Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Sounds like the 'easy' (and possibly the appropriate one) would be to increase the costs a bit - but maybe not across the board. I dunno... I don't have time to audit tech costs at the moment.
C2C Balance Thread
- Thread starter ls612
- Start date
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
I just started a new game (SVN 6948) on a standard size map, snail speed, Monarch difficulty. The initial research times are only 2 turns! There is nothing special about my 1st city, it is positioned near a river. Research calculates as follows:
8from the Palace, 3
With 70% research I get 7.7from 11
Nomadic Lifestyle and Language need 15
On the other hand the building time of units and buildings is like it should be IMPO, it takes 7 turns for a Stone Thrower to build (with 4), so slowing down everything is not good, just research seems to be too quick.
Remember the "new" snail is the "old" Epic speed. And 7 turns for a stone thrower?!! No way, that's too slow.
JosEPh
So that supports my concern that research is too fast compared to unit (and building) construction.
I don´t want to have a slower game in general, I just want to have some time to play with my units and buildings before they become obsolete.
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
There are two schools of thought on this apparently. I am with you I expect the buildings and units to be around for long enough to play with them. The other is that you should not have enough time to build all the buildings in all your cities before some of them go obsolete. It is these two opposing views that have gotten us where we are at.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I checked on that since really, Grenadiers shouldn't have any decimal value since they should zero out on their three Size Matters categories - apparently the quality was way too high - typo as it were. They've been reduced down to Superior from Elite now and that change will be soon committed. Please keep pointing out any odd discrepancies like these.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
If you're playing on the Upscaled building and unit cost option I can see this being right. But if not... I agree. Standard tech time shouldn't take, on average, less time than the production of a contemporary unit.
I did not choose the upscaled build times in my example. Should be easy enough to see for everyone who starts a new game.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Wow... yeah. That becomes a major footnote for an overall large scale rebalance effort. Again... let us know how it goes from there with research turn times.
In late Prehistoric I need 5 turns on average to research (currently Elephant Domestication) and 1 turn to build for an Atl-Atl in my best city (2 turns in my 2nd best one). That relation seems to be OK.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
I don't understand why ppl persist with this statement, "I don´t want to have a slower game in general, I just want to have some time to play with my units and buildings before they become obsolete", when it is Blatantly untrue. I play Normal and Epic and I have Plenty of time to play with Every unit/building (if I so desire) the Mod has to offer.
Please ppl play some games on Normal Before you spout this! (Not poking at you Snofru1, but this is repeated waaaay to often and I ascertain is untrue).
JosEPh
So I change my wording to express what I mean: I would like to have more time to create more units and buildings than currently before they are replaced by something more modern. I can´t get this by a slower gamespeed as both building times and research times go up.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
On faster gamespeeds units often don't have time to cross the map to get to their opponents before they're obsolete! This was an experience in Vanilla as much as any here. You know... you set out with an army that can take down a city with Atl-Atls guarding it but by the time you get there they have Archers and your army is up a creek.
timschuett
Chieftain
Is there a civics thread?
I wanna air some unbalance grievances about some of those ( ie. Trade is waaaay overpowered, especially with the proliferation of trade routes from classical and medieval buildings)
Also, it seems like some categories (welfare, agriculture) follow a pretty clear progression, while others are pretty haphazard.
I'm sure this has been brought up, but I can't find the appropriate milieu
I wanna air some unbalance grievances about some of those ( ie. Trade is waaaay overpowered, especially with the proliferation of trade routes from classical and medieval buildings)
Also, it seems like some categories (welfare, agriculture) follow a pretty clear progression, while others are pretty haphazard.
I'm sure this has been brought up, but I can't find the appropriate milieu
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
This is where the Search this forum and advance search are useful. If you put "civics" in the left hand box and selected find in titles you would have found this thread.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Puhlease...Maybe on Blitz. Boy the exaggerations are getting deeper than **** around here. Every gamespeed in C2C is leaps and bounds longer than their corresponding vanilla speed. This is just hype/smoke screen to keep players from playing the faster speeds. And is really a disservice to the Mod in general.
If you are playing on a Giant map and feel the need to invade an empire "across the Map" with atls you deserve what you get. You focus should be on your near rivals not someone you only met thru trading "Contacts" with.
JosEPh
Dancing Hoskuld
Deity
The problem is that slower speeds don't provide what is wanted. All they provide is games where the speed is slower. Research and build times remain the same in relation to each other.
What is wanted is a game where research times are far longer than unit and building build times. Eg the research times of the speed slower than the build times.
What is wanted is a game where research times are far longer than unit and building build times. Eg the research times of the speed slower than the build times.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Jeez man... I'm not dissing you for liking faster games. I just don't feel they're... thorough is all. You hardly get to feel out the era before it's gone. I just prefer a game to last a few months, not a few days or weeks.Puhlease...Maybe on Blitz. Boy the exaggerations are getting deeper than **** around here. Every gamespeed in C2C is leaps and bounds longer than their corresponding vanilla speed. This is just hype/smoke screen to keep players from playing the faster speeds. And is really a disservice to the Mod in general.
If you are playing on a Giant map and feel the need to invade an empire "across the Map" with atls you deserve what you get. You focus should be on your near rivals not someone you only met thru trading "Contacts" with.
JosEPh
It's not like we're conspiring to make people play longer - for me this is MY opinion which considering how loudly you demand the right to have your opinion respected I would appreciate the same due. I don't like techs or even most buildings to complete at a rate of more than one a round and on normal speed I can often clock 2 to 4 techs a round. What's the point? Where's the feeling of achieving something with each tech?
I'd like to fight an empire worth of cities before my units need upgrading, not just a city or two if I'm lucky. I'd rather be able to promote like I expect common combat classes aren't going to change and obsolete my choices for some time to come. In short, I like the flavor of each era like its a game in and of itself and I can feel like I'm IN that era myself rather than just in a race to the next.
But I don't play these games with the destination of the end in mind. I play them to experience them. Like life, it's the journey not the destination. I'm quite happy for them to take a while.
Also, on slower gamespeeds (though this may not mean as much in C2C as it did in vanilla due to some mathematical differences) it feels like your choices matter more and can differentiate yourself from your opponents with more drastic results as more turns compile the difference so if I get an edge I often ride that edge longer. It may indeed make it easier though.
That said, if anyone else prefers a faster game, it's not like it makes a difference to me. I'd say the only reason you could say that every game speed is leaps and bounds longer than vanilla is probably due to the fact that there's a LOT more techs to each era. To me, this doesn't mean we should be screaming through the techs any faster to compensate and I don't think we do. The amount of turns it takes to get a tech doesn't seem all that different. And yes, you do make a point to say that since we have more techs per era that does buy our troops a little more time to maneuver before being obsoleted regardless of speed.
Still, on faster gamespeeds on vanilla I did in fact find I could not build my armies and use them in the same era they were built. This created the bias. It was very irritating.
Even on our multiplayer game... if you our I were to build an army sufficient to challenge the other are you saying that the other wouldn't most likely have the ability to obsolete that army before it reached the opponent? Techs can be achieved so quickly that I can wait till I see you coming before reacting! It's not like we're far from each other either.
To some extent true... but even though it may take longer to train your troops, you do get more rounds for them to move once in play if on a longer gamespeed. The first techs are not taking long enough - 2 rounds is too fast to get a tech on a very slow gamespeed.
JosEPh_II
TBS WarLord
Has nothing to do with "opinion respected" but has everything to do with perpetuating a False notion and then continuing to repeating it.
I'm telling you from many games of Normal and Epic speed that this statement,
that I'm protesting about is False. And I'm stating it is False. Not opinion but statement of fact from multiple experiences and scores of games.
No dissing, just saying No, Stop the continued perpetuation of this falsehood. And every time I see anyone post it I will refute it. As plain as that.
JosEPh
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Meh... just my previous experiences is all. It doesn't ALWAYS happen that way nor am I trying to say it always does. Just irritates me when it does 
