The Balrog
***Not Perm Banned***
- Joined
- Oct 7, 2001
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- 713
YOu are sooooo annoying, you think that you are so good, SO JUST SHUT UP if you havent got anything good to say.
Bullfights: art or massacre.
- Thread starter pavelsu
- Start date
Melinder
Cat Petter
Ev'ry body SIMMAH DOWN NAH!!!
amadeus
Bishop of Bio-Dome
I wouldn't say that bullfighting is barbaric...
More people have died in soccer and hockey riots than professional bullfights...
More people have died in soccer and hockey riots than professional bullfights...
Waku
Chieftain
More have died because of traffic accidents than because of smoking and no one is quiting driving
Kev
Hired Goon
thorgalaeg:
I appreciate your comments and can see where you disagree. I didn't know that the bull's meat is then used for food after they are killed. It takes away that part of my argument, but I still can't help but see the whole escapade as cruel and barbaric. I've been trying to see things from your own point of view, but I guess I'm too entrenched in my own upbringing to see things from the Spanish culture point of view.
Here is why I still think the way I do:
1. Trying to equate bullfighting with hunting was perhaps a stretch of an analogy as they are not exactly the same. Those who hunt for food are out to kill an animal born wild and will usually make the effort to kill the animal cleanly and quickly. My recollections of what happens during a bullfight, is that the bullfighter is considered a greater talent if he can keep the bull alive for a good length of time. I know I've seen where the bull has been stuck many times with a sword or spear, and it's not until the bullfighter delivers the last, killing blow that it'll finally go down. To me, this smacks of torture really. That's just how I see it.
2. The idea that killing provides entertainment and/or excitement to a large crowd in an arena is baffling to me. Say what you want about how slaughterhouses are run or what hunters may or may not do, but in neither of those cases are there thousands of people all hanging around cheering and delighting in the killing. I've tried to come up with another case in modern times where the killing of something is the source of entertainment (legally). The nearest thing I can come up with that is even close is something like boxing. Yeah, a stretch, but in boxing at least it's two (supposedly) equal combatants and there is no death (purposely) involved.
3. I don't like the argument that the bulls are bred for this. It's not as if this practice could not be stopped. It's almost as if some are saying "they are so aggressive that they HAVE to be killed". If that's the case, kill them humanely and stop breeding the damn things.
4. While I can appreciate a county's culture and history, I'm not a fan of using this as an argument either. Because it was done is Spain throught history doesn't mean that is must continue. Different times bring (one hopes) greater enlightenment, and over time other practices that many have seen as barbaric have ended (e.g. the Roman Colisseum).
Well, that's about it. I guess we can agree to disagree on this, but I would point out that in this and other polls I've seen the overwheliming majority of non-Spainards disagree with the practice.
I'm curious if this issue is brought up in Spain and what the people there say about it. I'd like it if you could give me an idea. I was under the impression that even in Spain, and other countries that have bullfights, that they are not as well attended and may end up folding in any case due to lack of an audience. Please give me an idea of how that stands.
I appreciate your comments and can see where you disagree. I didn't know that the bull's meat is then used for food after they are killed. It takes away that part of my argument, but I still can't help but see the whole escapade as cruel and barbaric. I've been trying to see things from your own point of view, but I guess I'm too entrenched in my own upbringing to see things from the Spanish culture point of view.
Here is why I still think the way I do:
1. Trying to equate bullfighting with hunting was perhaps a stretch of an analogy as they are not exactly the same. Those who hunt for food are out to kill an animal born wild and will usually make the effort to kill the animal cleanly and quickly. My recollections of what happens during a bullfight, is that the bullfighter is considered a greater talent if he can keep the bull alive for a good length of time. I know I've seen where the bull has been stuck many times with a sword or spear, and it's not until the bullfighter delivers the last, killing blow that it'll finally go down. To me, this smacks of torture really. That's just how I see it.
2. The idea that killing provides entertainment and/or excitement to a large crowd in an arena is baffling to me. Say what you want about how slaughterhouses are run or what hunters may or may not do, but in neither of those cases are there thousands of people all hanging around cheering and delighting in the killing. I've tried to come up with another case in modern times where the killing of something is the source of entertainment (legally). The nearest thing I can come up with that is even close is something like boxing. Yeah, a stretch, but in boxing at least it's two (supposedly) equal combatants and there is no death (purposely) involved.
3. I don't like the argument that the bulls are bred for this. It's not as if this practice could not be stopped. It's almost as if some are saying "they are so aggressive that they HAVE to be killed". If that's the case, kill them humanely and stop breeding the damn things.
4. While I can appreciate a county's culture and history, I'm not a fan of using this as an argument either. Because it was done is Spain throught history doesn't mean that is must continue. Different times bring (one hopes) greater enlightenment, and over time other practices that many have seen as barbaric have ended (e.g. the Roman Colisseum).
Well, that's about it. I guess we can agree to disagree on this, but I would point out that in this and other polls I've seen the overwheliming majority of non-Spainards disagree with the practice.
I'm curious if this issue is brought up in Spain and what the people there say about it. I'd like it if you could give me an idea. I was under the impression that even in Spain, and other countries that have bullfights, that they are not as well attended and may end up folding in any case due to lack of an audience. Please give me an idea of how that stands.
CurtSibling
ENEMY ACE™
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2001
- Messages
- 29,455
Bullfights: art or massacre.
Depends on who you ask; The Matador or the Bull...
Depends on who you ask; The Matador or the Bull...
Ok i read the whole thread, and i'm telling you all to shut up and quit *****ing about this stupid thing.
Bull fighting is a pointless barbaric "sport"
Just like the Gladiators.
Why don't you adopt a less primitive sport like baseball, basketball or football.
Bullfighting is simply a pointless, pathetic primitive massacre "sport"
Bull fighting is a pointless barbaric "sport"
Just like the Gladiators.
Why don't you adopt a less primitive sport like baseball, basketball or football.
Bullfighting is simply a pointless, pathetic primitive massacre "sport"
TheDuckOfFlanders
the fish collecter
I agree with him.Eventualy ,it's their culture ,and their bull's.
These day's million's of pig's ,chicken's and a lot more sort's of breading animal's are kept in the most depraving condition's.The bull is only being solidair with the other animal's on that part.i advice you to first look in youre own kitchen.
Besides ,these spannish bull's ,they have quite a life i think.A nice big lap of grasland to grace on and some cow's to furtilize.
And to die in a bullring:
Atleast you get a chance.Surely not alway's the toreador win's.And it's better to die on atleast a bit hounarable death than to die in a meat processing plant.
Besides for a lot of Macho spannish men it's THE way to score with girls.
But this game has been there for over thousands of years ,and it's deeply rooted in their society.And it bring's in Income from the touristas.
Thorgalaeg
Deity
Kev, you look like a reasonable person and I respect your opinions, so I will spend little my time answering you.
1.
The bullfighting is divided in four parts or times:
FIRST. fight with cape, in this first part the bullfighter fights to the such bull and as the animal it goes out to the arena.
SECOND. Pike and "banderillas". This part is the one that seems to be crueller (or in fact it is the cruellest). From an armoured horse the "picador" it goes in to the bull a lance with a small peak to diminish the force of the animal, and then the bullgighter´s helpers or bullfighter himself put on the "banderillas", which are a few small sticks with peak. this do not affect too much the bull, only they serve to anger it. Quite this bloody process is necessary to be able to realize the third part:
THIRD. The bullfighting with "muleta". The muleta is a cap smaller than the cape. This part is the most difficult dangerous and "artistic", where the bullfighter comes closer more to the bull and puts his life in more danger.
QUARTER. Death. This is very important. The bullfighter kills to the bull with the sword throwing himself between the animal´s
horns. In this point is when more bullfighters have died, dying they at the same time as the bull.
The wounds that happen to bull in the second part are not, in any way mortal, of fact the reprieved bulls are recovered without difficulty. The bull dies only for the sword that is the only weapon in arena that can hurt it of death.
2.
In this point you are mistaken. They do not enjoy the pain of the bull, enjoy the movements of the bullfighter, his skill, his elegance, his sobriety and the "mutual understanding" that the man can reach with the animal. It is very dificult to estimate all that since there is infinity of details that escape from the not expert observer , in this respect the bullfighting looks like the kabuki theatre and other oriental very elaborated arts.
In fact there is no personage more hated by the public that the horsebreaker, who fixes the lance in the bull hurting it, and there is no anything badly for the reputation of a bullfighter that not to manage to kill to the bull the first time, making it suffer.
3.
I did not want to say it. Only I wanted to say that a beautiful species as the brave bull is would become extinct if the bullfughts were not existing, since they are animal very expensive and difficult to support that it can not be profitable of any other way.
4.
I do not try to justify the bullfighting only because it is a tradition, but if I consider it to be notable from an aesthetic point of view and in certain artistic way. Hemingway said that the bullfighter was the only artist who was putting his life in danger.
About bullfight actual status:
The bullfighting crossed twenty years ago a stage of decadence, due to the death in the arena of the greatest bullgighter in that time and to the lack of young bullfighters that were replacing him, but in the last years a great summit is obvious in all the countries where it is practised. Today there is a bullfighters' great quantity young men who did not exist before.
About Bullfighters' deaths:
The death is a part of the bullfight. It is present in the death of the bull and in the possible death of the bullfighter. The bullfighter´ death is increasingly rare, though the bull hurts the bullfighter very often (even more frequently that years ago) producing to him wounds that a few years ago had been mortal, today, for the advances of the medicine and the better preparation of the bullrings, it do not provoke (normaly) the bullfighter´ death . Julian lópez "el Juli ", for example, with only twenty years old has the body full of enormous scars. This anyhow is a part of "fiesta" and the bullfighter accepts it as something of just person, because the bull dies in the arena too.
1.
The bullfighting is divided in four parts or times:
FIRST. fight with cape, in this first part the bullfighter fights to the such bull and as the animal it goes out to the arena.
SECOND. Pike and "banderillas". This part is the one that seems to be crueller (or in fact it is the cruellest). From an armoured horse the "picador" it goes in to the bull a lance with a small peak to diminish the force of the animal, and then the bullgighter´s helpers or bullfighter himself put on the "banderillas", which are a few small sticks with peak. this do not affect too much the bull, only they serve to anger it. Quite this bloody process is necessary to be able to realize the third part:
THIRD. The bullfighting with "muleta". The muleta is a cap smaller than the cape. This part is the most difficult dangerous and "artistic", where the bullfighter comes closer more to the bull and puts his life in more danger.
QUARTER. Death. This is very important. The bullfighter kills to the bull with the sword throwing himself between the animal´s
horns. In this point is when more bullfighters have died, dying they at the same time as the bull.
The wounds that happen to bull in the second part are not, in any way mortal, of fact the reprieved bulls are recovered without difficulty. The bull dies only for the sword that is the only weapon in arena that can hurt it of death.
2.
In this point you are mistaken. They do not enjoy the pain of the bull, enjoy the movements of the bullfighter, his skill, his elegance, his sobriety and the "mutual understanding" that the man can reach with the animal. It is very dificult to estimate all that since there is infinity of details that escape from the not expert observer , in this respect the bullfighting looks like the kabuki theatre and other oriental very elaborated arts.
In fact there is no personage more hated by the public that the horsebreaker, who fixes the lance in the bull hurting it, and there is no anything badly for the reputation of a bullfighter that not to manage to kill to the bull the first time, making it suffer.
3.
I did not want to say it. Only I wanted to say that a beautiful species as the brave bull is would become extinct if the bullfughts were not existing, since they are animal very expensive and difficult to support that it can not be profitable of any other way.
4.
I do not try to justify the bullfighting only because it is a tradition, but if I consider it to be notable from an aesthetic point of view and in certain artistic way. Hemingway said that the bullfighter was the only artist who was putting his life in danger.
About bullfight actual status:
The bullfighting crossed twenty years ago a stage of decadence, due to the death in the arena of the greatest bullgighter in that time and to the lack of young bullfighters that were replacing him, but in the last years a great summit is obvious in all the countries where it is practised. Today there is a bullfighters' great quantity young men who did not exist before.
About Bullfighters' deaths:
The death is a part of the bullfight. It is present in the death of the bull and in the possible death of the bullfighter. The bullfighter´ death is increasingly rare, though the bull hurts the bullfighter very often (even more frequently that years ago) producing to him wounds that a few years ago had been mortal, today, for the advances of the medicine and the better preparation of the bullrings, it do not provoke (normaly) the bullfighter´ death . Julian lópez "el Juli ", for example, with only twenty years old has the body full of enormous scars. This anyhow is a part of "fiesta" and the bullfighter accepts it as something of just person, because the bull dies in the arena too.
Kev
Hired Goon
Thorgalaeg:
I thank you for all of the information. While I still do not agree with the practice, I can at least understand it much better.
I'll just respond to one thing:
While answering my second point, you wrote:
In this point you are mistaken. They do not enjoy the pain of the bull, enjoy the movements of the bullfighter, his skill, his elegance, his sobriety and the "mutual understanding" that the man can reach with the animal. It is very dificult to estimate all that since there is infinity of details that escape from the not expert observer , in this respect the bullfighting looks like the kabuki theatre and other oriental very elaborated arts.
My question then becomes: Why then do they have to kill the bull in the first place?
I know, the obvious answer is that is how it's always been done. Obviously, it would not be received at all if they tried to change the bullfighting and make it bull'dancing'
My point is that if the wondrous part of the bullfight is the movement of the bullfighter and the risk that the bullfighter is undertaking and that people don't enjoy the bull's pain then why was it instituted?
I'm going to assume it's because the delivery of the death blow delivers a climax and is the most dangerous time of the match as you have explained. Still doesn't sit right with me, and it is still my hope that the practice eventually ends.
'nuff said from my end. We'll just have to respectfully disagree. Thanks for the discussion.
I thank you for all of the information. While I still do not agree with the practice, I can at least understand it much better.
I'll just respond to one thing:
While answering my second point, you wrote:
In this point you are mistaken. They do not enjoy the pain of the bull, enjoy the movements of the bullfighter, his skill, his elegance, his sobriety and the "mutual understanding" that the man can reach with the animal. It is very dificult to estimate all that since there is infinity of details that escape from the not expert observer , in this respect the bullfighting looks like the kabuki theatre and other oriental very elaborated arts.
My question then becomes: Why then do they have to kill the bull in the first place?
I know, the obvious answer is that is how it's always been done. Obviously, it would not be received at all if they tried to change the bullfighting and make it bull'dancing'
My point is that if the wondrous part of the bullfight is the movement of the bullfighter and the risk that the bullfighter is undertaking and that people don't enjoy the bull's pain then why was it instituted?
I'm going to assume it's because the delivery of the death blow delivers a climax and is the most dangerous time of the match as you have explained. Still doesn't sit right with me, and it is still my hope that the practice eventually ends.
'nuff said from my end. We'll just have to respectfully disagree. Thanks for the discussion.
allan
Cabrón
"I don't care who has the advantage, the point is: The bull is born with its horns, the man isnt born with a Sword, so the fight is freakin unfair!"
If by "fair" you mean "equal", the two creatures AREN'T equal in terms of "what they are born with"--the bull is clearly superior in size, weight, strength, and the presence of its horns.
Therefore the human is given things to make up for his disadvantage with what he's "born with".
I say leave it be--let the Spanish people decide whether or not they want to continue to be audiences to it....
If by "fair" you mean "equal", the two creatures AREN'T equal in terms of "what they are born with"--the bull is clearly superior in size, weight, strength, and the presence of its horns.
Therefore the human is given things to make up for his disadvantage with what he's "born with".
I say leave it be--let the Spanish people decide whether or not they want to continue to be audiences to it....
Thorgalaeg
Deity
Kev:
A bull can be fought only once because once fought the bull learns to to distinguish perfectly the "muleta" of the bullfighter and it is not possible to return to fight. Therefore the bull fought already does not serve for anything and is sacrificed for food.
What you propose already is done in Portugal, there it is fought to the animal and then, minutes later, is sacrificed without any dignity, in the slaughter house.
It does not seem to me likely to kill to the animal furtively not to hurt the "sensibility" of the spectator, the good of the bullfighting is that is a real thing and there is no anything that ocultre to "protect" the spectator.
In fact, in Portugal they are intending to restore the death of the bull in the arena, as it is in other countries, and as debit to be in my opinion.
Itis certain as already I explained above. But this is slightly common due to the fact that today there are bulls of fewer quality. Nevertheless in Southamerica, Mexico and France is a more common practice because they are less demanding. The reprieved bull can not be fought again and there lives the rest of its life in the field, serving like stallion.
A bull can be fought only once because once fought the bull learns to to distinguish perfectly the "muleta" of the bullfighter and it is not possible to return to fight. Therefore the bull fought already does not serve for anything and is sacrificed for food.
What you propose already is done in Portugal, there it is fought to the animal and then, minutes later, is sacrificed without any dignity, in the slaughter house.
It does not seem to me likely to kill to the animal furtively not to hurt the "sensibility" of the spectator, the good of the bullfighting is that is a real thing and there is no anything that ocultre to "protect" the spectator.
In fact, in Portugal they are intending to restore the death of the bull in the arena, as it is in other countries, and as debit to be in my opinion.
Itis certain as already I explained above. But this is slightly common due to the fact that today there are bulls of fewer quality. Nevertheless in Southamerica, Mexico and France is a more common practice because they are less demanding. The reprieved bull can not be fought again and there lives the rest of its life in the field, serving like stallion.
MCdread
Couldn't she get drowned?
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2001
- Messages
- 5,348
Well, this is one of my favourite subjects of discussion here in Portugal. We also have bullfights, but they are completely different from the ones in Spain. In Portugal the bull is fought by horse. Each horseman has a bull and they spit some "bandarilhas" in the animal. Then the horseman leaves and the "forcados" come into the arena. This a group of people that faces the bull with naked hands. This is called the "pega". It consists of the following. One of the guys takes some steaps ahead and continues walking towards the bull calling him and the others wait behind. Eventually the bull invests and hits him. The guy embraces the animal and holds to him. The other men serve as shields and try to stop the bull and one grabs his tail. Finally the bull stops with tiredness and everyone leaves the arena, including the bull. In the backstage the bull is generally killed and sold for meat.
So, Thorgalaeg, you are right when you say that the bull is killed outside the fight itself, but you're not well informed when you say the portuguese are intending to restore the death of the bull in the arena. The so called "Corrida à Portuguesa" has 2 centuries of history in the shapes I described and the death of the bull is not a part of it. What you probably heard was the case of Barrancos, a small town that is like a peninsula into spanish territory where they practice the death of the bull in a spanish type bullfight. This was considered a crime untill 2 years ago, but now they only have to pay a fine. But since there are no "matadores" in Portugal, they hire 3rd division spanish ones.
About my opinion on this subject, I must say I am totally against this type of spectacles. People say it is a tradition, but so was the Inqusition in the Iberian Peninsula for 300 years, so were the gladiator fights, and so is the female castration in some parts of Africa, yet we all stand against these brutal acts, past and present. People say that this type of bulls would be extinct if the bullfights did not exist, but must the bull pay with his death in front of thousands because of that? The price to live is to die in the arena? Yo call tht dignity, Thorgalaeg? To die for the pleasure of a crowd, to be trespassed by a sword and to carry a few iron spears in the backs?
And please, you can fool all those americans and northern europeans, by saying that it would be an insult to hurt the bull before he enters the arena like in the american rodeos, but you can't fool me. Most of the time the aggressiveness of the bull has much to do to the things that are inflicted to him just before the fight. This includes putting pepper and salt in his nails and throat and also hitting the genitals with sticks.
When I was a kid I enjoyed watching it, but now I'm totally against it. I also realized that it's not me the one in minority in my country (even though it does not compares to the bullfight industry in Spain). It's the "aficcionados" that are in minoprity in the civilized world.
So, Thorgalaeg, you are right when you say that the bull is killed outside the fight itself, but you're not well informed when you say the portuguese are intending to restore the death of the bull in the arena. The so called "Corrida à Portuguesa" has 2 centuries of history in the shapes I described and the death of the bull is not a part of it. What you probably heard was the case of Barrancos, a small town that is like a peninsula into spanish territory where they practice the death of the bull in a spanish type bullfight. This was considered a crime untill 2 years ago, but now they only have to pay a fine. But since there are no "matadores" in Portugal, they hire 3rd division spanish ones.
About my opinion on this subject, I must say I am totally against this type of spectacles. People say it is a tradition, but so was the Inqusition in the Iberian Peninsula for 300 years, so were the gladiator fights, and so is the female castration in some parts of Africa, yet we all stand against these brutal acts, past and present. People say that this type of bulls would be extinct if the bullfights did not exist, but must the bull pay with his death in front of thousands because of that? The price to live is to die in the arena? Yo call tht dignity, Thorgalaeg? To die for the pleasure of a crowd, to be trespassed by a sword and to carry a few iron spears in the backs?
And please, you can fool all those americans and northern europeans, by saying that it would be an insult to hurt the bull before he enters the arena like in the american rodeos, but you can't fool me. Most of the time the aggressiveness of the bull has much to do to the things that are inflicted to him just before the fight. This includes putting pepper and salt in his nails and throat and also hitting the genitals with sticks.
When I was a kid I enjoyed watching it, but now I'm totally against it. I also realized that it's not me the one in minority in my country (even though it does not compares to the bullfight industry in Spain). It's the "aficcionados" that are in minoprity in the civilized world.
Thanks for the post MCdread. Very informative. It is good to hear another source voice in this discussion.
As far as the rodeo thing goes, I'm not a big fan of some of those events either. Some are fine, such as barrel racing, but the bull riding and calf roping seem a bit pointless and possibly cruel to me. Calf roping in and of itself is not bad, since it is simply a way to capture a calf that may need medical attention or to be seperated, but making it a sport doesn't serve much of a point. Might as well make cattle branding a sport.
As far as the rodeo thing goes, I'm not a big fan of some of those events either. Some are fine, such as barrel racing, but the bull riding and calf roping seem a bit pointless and possibly cruel to me. Calf roping in and of itself is not bad, since it is simply a way to capture a calf that may need medical attention or to be seperated, but making it a sport doesn't serve much of a point. Might as well make cattle branding a sport.
Thorgalaeg
Deity
The bullfighting is, in fact, an industry as any another cattle industry, only that in bullfighting the animals live in almost freedom along five years and not a few months Heaped in an intensive farm.
Nothing of what I have said above is false. Not if it of the salt and quite this history is done in Portugal, but here I assure you that here dont. Dont fool you to me.
In Spain "aficionados" are not precisely a minority. So Spain is not civilized world and Portugal is, do you want to say it?
Nothing of what I have said above is false. Not if it of the salt and quite this history is done in Portugal, but here I assure you that here dont. Dont fool you to me.
In Spain "aficionados" are not precisely a minority. So Spain is not civilized world and Portugal is, do you want to say it?
CurtSibling
ENEMY ACE™
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2001
- Messages
- 29,455
Originally posted by Thorgalaeg
In Spain "aficionados" are not precisely a minority. So Spain is not civilized world and Portugal is, do you want to say it?
Spain is as civilised as any other European nation.
It's just that bull-fighting seems to be a direct throwback to your Roman past.
Fighting animals in arenas has been considered barbaric by most
of Europe for many years...
Bull fighting is pointless, you say it's an industry, but so are drugs...
