C2C Balance Thread

[rfcfanatic]

Well, I'm only able to compare versions 28 and 34, but I kinda feel that it has become a lot easier to advance in tech in the latter version than it was in the former one. In the former version, I never managed to Horseman-rush an AI by 18000 BC or so, but now, the Croatian capitol Zagreb was to fall by that time.

Not just for a human player it is easier to advance, but also for the AI. It's just Warlord difficulty, but for example, Japan already has all the techs for Stonehenge, so I'm feeling some competition for it. At least 1 of the AI has techs for Horsemen as well.

Here's my little empire not too much later than 16000 BC:



Game settings:



But anyway, this is a great mod! Keep up the good job guys

 

[Redwallzyl]

the stone spearmen from villages plus raging barbarians and great generals equal total domination.

 

[zeinul]

I'm I only one here, who keeps city borders not overlapping?

 

[JosEPh_II]

I'm I only one here, who keeps city borders not overlapping?

Probably, small overlap does not hurt. Sometimes you even get a resource shared by both cities. Ever think of that?

JosEPh

 

[JosEPh_II]

Well, I'm only able to compare versions 28 and 34, but I kinda feel that it has become a lot easier to advance in tech in the latter version than it was in the former one. In the former version, I never managed to Horseman-rush an AI by 18000 BC or so, but now, the Croatian capitol Zagreb was to fall by that time.

Not just for a human player it is easier to advance, but also for the AI. It's just Warlord difficulty, but for example, Japan already has all the techs for Stonehenge, so I'm feeling some competition for it. At least 1 of the AI has techs for Horsemen as well.

Here's my little empire not too much later than 16000 BC:



Game settings:



But anyway, this is a great mod! Keep up the good job guys

2 things that stand out as to why it seems easier, you have the new More Resources, More Rivers Options ON. Think about it.

JosEPh

 

[rfcfanatic]

2 things that stand out as to why it seems easier, you have the new More Resources, More Rivers Options ON. Think about it.

JosEPh

Thanks, JosEPh. I'll try without these options when I start my next game. Also, I'd skip Multiple Production and Multiple Research which enabled me to storm through some cheap stuff pretty rapidly. And Assimilation which allowed me to produce more heroic units than I ever needed.

Btw, this game ended with mid-Renaissance Conquest victory between 4000-3900 BC

 

[JosEPh_II]

<snip> And Assimilation which allowed me to produce more heroic units than I ever needed.

Btw, this game ended with mid-Renaissance Conquest victory between 4000-3900 BC

Another 2 cents:
There was a heroic Promotion bug that made getting Golden Ages Waaaay too easy and they lasted way too long.
2nd cent: Gamespeeds longer that Marathon really, impo, screw with the Dates and Eras. If you had a REN Era Conquest Victory at 3900BC then it's really out of whack. ls612 had these pretty well balanced before he left the Team. But some of the newer Modders have tinkered with things I personally don't think they fully understood the consequences when they did it.

I'm currently playing a Marathon speed and it's not quite lined up right with dates and Eras either, but not as bad as Snail or longer games.

Epic and Normal, while things progress faster, seem to be more balanced in overall game play imho and from extensive play time on those game speeds.

JosEPh

 

[Northstar1989]

Another 2 cents:
There was a heroic Promotion bug that made getting Golden Ages Waaaay too easy and they lasted way too long.
2nd cent: Gamespeeds longer that Marathon really, impo, screw with the Dates and Eras. If you had a REN Era Conquest Victory at 3900BC then it's really out of whack. ls612 had these pretty well balanced before he left the Team. But some of the newer Modders have tinkered with things I personally don't think they fully understood the consequences when they did it.

I'm currently playing a Marathon speed and it's not quite lined up right with dates and Eras either, but not as bad as Snail or longer games.

Epic and Normal, while things progress faster, seem to be more balanced in overall game play imho and from extensive play time on those game speeds.

JosEPh

The solution is not, and never was, to "nerf" existing features which provide resources, technology, etc.

The solution is to increase the cost of technologies to slow progress. In real life, most technologies (though invented multiple times) only caught on once, and then were spread through trade and conquest to the rest of the world. This is a *BIG* part of the reason Native American civilizations were so far behind their Eurasian counterparts in real-life (fewer trading partners and a North-South trade axis and geographic barriers between North America and South America which made technology flow more difficult; though Eurasians also had a big head-start on settling down...) Read "Guns, Germs, and Steel" if you don't believe me.

If you want realism, tech costs should be so prohibitive as to FORCE you to Tech-Trade and Tech-Broker if you want to come anywhere close to keeping up with history...


Regards,
Northstar

 

[Thunderbrd]

The solution is not, and never was, to "nerf" existing features which provide resources, technology, etc.

The solution is to increase the cost of technologies to slow progress. In real life, most technologies (though invented multiple times) only caught on once, and then were spread through trade and conquest to the rest of the world. This is a *BIG* part of the reason Native American civilizations were so far behind their Eurasian counterparts in real-life (fewer trading partners and a North-South trade axis and geographic barriers between North America and South America which made technology flow more difficult; though Eurasians also had a big head-start on settling down...) Read "Guns, Germs, and Steel" if you don't believe me.

If you want realism, tech costs should be so prohibitive as to FORCE you to Tech-Trade and Tech-Broker if you want to come anywhere close to keeping up with history...


Regards,
Northstar

You make a very good point. This is why I don't play with tech trading at all. If techs were about 10 times the cost they are now it might make more sense for this option to be on.

 

[JosEPh_II]

The solution is not, and never was, to "nerf" existing features which provide resources, technology, etc.

The solution is to increase the cost of technologies to slow progress. In real life, most technologies (though invented multiple times) only caught on once, and then were spread through trade and conquest to the rest of the world. This is a *BIG* part of the reason Native American civilizations were so far behind their Eurasian counterparts in real-life (fewer trading partners and a North-South trade axis and geographic barriers between North America and South America which made technology flow more difficult; though Eurasians also had a big head-start on settling down...) Read "Guns, Germs, and Steel" if you don't believe me.

If you want realism, tech costs should be so prohibitive as to FORCE you to Tech-Trade and Tech-Broker if you want to come anywhere close to keeping up with history...


Regards,
Northstar

Not sure I understand where you are coming from in response to my post?

C2C is Not about realism. Was supposed to be back in the early versions but that has Looong since been dropped.

In this Mod you Can Not make Tech cost prohibitive. There are over 700+ techs now and still growing. What? You implying that Normal and Epic gamespeeds be removed? BS on that! (Those 2 gamespeeds are probably the most balanced in this whole line of extended gamespeed options.) With a 2000 turn gamespeed and a 700+ tech tree you can Not have tech that takes 10 turns to research and That is what increasing the Tech cost will do.

If you play eternity then screw with it all you want. A 14,000 turn gamespeed is quite frankly ridiculous and would be extremely hard to balance.

@T-Brd,
Please be careful about changing Options just because you don't use them. Other players do.

JosEPh

 

[timschuett]

Off topic, But I just want to say thanks for the hard work on balancing the AI. My most recent game I was harrassing my closest opponent with my camo units (mostly assassins) and farming a recent GC I had obtained as a result of a vassal joining my empire. After capturing several military captives, the AI player Declared war and launched a surprisingly competent naval invasion of my continent. I had previously been at a friendly relation status with him (Songsten Gampo of Tibet, not terribly aggressive) and no other players had declared war. But its exactly what I would have done to another human player.

Not a glitch, not an issue. Damn fine AI programming, thats all.

By V38, you will likely have achieved skynet status.

Kudos and keep up the awesome mod. Wish I had the time and skill to contribute.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Not sure I understand where you are coming from in response to my post?

C2C is Not about realism. Was supposed to be back in the early versions but that has Looong since been dropped.

In this Mod you Can Not make Tech cost prohibitive. There are over 700+ techs now and still growing. What? You implying that Normal and Epic gamespeeds be removed? BS on that! (Those 2 gamespeeds are probably the most balanced in this whole line of extended gamespeed options.) With a 2000 turn gamespeed and a 700+ tech tree you can Not have tech that takes 10 turns to research and That is what increasing the Tech cost will do.

If you play eternity then screw with it all you want. A 14,000 turn gamespeed is quite frankly ridiculous and would be extremely hard to balance.

@T-Brd,
Please be careful about changing Options just because you don't use them. Other players do.

JosEPh

Wasn't considering changing the option. Was just saying I feel we burn through the techs too fast to make the option valid is all.

 

[Northstar1989]

Not sure I understand where you are coming from in response to my post?

C2C is Not about realism. Was supposed to be back in the early versions but that has Looong since been dropped.

In this Mod you Can Not make Tech cost prohibitive. There are over 700+ techs now and still growing. What? You implying that Normal and Epic gamespeeds be removed? BS on that! (Those 2 gamespeeds are probably the most balanced in this whole line of extended gamespeed options.) With a 2000 turn gamespeed and a 700+ tech tree you can Not have tech that takes 10 turns to research and That is what increasing the Tech cost will do.

If you play eternity then screw with it all you want. A 14,000 turn gamespeed is quite frankly ridiculous and would be extremely hard to balance.

JosEPh

You're missing my point entirely. I'm not *suggesting* it take 10 turns to GET a tech on average- I'm suggesting it take 10 (or 20, or 30) turns to RESEARCH a tech. This will FORCE you to TRADE for technologies rather than just research them yourself. You won't have to wait 10 or 20 or 30 turns for a tech, on average, because you won't be researching the majority of techs yourself. You'll be trading for them.

Let's say the average tech now took 10 turns to research. But you traded for 80% of your technologies. That would mean that 10/5 = 2 ---> it would only take an average of 2 turns to GET a tech if you traded for them like you should then be doing.

Most players currently don't trade for techs because either (a) it screws with the timeline even more so, as tech costs are currently too low or (b) they're so far ahead of the AI anyways that the AI's have nothing useful to offer them.

If tech costs were prohibitively expensive, (a) would cease to be an issue, as it would in fact be necessary to *keep up with* history. And (b) would be a lot less likely, as most players would then favor production and growth over science even more if the science points had a very slow Return on Investment due to prohibitive tech costs...

And even if you did manage to get ahead of the AI (as is likely), prohibitive tech costs would prevent you leaping so far ahead as for them to have no useful techs to trade you (and the further you got ahead, the more your progress would slow down as you ceased to be able to trade for techs).

Of course, conquering a HUGE empire would always be a way to overcome prohibitive tech costs- through shear force of will (assuming it didn't break your economy). Like in real life, more people means more minds to come up with new ideas...


Regards,
Northstar

 

[Sparth]

Trading techs is unrealistics
Lets take Aecius and Attilla the Hun. They meet on neutral ground and Aecius trade Padded Roads for Stirups from Atilla the Hun? Nope

I like tech transfer system from Realism Invictus mod. Its really make sens and its realistic.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I like tech transfer system from Realism Invictus mod. Its really make sens and its realistic.

Which is?

 

[Harrier]

Trading techs is unrealistics
I like tech transfer system from Realism Invictus mod. Its really make sens and its realistic.

In reality the only real Tech Trading occurred during WW2, when the UK gave their Nuclear information to the USA in exchange for obsolete warships (desparate times!).

In RI. there is no tech selling/brokering (unless you turn it on - which ruins the point of this part of the game).

Instead, when you sign an open borders agreement - you get Tech transfer. If you are researching a Tech the other civ already has, you get an initial 50% discount on the amount of research needed to complete it. This is a two way thing, so techs you have that they don't, gives them a 50% research discount. You now have to be careful who you sign open borders with. If you are ahead in techs with a civ you later want to attack, do not sign open borders.

you get an initial 50% discount

For every other civ that you have an open borders with you get an additional 25% research discount.

It is a good system and I like it, because it feels more realistic. If you adopt it, you are of cause free to choose the transfer percentages you want too.

Think about it, in history, tech knowledge came from assimulation as well as original thought. Not from buying from one civ and then reselling (brokering) to other civs.

If you had knowledge of armour crafting would you sell it to another civ, of course not. But some of that knowledge would be learnt, from people who travelled through your lands. (open borders).

They meet on neutral ground and Aecius trade Padded Roads for Stirups from Atilla the Hun?

Do Aecius's troops not wear shoes?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Yes, just look at the Nok, they got the technology for iron working through trade they went from stone tools to iron tools and weapons. They never bothered learning about copper. They did have some great stuff to trade mind you.

 

[Northstar1989]

In reality the only real Tech Trading occurred during WW2, when the UK gave their Nuclear information to the USA in exchange for obsolete warships (desparate times!).

In RI. there is no tech selling/brokering (unless you turn it on - which ruins the point of this part of the game).

Instead, when you sign an open borders agreement - you get Tech transfer. If you are researching a Tech the other civ already has, you get an initial 50% discount on the amount of research needed to complete it. This is a two way thing, so techs you have that they don't, gives them a 50% research discount. You now have to be careful who you sign open borders with. If you are ahead in techs with a civ you later want to attack, do not sign open borders.



For every other civ that you have an open borders with you get an additional 25% research discount.

It is a good system and I like it, because it feels more realistic. If you adopt it, you are of cause free to choose the transfer percentages you want too.

Think about it, in history, tech knowledge came from assimulation as well as original thought. Not from buying from one civ and then reselling (brokering) to other civs.

If you had knowledge of armour crafting would you sell it to another civ, of course not. But some of that knowledge would be learnt, from people who travelled through your lands. (open borders).



Do Aecius's troops not wear shoes?

You're missing my point. Yes, the tech trade system is very much a stand-in for the real-life process of technological diffusion (as represented in RI mod- that seems a much better system), though occasionally, formal technological transfer *DID* occur (within the lines of- "I'll send you some of my best craftsmen if you do this for me". The craftsmen, of course, sometimes held a lot of technological secrets that they would teach to their new ruler's subjects, willingly or forced...), but it's still a lot more realistic than having each technology discovered many repeated times by different civilizations.

Another problem with your way of thinking about it is that you're really recoiling from the unrealism of the ancients having distinct ideas of "Technologies", rather than the realism of intentional transfer of knowledge. One nation might not have *thought of it* as technology transfer when they gifted skilled craftsmen or philosophers or priests to each other (this sort or horse-trading of retinue did IN FACT often occur between rulers- particularly in the Near/Middle East, which is just one reason for the region's more rapid advancement early in history. There are actually recorded examples of it in the Old Testament, for instance- and it probably long predated writing), but this is in fact what they were doing when they exchanged talented and knowledgeable individuals like this...


Regards,
Northstar

 

[Harrier]

You're missing my point.

One nation might not have *thought of it* as technology transfer when they gifted skilled craftsmen or philosophers or priests to each other (this sort or horse-trading of retinue did IN FACT often occur between rulers- particularly in the Near/Middle East, which is just one reason for the region's more rapid advancement early in history. There are actually recorded examples of it in the Old Testament, for instance- and it probably long predated writing), but this is in fact what they were doing when they exchanged talented and knowledgeable individuals like this.

Regards,
Northstar

My post might not be all that correct, but I think we agree on the basics. I think the tech diffusion from R.I. mirrors what you are saying above. Because of open borders ,the craftsmen etc.go to work in another country. And that means they impart new knowledge to that nation.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Honestly both suggestions sound great! If we gave an option where the tech costs were a LOT higher (like around x10 though perhaps not as severe for pre-writing techs), open borders and it's lesser cousin take on a role in making for large tech progress % modifiers, tech trade was opened up, we already have tech diffusion playing a role, and if you just weren't friendly you could make up for it all with our current conquest tech earnings, then we could have a rather uniquely realistic system overall. But we'd HAVE to have a HUGELY increased tech cost to make it possible.

It would certainly enforce that you either played a diplomatic/trade game or were very aggressive to keep up. This would almost force you out of the diplomatic isolation that is so convenient for the Player at the moment.