[RD] Butlerian Jihad.

I'm not an atheist, and existential depression isn't really about spirituality. People who believe in an afterlife/creator can still feel existentially aimless or without purpose.

Correct, but what exactly do you believe, anyway? I always got the impression you were a hardcore atheist.

To make an on-the-nose point, there's no reason why you should be living the life you're living right now if you know for a fact that living it differently makes you feel better. I'm certain there are synagogues in your area that have daily/weekly activities and events that you can sign on for and become immersed in.

I'm trying, but my Hebrew isn't up to par for most communal activities (plus the synagogues don't cater to ignorant Jews like they do in America).

Also I get sucked into projects, like creating a mod for CKII that I now have to keep up-to-date.
 
No, the examples of the Amish and Spartans show that cultures can exist that successfully reject luxuries.

Yes, but not everybody is happy in them. Emma Gingerich certainly didn't find her life as an Amish fulfilling.
Spartans, being a bunch of slave-owning (since helots were effectively slaves) militarists, aren't my idea of an ideal society. Personal happiness wasn't a major concern. Duty and being prepared to sacrifice yourself for Sparta were.

There are very good arguments against our excessive consumption but I feel they are environmental for the most part.
 
Yes, but not everybody is happy in them. Emma Gingerich certainly didn't find her life as an Amish fulfilling.

The Amish have the highest retention rates of any culture in history in the face of the liberal West.

Spartans, being a bunch of slave-owning (since helots were effectively slaves) militarists, aren't my idea of an ideal society. Personal happiness wasn't a major concern. Duty and being prepared to sacrifice yourself for Sparta were.

That's not what I want to emulate (good thing we have that Judeo-Christian morality these days). Spartans were forced to eat communally, forego pleasures, eat tasteless black broth, etc and kept it up for hundreds of years. We don't have to go that far; I'm just trying to show that resistance is possible.
 
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Correct, but what exactly do you believe, anyway? I always got the impression you were a hardcore atheist.

I'm more anti-religion than I am atheist, if I had to put a label on it. I was raised in a cult so I have baggage surrounding the idea of a creator. My family's idea of God entailed my father being his vessel and me being God's son by proxy. I'm uncomfortable with (structured) belief in a creator, and especially uncomfortable with belief in a doctrine. Everyone in my family was, is, a rabid believer. Sitting through weekly lectures wherein "God" ranks us on how evil we are and how much we need to repent got tiresome. There were strict rules, strict ideas that needed to be adhered to at all times. I see parallels of my upbringing in the fundamentals of widely accepted religions.

In many ways I'd like for there to be an afterlife. I am obsessively attached to consciousness, and the idea of losing that one day for eternity is an idea that fills me with immense panic. But my upbringing has poisoned the well, I think. I don't believe there are gods, or God. I'm open to it should that be a reality but I just can't see anything that points to "yes".

But through all of that I'm pretty against religion. Having that external control exerting its will over you and others feels slimy, and the most reasonable religious people I come across pretty much all universally take on a more vague adherence to scripture. There are a few religious people I get on well with and none of them are particularly keen on stepping to a Church's beat, although they still follow the underlying rules and tendencies. I typically don't get on well with people who are all about the Church (be it Abrahamic or something else) and its corresponding scripture. The whole "God wills it, trust in God, we have to follow the Word" schpiel might as well be someone spitting on my shoes.

I'm trying, but my Hebrew isn't up to par for most communal activities (plus the synagogues don't cater to ignorant Jews like they do in America).

I can't say whether or not that's true since I'm obviously not there and haven't lived it, but I would have thought they'd be glad to educate someone on how to be a proper Jew. Seems counterproductive to gate-keep participation to an extent where only those born into it can be involved.
 
The Amish have the highest retention rates of any culture in history in the face of the liberal West.

Not sure how you'd measure that. I'd have to emigrate to leave my culture.


That's not what I want to emulate (good thing we have that Judeo-Christian morality these days). Spartans were forced to eat communally, forego pleasures, eat tasteless black broth, etc and kept it up for hundreds of years. We don't have to go that far, certainly. I'm just trying to convey that resistance is possible.

Because Christians were never slaveowners or militarists? Resistance to consumerism is certainly possible but unless you are going to force it on people I don't think many people will do it for spiritual reasons. Monasticism isn't a popular choice nowadays.
 
I'm more anti-religion than I am atheist, if I had to put a label on it. I was raised in a cult so I have baggage surrounding the idea of a creator. My family's idea of God entailed my father being his vessel and me being God's son by proxy. I'm uncomfortable with (structured) belief in a creator, and especially uncomfortable with belief in a doctrine. Everyone in my family was, is, a rabid believer. Sitting through weekly lectures wherein "God" ranks us on how evil we are and how much we need to repent got tiresome. There were strict rules, strict ideas that needed to be adhered to at all times. I see parallels of my upbringing in the fundamentals of widely accepted religions.
...
But through all of that I'm pretty against religion. Having that external control exerting its will over you and others feels slimy, and the most reasonable religious people I come across pretty much all universally take on a more vague adherence to scripture. There are a few religious people I get on well with and none of them are particularly keen on stepping to a Church's beat, although they still follow the underlying rules and tendencies. I typically don't get on well with people who are all about the Church (be it Abrahamic or something else) and its corresponding scripture. The whole "God wills it, trust in God, we have to follow the Word" schpiel might as well be someone spitting on my shoes.

I don't know how possible it is to overcome that childhood, but the words that fill you with disgust are a ray of light to people suffering in the direst circumstances. You should consider that others had a very different upbringing and that divine authority, which (unlike cults) takes power from human hands, is the antidote for their particular demons.

My recommendation is The Screwtape Letters. It's no guarantee, but it had a powerful effect on me (even though I think that hell is an absurd doctrine, this did not detract from the genuine wisdom and insight of the book).

In many ways I'd like for there to be an afterlife. I am obsessively attached to consciousness, and the idea of losing that one day for eternity is an idea that fills me with immense panic.

I think an afterlife is a very likely outcome, regardless of whether God exists.

I can't say whether or not that's true since I'm obviously not there and haven't lived it, but I would have thought they'd be glad to educate someone on how to be a proper Jew. Seems counterproductive to gate-keep participation to an extent where only those born into it can be involved.

That's not true, Gentiles can convert, and my situation is also somewhat due to my backwater location. There's only one other Westerner in the entire town (ironically, a former Mennonite). We wouldn't have moved here at all if not for my Dad inheriting a house from my grandma.

And... the local Chabad is Messianist. Not all Chabadniks are, but it's just a bit creepy for my tastes.
 
Every human being is enmeshed in their host society in a thousand ways, to the point that even relatively minute differences (like British/American) can be hard to adjust to. By contrast, almost nobody - with very, very, rare exceptions - interacts in any meaningful way with the crawling mass of humanity as a whole.

Mythologies, families, and friends are biologically rooted in humans, and those are inherently local.
But how are you delineating a "host society" from "humanity"? You seem to emphasise locality, but how far does "local" extend? A neighbourhood, a city, a county? You seem to cite the United States as an example, but a country of that physical and demographic massiveness surely stretches the definition of "local" well beyond breaking point.

I think the problem here is that you're unable to reconcile your desire to identify organic or natural communities, and your political investment in the profoundly inorganic and unnatural form of the nation-state. You can't sustain a simultaneous hostility to and enthusiasm for invented communities- or, at least, not without trapping yourself in just the sort of spiritual malaise you decry in modern man. As much as you position yourself as a critic of modernity, you're a prisoner to its constructs.
 
But how are you delineating a "host society" from "humanity"? You seem to emphasise locality, but how far does "local" extend? A neighbourhood, a city, a county? You seem to cite the United States as an example, but a country of that physical and demographic massiveness surely stretches the definition of "local" well beyond breaking point.

We interact with different levels of community in different ways. As the saying goes, "I against my brother, my brothers and I against my cousins, then my cousins and I against strangers." Unlike the monostructure of fascist thinking, which provides globalists like yourself with a strawman to use against real nationalists, I don't define myself by any one thing.

As for your objection, well, nationstates are usually defined by cultural and narrative similarities. We can see that that is enough for members of groups as similar as British and Americans to form tight diaspora bonds in each country.

I think the problem here is that you're unable to reconcile your desire to identify organic or natural communities, and your political investment in the profoundly inorganic and unnatural form of the nation-state. You can't sustain a simultaneous hostility to and enthusiasm for invented communities- or, at least, not without trapping yourself in just the sort of spiritual malaise you decry in modern man. As much as you position yourself as a critic of modernity, you're a prisoner to its constructs.

You got all that just from my one example? :huh:

Look, stop calling yourself Scottish. We happen to have different beliefs, we come from different landmasses, and were raised in different cultures, but that's no reason to apply any labels. Because of our ancestry? That's Nazi stuff, man.
 
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We interact with different levels of community in different ways. As the saying goes, "I against my brother, my brothers and I against my cousins, then my cousins and I against strangers." Unlike the monostructure of fascist thinking, which provides globalists like yourself with a strawman to use against real nationalists, I don't define myself by any one thing.

As for your objection, well, nationstates are usually defined by cultural and narrative similarities. We can see that that is enough for members of groups as similar as British and Americans to form tight diaspora bonds in each country.
I agree, they are so defined. But "defined" is a verb, and a verb implies an actor. Who is doing the defining? Who defines what differences can be accommodated by the bonds of nationhood, and which are themselves constitutive of national difference? What makes a person a Tajik rather than an Iranian? How was it decided that Russia should be so very big, and Montenegro so very small? Who decided that language is enough to provide for distinct nationality among Frenchmen and Dutchmen, but not Walloons and Flemings? Why are the Ulstermen true blue Brits or wayward Irishmen, depending on who you ask? If people cannot apply a coherent standard across cases, and cannot even agree on which standards to use in a given case, then we're looking at some rather less than a science.

You seem to acknowledge that the nationalist claim to represent a unique level of cultural significance is dubious, but you avoid saying as much, and also appeal to the upstanding character of "real nationalists", among whom you presumably count yourself. So how do you reconcile all this? I think the appeal to "narrative similarities" is likely to figure into your response, but does that not concede that the nation is not, if not artificial, then something invented, and therefore difficulty to see as the natural, organic and authentic community you want us to perceive it as?

(Also, let's all take a moment to reflect on the surrealness of a Jew calling a European with at least nationalist-adjacent politics a "globalist". It would give your average Stormfronter an aneurysm. :lol:)

You got all that just from my one example? :huh:
Well, from your entire posting history, at least from the last year or so.

Look, stop calling yourself Scottish already. We happen to have different beliefs, we come from different landmasses, and were raised in different cultures, but that's clearly no reason to apply any labels. Because of our ancestry? That's Nazi stuff, man.
Scottish national identity is quite interesting in that it's fairly explicitly historical. The Scotland exists because it has existed for as long as anyone can remember. I think people tend to miss this because it's adopted a lot of the trappings of ethnic and cultural nationalism, and liberal objections that Scottish nationalism is purely civic remain unconvincing because tradition and history are clearly very important in defining Scotland and Scottishness. From what I understand, this is fairly similar to how Sweden, Denmark and Norway tend to think of themselves, and how the English might think of themselves if they ever crawl out from under the baggage of their failed empire.

Speaking for myself, I believe that Scottish nationality is a simply empirical question. Scotland exists, because it clearly does. It hasn't always existed, and we might expect that it may one day cease to exist. It embodies no absolute principle, it simply is.
 
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I stumbled across a wonderful Twitter thread just now and thought it would be an excellent reason to continue the thread. So many insights to unpack. Read it!

Also, I did not realize Traitorfish responded to my last post, so I feel I owe him one.

I agree, they are so defined. But "defined" is a verb, and a verb implies an actor. Who is doing the defining? Who defines what differences can be accommodated by the bonds of nationhood, and which are themselves constitutive of national difference? What makes a person a Tajik rather than an Iranian?

The people themselves, at a very basic level. That's my entire point. The fact that they cannot explain it and offer spurious justifications for it only demonstrates its very rootedness in human instinct (intellectuals, who judge things on how well they are argued for, are incapable of understanding this).

How was it decided that Russia should be so very big, and Montenegro so very small?

The group that eventually developed a Russian identity conquered lots of land, while the group that developed into Montenegrins were ruled by Turks.

Who decided that language is enough to provide for distinct nationality among Frenchmen and Dutchmen, but not Walloons and Flemings?

I don't think it is simply due to language. More like shared history, narrative, customs, and political structure (also commonly geography, but France isn't an example of that).

Why are the Ulstermen true blue Brits or wayward Irishmen, depending on who you ask? If people cannot apply a coherent standard across cases, and cannot even agree on which standards to use in a given case, then we're looking at some rather less than a science.

Rather more, you mean. Don't demean identity by comparing it to the fraudulent paradigms of social scientists.

Your reasoning applies to economic strata as well, so as for that Marx...

You seem to acknowledge that the nationalist claim to represent a unique level of cultural significance is dubious, but you avoid saying as much, and also appeal to the upstanding character of "real nationalists", among whom you presumably count yourself. So how do you reconcile all this?

I wouldn't trust any nationalist who doesn't also respect the family and the small town.

I think the appeal to "narrative similarities" is likely to figure into your response, but does that not concede that the nation is not, if not artificial, then something invented, and therefore difficulty to see as the natural, organic and authentic community you want us to perceive it as?

This is a... strange thing for someone who's even conversant in anthropology to say. Stories are a fundamental part of the human psyche. They are the reason we organize at all beyond the level of 'follow the strongest male.'

Scottish national identity is quite interesting in that it's fairly explicitly historical. The Scotland exists because it has existed for as long as anyone can remember. I think people tend to miss this because it's adopted a lot of the trappings of ethnic and cultural nationalism, and liberal objections that Scottish nationalism is purely civic remain unconvincing because tradition and history are clearly very important in defining Scotland and Scottishness. From what I understand, this is fairly similar to how Sweden, Denmark and Norway tend to think of themselves, and how the English might think of themselves if they ever crawl out from under the baggage of their failed empire.

This seems fairly reasonable, and I think there is a case to be made that dissolving the Union would be good for England. But progressives also want to dissolve the underpinnings of English identity, like the monarchy. When political traditions are delegitimized, it does not usher in a more just society - it creates apathy, chaos, and resentment (i.e. what is happening now with your glorious Brexit).

Scotland exists, because it clearly does. It hasn't always existed, and we might expect that it may one day cease to exist.

Hey, we don't know the future. Wait for it to happen before breaking out the bottles. :mischief:

It embodies no absolute principle, it simply is.

Only racists - by which I mean the explicit racists, not the people insufficiently aware of their White Privilege - believe that group identity embodies some absolute principle. Of course, their conception of which people belong to which group is rather different from other nationalists.
 
No one is calling it quits. I want to see Amish Martian colonies.
The Amish/Mennonite etc. cultures often appear
ideal, but like most "tribal" cultures they are repressive, unforgiving of those who struggle with cultural confinement and excessive restrictions and oppressive towards women and other groups. Similar cultural features can be found among traditional Native American tribes, the Taliban and their ilk and repressive dictatorial regimes like NK.

I'm given to understand that Marxist 'intellectuals' like to interpret everything as part of their favorite theory...
No, the examples of the Amish and Spartans show that cultures can exist that successfully reject luxuries.
That is a major failing for Marxists. They put everything in a ideological context and that blinds them to reality and increases the failure rate of their ideas.

As for living without luxuries, people did that for many thousands of years before agriculture allowed for real luxury to be possible. For the most part since then, choosing to go without luxury has been a part of fascist-like tribalesque groups as a way to control their members and keep everyone except the leaders "equal". That kind of enforced social equality only survives under dictatorial conditions and when that control mechanism goes away, people arrange themselves in other ways.

The Amish have the highest retention rates of any culture in history in the face of the liberal West.
That's not what I want to emulate (good thing we have that Judeo-Christian morality these days). Spartans were forced to eat communally, forego pleasures, eat tasteless black broth, etc and kept it up for hundreds of years. We don't have to go that far; I'm just trying to show that resistance is possible.
The best way to fight consumerism is to consume less. One can do it through self discipline or depriving oneself of the means to consume (be poor).
 
The Amish/Mennonite etc. cultures often appear
ideal, but like most "tribal" cultures they are repressive, unforgiving of those who struggle with cultural confinement and excessive restrictions and oppressive towards women and other groups. Similar cultural features can be found among traditional Native American tribes,

Yet, somehow they are much happier. They have half the suicide rate of the general population, are healthier despite their rejection of modern medical practices, do work that is meaningful to them, and are addiction-free. Small consolation my "rights" are to me.

the Taliban and their ilk and repressive dictatorial regimes like NK.

It's not fair to compare them to organizations that coerce others. The Korean people do not maintain Juche of their own volition.
 
Yet, somehow they are much happier. They have half the suicide rate of the general population, are healthier despite their rejection of modern medical practices, do work that is meaningful to them, and are addiction-free. Small consolation my "rights" are to me.

It's not fair to compare them to organizations that coerce others. The Korean people do not maintain Juche of their own volition.
There are about 300,000 Amish in North America. for the most part they do not smoke or drink and they do lots of physical labor. that alone could account for better health statistics. You could of course do those on your own if you are disciplined enough. The Amish do own guns, but only for hunting (not self defense) so that certainly implies long guns and not pistols. I'm thinking that there are far fewer ways to commit suicide in Amish communities: no pistols, no tall buildings, no cars, no modern medicines. Also they do have very strong family bonds that even given their strict community rules, they have better support systems close at hand. Like most cults, they force children to integrate from a very young age and then make them choose in their late teens if they want to stay. The goal is to make leaving very difficult. How are you measuring happiness here?

If you (collective) like religious fundamentalism and a very strict and structured life with few changes over time, such communities might be just right.

Similar cultural features can be found among traditional Native American tribes, the Taliban and their ilk and repressive dictatorial regimes like NK.
The Amish are repressive and one has to accept that repression to enjoy its benefits. They live in family groups so each community is relatively small and the social structure used is less tyrannical that the methods of a nation like NK, but the dictatorial constraints are similar. If you don't follow the rules, the community will respond harshly. In tribal communities the repression is masked as "traditional ways" that are not open for public scrutiny or viewing. The Amish shun disobedient members as their way to coerce those who stray from the rules. They take away the community and leave the offenders isolated. I see little difference between how the Amish structure their culture to keep it alive and how fundamental Islamists or other similar religious groups do. Punishments differ of course across them, but the goals are usually the same: repress non traditional thinking and changing ways keep the status quo.
 
Like most cults, they force children to integrate from a very young age and then make them choose in their late teens if they want to stay.

The former is something all healthy cultures do, not merely cults, and the latter is not done by cults at all.

The goal is to make leaving very difficult. How are you measuring happiness here?

Doesn't look it to me. Seems like the whole idea is about ensuring that only those who commit to the life actually have to live it.

The Amish are repressive and one has to accept that repression to enjoy its benefits. They live in family groups so each community is relatively small and the social structure used is less tyrannical that the methods of a nation like NK, but the dictatorial constraints are similar. If you don't follow the rules, the community will respond harshly. In tribal communities the repression is masked as "traditional ways" that are not open for public scrutiny or viewing. The Amish shun disobedient members as their way to coerce those who stray from the rules. They take away the community and leave the offenders isolated. I see little difference between how the Amish structure their culture to keep it alive and how fundamental Islamists or other similar religious groups do. Punishments differ of course across them, but the goals are usually the same: repress non traditional thinking and changing ways keep the status quo.

I think there is significant ethical distance between shunning and crucifixion.
 
If you live in Texas or Southern California, I guess, but most Western cities achieved their basic geography before private automobile ownership was widespread. They just packed a bunch of suburbs around the outside.

Have you ever been to the states?
 
Plenty of ways to kill yourself in a barn with or without the long gun bird. It's not rocket science and they aren't pants on head @#*!>#]@.
 
"Highways and parking lot" is a better description of the suburban sprawl than of most cities in the US.
 
No. Why?

edit: also i am going to reply to mouthwash at some point but i haven't had the time to sit down and give a proper response.
You seem to know a lot about it for someone who hasn’t been there.
 
Plenty of ways to kill yourself in a barn with or without the long gun bird. It's not rocket science and they aren't pants on head @#*!>#]@.
Of course there are, but hand guns make it easier.
 
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