Burqa ban in France goes into effect today..

[Cheetah]

The government should not ban anything that does not SPECIFICALLY hurt someone else. For instance, the government should not ban wearing a burka just because someone could be forced to wear it. They should deal (Harshly) with those who force others to wear it, but leave those who wear it by choice alone.

On the other hand, driving past the speed limit (Assuming its a speed limit fairly set) does hurt someone else since reckless driving is dangerous.

I think you see my point.

I do, and in general I agree. But do you see my point?

They should deal (Harshly) with those who force others to wear it

HOW? What should be done to actually help women who are being oppressed? I'm not talking about what kind of punishment, but:
1. How do you identify who is being forces to wear it?
2. How do you help those who are forced to wear it?

A blanket ban may harm some women, but it will help far more.

I just wonder if this sort of dress code would be banned if it wasn't traditional muslim clothing, but just a fashion statement.

Spoiler :

My guess is no.

It has nothing to do with Islam. It has to do with culture and trying to help women who are being oppressed by a certain culture. I'm sure it was banned in countries like Turkey and Tunisia also, just because it is a Muslim piece of clothing (how traditional it is can be discussed...)?

They live in a European country, they can get a divorce, get a new life, get a job, they don't have to do it

Right. So unless someone is determined and strong enough to break most of their social bonds, pull themselves up by their bootstraps, and establish their own independent life, then they can just remain were they are. Cause then it can't be that bad, right?

People who are that strong don't need any help like this. This law is for those who aren't that strong.

 

[nato2101]

I'm Muslim, I live in Europe, I don't know anybody who is forced to wear it, hell I hardly know anybody that wears the Hijab, the news did it again, the people that go radical are like 1% of the Muslim population in a country and most woman choose to wear it because they are religious, so your taking away the right to be religious. But you think everyone lives like that, everyone is forced, we are savages...

Don't get upset, I am not attacking Muslims or Islam. However how many women do you know who have made an informed decision to wear the burqa? All the Muslims (men and women) I have met are adamantly against it. And two Muslim countries (Turkey and Tunisia) already have laws forbidding it in public buildings.

 

[NedimNapoleon]

Don't get upset, I am not attacking Muslims or Islam. However how many women do you know who have made an informed decision to wear the burqa? All the Muslims (men and women) I have met are adamantly against it. And two Muslim countries (Turkey and Tunisia) already have laws forbidding it in public buildings.

I hate it too and Im not upset I just hate it when they make it look like everyone does it, I would like a ban of it too but now people think everyone wears it

 

[Cheetah]

I hate it too and Im not upset I just hate it when they make it look like everyone does it, I would like a ban of it too but now people think everyone wears it

Nobody think everybody wears it!

It's been stated again and again that this will only affect perhaps 2,000 women in France.

But of those 2,000, I'm betting there are less than a thousand that does so voluntary.

 

[Steph]

Nobody forces them, its their choice, burqas aren't the only way to cover themselves

If they have the choice to cover themselves with a Niqab instead of a burqa, they shouldn't have a problem with their religious obligation then.

 

[GhostWriter16]

I hate it too and Im not upset I just hate it when they make it look like everyone does it, I would like a ban of it too but now people think everyone wears it

I'm not a fan of burka's either, but banning it? Why, exactly.

If they have the choice to cover themselves with a Niqab instead of a burqa, they shouldn't have a problem with their religious obligation then.

Maybe not. So? I don't have a religious obligation to wear shorts and a T-shirt, but right now, I'm choosing to do so. Who would it "Hurt" if NYS passed a law banning shorts and a T-shirt in non-Summer months? Perhaps it wouldn't do major harm, but still, I can wear whatever the crap I want.

Since when does America own the rights to Freedom? Associating freedom = USA!!1!!111! is both wrong and moronic. France, to say the least, has a tradition of defending liberty going back several thousand years...

Couple hundred, and besides, that doesn't mean they do so now.

 

[nato2101]

Maybe not. So? I don't have a religious obligation to wear shorts and a T-shirt, but right now, I'm choosing to do so. Who would it "Hurt" if NYS passed a law banning shorts and a T-shirt in non-Summer months? Perhaps it wouldn't do major harm, but still, I can wear whatever the crap I want.

You still ignore the fact that the majority of those who do wear do not choose to do so and it does cause a security/identification problem, which shorts and a t-shirt don't.
Btw ski masks are against the law if you are not skiing, so are balaclava's (and both cover less than the burqa)

 

[GhostWriter16]

Btw ski masks are against the law if you are not skiing, so are balaclava's (and both cover less than the burqa)

More proof that France isn't free.

 

[nato2101]

More proof that France isn't free.

Not just in France. They are illegal in America too, as well as GB, Ireland, Italy, Spain, Germany and so forth. The difference is the law tends only to be enforced in specific situations (going into a bank with one of those, etc.)

 

[GhostWriter16]

Not just in France. They are illegal in America too, as well as GB, Ireland, Italy, Spain, Germany and so forth. The difference is the law tends only to be enforced in specific situations (going into a bank with one of those, etc.)

Yeah, that's the difference. In France, the burka ban is enforced regularly apparently.

 

[nato2101]

Yeah, that's the difference. In France, the burka ban is enforced regularly apparently.

It only came into action yesterday.
And when laws are introduced they tend to be enforced completely for the first few months then slip down the totem pole of importance.
Btw why don't you walk down the main street in your town with a balaclava covering your face, lets see what happens.

 

[GhostWriter16]

Btw why don't you walk down the main street in your town with a balaclava covering your face, lets see what happens.

I doubt anyone would pull me over, but why would I want to do that?

 

[GhostWriter16]

No, couple of thousand. Please don't correct a statement that I took time to think over without a proper explanation.

They haven't even existed that long for one thing. For another, I don't really think they defended freedom in Middle Age times.

To contribute more fully to the debate; the ban doesn't stop women who want to wear the burqua from being religious. It prevents them from showing overtly that they are religious, it is a big difference. Laicite is deeply ingrained in French culture and law and proudly defended. In its widest interpretation the principle is that religion should be left to the private sphere and not enter public life. As the ban only affects public areas, it holds to this principle. It doesn't say that women aren't allowed to believe in fundamental Islam, only that worship (in the sense that changing your behavior and actions for religious reasons is worship) should not take place in public.

I agree that this is an infringement of personal liberty, but what law makers and the vast majority of the French public support. Liberty is important, but it is not the only principle when it comes to making laws. As others have stated; protecting others, the liberty of others, allowing everyone to participate as a citizen fully, the cultural sensitivity of the majority and other deeply held principles about what sort of country you want to live in also matter.

Typical statist response, but not really a good one. The "Cultural sensitivity of the majority" really? The majority is irrelevant. Should "How do we know she's a witch? Because she looks like one! Can we burn her?" Be allowed if the majority wants them? What nonsense!

Freedom of all, majorities and minorities, is the most important thing. I don't give a crap about the majority, I want freedom and the majority can screw themselves, or get out.

Or rather, watch this video, its the best way to explain free thought in America

NOTE: Don't critique the part about political spectrum, its irrelevant to the point.

 

[Steph]

No, couple of thousand. Please don't correct a statement that I took time to think over without a proper explanation.

Actually, I'd be curious to see your thinking to reach a couple of thousands, although it would be off topic.

 

[Ajidica]

After reading various posts in this thread, I would like to change my opinion of the 'burqa ban' from dislike to 'wait and see'.

 

[Cheetah]

@Dommy: You haven't answered me this yet. I would be interested to hear your solution.

HOW? What should be done to actually help women who are being oppressed? I'm not talking about what kind of punishment, but:
1. How do you identify who is being forced to wear it?
2. How do you help those who are forced to wear it?

A blanket ban may harm some women, but it will help far more.

 

[innonimatu]

What I want to know is: are there other laws about clothing in France? Are people, say, free to go about naked in the street if they wish, or do they get fined by that also?

Depending on the answer, I'll consider the new french law a non-event or a proof of hypocrisy.

 

[nato2101]

What I want to know is: are there other laws about clothing in France? Are people, say, free to go about naked in the street if they wish, or do they get fined by that also?

Depending on the answer, I'll consider the new french law a non-event or a proof of hypocrisy.

Fined if they are naked unless on a nudist beach. Also other items which cover the face are illegal.

 

[GhostWriter16]

1. How do you identify who is being forced to wear it?

Unless they report it, there's no way to know, unless they are a minor.

2. How do you help those who are forced to wear it?

Banning freedom doesn't help them.

 

[Lillefix]

Banning freedom doesn't help them.

That remains to be seen. Although I fear you're right.