sub10 will also be including Bularian civ in his CivGold pack.
Their releases will be ready much sooner than mine, so look for updates coming.

 

[Duncan_Idaho]

Nice to hear about that)
What UU and UB are you planning? I'm curious, especially about the UB. Imo, there's nothing wrong with two UBs replacing the same non unique building. I think that having so many different buildings makes most of the UBs total waste.
Label me lame but I can't see anything useful about the Mausoleum or any synergy between it and Gandhi or Asoka (And I love playing India). Let alone the Dun and the new Gallic Warriors. I love playing the Celts but I certainly don't do it because of their ultra cool UU or UB. Share your thoughts?

What leaders do you plan to implement? (You _MUST_ have Kaloyan

Petar Dobrev is not a historian, he is a linguist, and all his evidence is based on linguistic similarities, which is pathetic. Currently, some new evidence has been discovered by real historians, as a team of Ukrainian and Bulgarian archeologists are investigating the remains of the ancient capital Fanagoria.

That's not exactly true, the guy is a professor in economic history in the Bulgarian Academy of Science (Not that titles matter anyway, it's the person that matters). Btw, you caught me off guard, but isn't Peter Dobrev involved in those excavations in Fanagoria?
Really, man, the Turko-Altaian theory is just propaganda, I've read A LOT about ancient history, particularly about Bulgaria. See it for yourself - just try to find an ancient author who described the Bulgars as a Mongol-type tribe. I couldn't. They describe them as a horse tribe. Their clothes and customs looked strange but their complexion wasn't any different than the caucasian type.
Relying on logic without proof is wrong but at the time the Bulgars moved to today's Bulgaria, all the horse tribes coming from the east were Caucasians -huns etc. The mongol and turk tribes came about 6 centuries later.

Sorry for the spam I know what it takes to create something, way to go with your project!
I wish I could help you. I have no idea how to use Python though

 

[pataroka]

No point in wasteful arguing. I'll be releasing a beta version of my civ mod soon. Stay tuned

 

[BG_Zero]

Nice to hear about that)
What UU and UB are you planning? I'm curious, especially about the UB. Imo, there's nothing wrong with two UBs replacing the same non unique building. I think that having so many different buildings makes most of the UBs total waste.
Label me lame but I can't see anything useful about the Mausoleum or any synergy between it and Gandhi or Asoka (And I love playing India). Let alone the Dun and the new Gallic Warriors. I love playing the Celts but I certainly don't do it because of their ultra cool UU or UB. Share your thoughts?

What leaders do you plan to implement? (You _MUST_ have Kaloyan




That's not exactly true, the guy is a professor in economic history in the Bulgarian Academy of Science (Not that titles matter anyway, it's the person that matters). Btw, you caught me off guard, but isn't Peter Dobrev involved in those excavations in Fanagoria?
Really, man, the Turko-Altaian theory is just propaganda, I've read A LOT about ancient history, particularly about Bulgaria. See it for yourself - just try to find an ancient author who described the Bulgars as a Mongol-type tribe. I couldn't. They describe them as a horse tribe. Their clothes and customs looked strange but their complexion wasn't any different than the caucasian type.
Relying on logic without proof is wrong but at the time the Bulgars moved to today's Bulgaria, all the horse tribes coming from the east were Caucasians -huns etc. The mongol and turk tribes came about 6 centuries later.

Sorry for the spam I know what it takes to create something, way to go with your project!
I wish I could help you. I have no idea how to use Python though

Who cares where the protobulgarians came from the important thing is that we have adopted the slavian culture micxed whit a lot of slav.And today we are considering aur self a part of the sout slav group along whit the serb.This man you are refuring to is not a historian at all so his studies abut anciant bulgarians shudnt be taken very seriosly.Have you ever thout that taday there is all so propaganda theaching bulgarians that they infact are nothing near slav that they shoud use latin alphabet and so on....and the teory that Pliska was infact a city that had 200 000 protobulgarians.This all noncense the important thing is that today we have very litle in comon whit the old bulgars just take a look at the people of Bulgaristan that suposed to be closer to the proto bulgars nothing in comon whit us wen you compare their aperance or their language.But you are free to form your own opinion.I fell my self a lot more like a ortodox slav than a scandinavian,mongol,persian or wat ever.

 

[IMPERIVM BG]

Яко, ама има ли ниакой сценарий с България?

 

[DaemonBG]

Just one question, which I guess is rather pointless considering a post earlier on this thread with a question for Warlords, but still ... Does this Bulgarian mod with Beyond the Sword and if not, is there a Bulgarian Mod for Beyond the Sword?

Thank you in advance

 

[pataroka]

I have a working mod that adds Bulgarian civ to the game, the only reason I did not release it officially is that I didn't find anyone interested to work on the graphic part. The mod can be reworked for BTS xpansion without any problem. But if there are people who want to help it will be really appreciated, since I don't have a lot of time to work on that lately.