C2C - Buildings Discussion

[EldrinFal]

No to the change to flat rate to the Druid, Shaman and Ngai food bonuses. They have already been greatly reduced by requiring the bonus in the vicinity of the city and the percent halved.

The problem here is that I have not made those buildings go obsolete yet. Of the three only the Druid missionary buildings go obsolete until recently. I put something in for shaman last week.

The missionary buildings go obsolete at Engineering and Invention. The temple extensions need to go obsolete a bit later say at Physics.

IMO we should get rid of the Great Farmer or at least make it only able to place one of each type. It is too OP.

Then perhaps the State Religion requirement is the better choice if you don't want to lower the %. The reason I don't favor obsoleting those religious buildings is because in a nation that is very religious, those sorts of structures would retain importance, be maintained, and used.

You could be right about the Great Farmer. Especially where 1 resource grants a bonus from 5+ buildings, wonders, corporations, etc. The output is going to be
tremendous. A Great Geologist, which was mentioned before, would be even worse IMHO. Maybe the Great Farmer can be like a Team Project along the lines of the Spaceship, where you can make say 5 in the entire span of your empire and that's it?

 

[CiverDan]

I agree the Great farmer is too OP on small maps. While we are on food buildings, Why were the Farmscrapers changed to +200 each? I know we are talking about future tech, but this just too much food IMHO. What it was before was reasonable. If you want a building with that much food, save it for something more advanced like a Food Sythesizer. I know late game still has to be hashed out, but saw this and felt it was out of wack.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Then perhaps the State Religion requirement is the better choice if you don't want to lower the %. The reason I don't favor obsoleting those religious buildings is because in a nation that is very religious, those sorts of structures would retain importance, be maintained, and used.

You could be right about the Great Farmer. Especially where 1 resource grants a bonus from 5+ buildings, wonders, corporations, etc. The output is going to be
tremendous. A Great Geologist, which was mentioned before, would be even worse IMHO. Maybe the Great Farmer can be like a Team Project along the lines of the Spaceship, where you can make say 5 in the entire span of your empire and that's it?

The early religions should morph, the others do. Anyway the extra addons to the temple and monastery buildings are about "special knowledge" which does become general knowledge and tradition as times goes by. As has been pointed out the monasteries of the other religions do go obsolete. Their main function, the building of missionaries, does not obsolete but you can't build any others.

So I will adjust my plans, the vicinity bonus addons for monastery buildings for the three early religions will start going out of use around Engineering depending on the resource. The monasteries will go obsolete at the same time as the other religions. The temple vicinity addons will start going obsolete around Physics but the temples will not go obsolete.

The_J has a wonder that gives you two units that can build one special farm (GM modified crop) each and that is it. Maybe that is the way to go. Have a national wonder that can only be built if you don't have a plant/animal resource within your cultural boundaries but do have the resource from trade. Gives you two special farmers that can place that resource once.

 

[Hydromancerx]

I agree the Great farmer is too OP on small maps. While we are on food buildings, Why were the Farmscrapers changed to +200 each? I know we are talking about future tech, but this just too much food IMHO. What it was before was reasonable. If you want a building with that much food, save it for something more advanced like a Food Sythesizer. I know late game still has to be hashed out, but saw this and felt it was out of wack.

Its because all the other farm buildings go obsolete at Vertical Farming, which means you will have a huge drop in food. I had to compensate if you used the Great farmer to make all you city plots into resources. There are around 20 plots you can get round your fat cross. And around 20 crop resources. Then if you made all the bonus buildings and then all 20 combo buildings (ex Lemons + Corn = Avocados). Thus I did 20x20 which came out to 400 then divide that in half, which comes out 200 maximum food your city could generate just from crops buildings.

Thus you would be very pissed off if you did all that work and then it disappeared at Vertical Farming. So that's why the first one replaces the max possible and then the other layers on top act as if you had even more fat crosses in the vertical plane. Just pretend that the vertical farms have every possible crop in them.

I hope this explains my reasoning.

 

[EldrinFal]

The_J has a wonder that gives you two units that can build one special farm (GM modified crop) each and that is it. Maybe that is the way to go. Have a national wonder that can only be built if you don't have a plant/animal resource within your cultural boundaries but do have the resource from trade. Gives you two special farmers that can place that resource once.

If the code is already made, let's give it a shot.

(Though someone may still place them all in a single city's radius)

 

[ThoricFrame]

Hello again, just giving an update about my crazy city.

Size 141, lots of food but 30 net .
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=301555&d=1315734645

Size 144, more food and 0 net .
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=301630&d=1315847954

Size 170, a ton more food and health. I'm going to keep playing and see how far this goes. Just for fun though! I'm going to hold off on updating this save for a while

 

[EldrinFal]

Hello again, just giving an update about my crazy city.

Size 141, lots of food but 30 net .
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=301555&d=1315734645

Size 144, more food and 0 net .
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=301630&d=1315847954

Size 170, a ton more food and health. I'm going to keep playing and see how far this goes. Just for fun though! I'm going to hold off on updating this save for a while

Well your food from tiles surpassed your trade food this time around, but WOW your resource bonus is now over 100% !!! What brought it up that additional 20% since last time?

 

[Koshling]

Hello again, just giving an update about my crazy city.

Size 141, lots of food but 30 net .
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=301555&d=1315734645

Size 144, more food and 0 net .
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=301630&d=1315847954

Size 170, a ton more food and health. I'm going to keep playing and see how far this goes. Just for fun though! I'm going to hold off on updating this save for a while

Can you break down where all the health is coming from also please

 

[ThoricFrame]

Well your food from tiles surpassed your trade food this time around, but WOW your resource bonus is now over 100% !!! What brought it up that additional 20% since last time?

The rice bonus finished placing so that's another +5% from druidism, I acquired a source of potatoes so another +6% from cereal mills, and I have east west traders corporation whose building provides a food bonus, +3% each from coffee, cotton, spices, silk (but i lack sugar). so 5 + 6 + 12 = 23

There are no sheep on the map, I don't have whales or sugar. If I had those that would be another 11% from corps... Ah well.

Can you break down where all the health is coming from also please

+33 from bonuses, most foods are giving me 2 healthy each, and salt is giving me 3.
+6 from civics...
+200 from buildings!
Lets look into that in more detail...
Hospital: +36 (0.2 per citizen, 170 citizens so +34) adds healthy to lead and obsidian (in bonuses section) and another 2 from socialised civic.
Sewer system: +25 (0.15 per citizen)
Aqueduct: +25 (0.15 per citizen)
Valley of kings +5 (forgot about this)
Plus all of the housing! There are a bunch of other small bonuses but those are the main ones...

Basically the Aqueduct, sewer system and hospital combine to mean each citizen produces 0.5 net


Save included...

 

[Koshling]

The rice bonus finished placing so that's another +5% from druidism, I acquired a source of potatoes so another +6% from cereal mills, and I have east west traders corporation whose building provides a food bonus, +3% each from coffee, cotton, spices, silk (but i lack sugar). so 5 + 6 + 12 = 23

There are no sheep on the map, I don't have whales or sugar. If I had those that would be another 11% from corps... Ah well.


+33 from bonuses, most foods are giving me 2 healthy each, and salt is giving me 3.
+6 from civics...
+200 from buildings!
Lets look into that in more detail...
Hospital: +36 (0.2 per citizen, 170 citizens so +34) adds healthy to lead and obsidian (in bonuses section) and another 2 from socialised civic.
Sewer system: +25 (0.15 per citizen)
Aqueduct: +25 (0.15 per citizen)
Valley of kings +5 (forgot about this)
Plus all of the housing! There are a bunch of other small bonuses but those are the main ones...

Basically the Aqueduct, sewer system and hospital combine to mean each citizen produces 0.5 net


Save included...

Yeh, I think we need to rethink the x per population bonuses on buildings. I would suggest (needs an easy new XML tag, but only a hour or twos work) that such bonuses also be given a configurable cap. So for example aqueduct could be 0.15 per population up to a maximum of 10, hospital 0.2 per population up to a max of 20, and so on.

 

[EldrinFal]

The rice bonus finished placing so that's another +5% from druidism, I acquired a source of potatoes so another +6% from cereal mills, and I have east west traders corporation whose building provides a food bonus, +3% each from coffee, cotton, spices, silk (but i lack sugar). so 5 + 6 + 12 = 23

So why do those goods provide a bonus? Granted, coffee and spices are consumed, but they don't exactly provide a whole lot of sustenance. And cotton and silk?? Gold or commerce seem a more accurate bonus... ah well.

Yeh, I think we need to rethink the x per population bonuses on buildings. I would suggest (needs an easy new XML tag, but only a hour or twos work) that such bonuses also be given a configurable cap. So for example aqueduct could be 0.15 per population up to a maximum of 10, hospital 0.2 per population up to a max of 20, and so on.

That sounds good to me. Could the same tag also be used to cap food bonuses in a similar way?

 

[Hydromancerx]

@ThoricFrame
You also forgetting all the unhealthy buildings you can build. For instance if you want a forge or tannery you will get unhealthiness. There are a lot more unhealthy buildings than healthy ones.

 

[Koshling]

@ThoricFrame
You also forgetting all the unhealthy buildings you can build. For instance if you want a forge or tannery you will get unhealthiness. There are a lot more unhealthy buildings than healthy ones.

Yes, but the unhealthy buildings give a fixed amount, whereas I was proposing to cap the health only on the ones that give health per population. If there are any unhealthy per population then I would suggest we do the same with that (but there aren't any are there?)

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Yes, but the unhealthy buildings give a fixed amount, whereas I was proposing to cap the health only on the ones that give health per population. If there are any unhealthy per population then I would suggest we do the same with that (but there aren't any are there?)

Unhealthy per population - this may be what I need for the disease mod - which is still stuck.

 

[ThoricFrame]

Hospital: +36 (0.2 per citizen, 170 citizens) extra +2
Sewer system: +25 (0.15 per citizen)
Aqueduct: +25 (0.15 per citizen)

Whoops, knew I was forgetting something!
Public Transportation +17 (+0.1 per citizen)

So as the city grows each new citizen will add 0.6 healthy and 1 yuck.
36 surplus healthy / 0.4 = 90, so if nothing else changes the city will grow to size 260 and have healthy and unhealthy balanced. And yes it has more than enough food to do it!

@Hydromancerx
I'm not forgetting the unhealthy buildings, they just don't matter

 

[EldrinFal]

Hello again, just giving an update about my crazy city.

Size 141, lots of food but 30 net .
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=301555&d=1315734645

Size 144, more food and 0 net .
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=301630&d=1315847954

Size 170, a ton more food and health. I'm going to keep playing and see how far this goes. Just for fun though! I'm going to hold off on updating this save for a while

I just got around to loading your save on a version that would play it (mine before wouldn't load it) and I counted the food in all the worked tiles. I only came up with a total of 105, but the screen reports 130 from worked tiles. Is there a modifier that adds into that total silently?

 

[ThoricFrame]

I just counted from my playing a bit beyond the most recent save, 149 from tiles says the city screen, and I counted 149.

 

[EldrinFal]

This is the save I used. Counted twice in that city I posted the screenshot for. Not sure if it's a temporary fluke or what.

Speaking of food, started a new game with v17 about an hour ago. Snail speed. Holy cow I need a ton of food just to reach size 2 !! Says like 256 turns. Was only like +3 net though. Unfortunately I didn't get to play long to test further before a Barb unit came and sacked my city. I was playing with Raging Barbs.

 

[Koshling]

This is the save I used. Counted twice in that city I posted the screenshot for. Not sure if it's a temporary fluke or what.

Speaking of food, started a new game with v17 about an hour ago. Snail speed. Holy cow I need a ton of food just to reach size 2 !! Says like 256 turns. Was only like +3 net though. Unfortunately I didn't get to play long to test further before a Barb unit came and sacked my city. I was playing with Raging Barbs.

Yeh, now it actually calculates correctly it'll be really slow at the beginning since several of the initial civics give you significant modifiers to the required food to grow threshold. I don't really see this as a bad thing though - much more realistic.

 

[Koshling]

Unhealthy per population - this may be what I need for the disease mod - which is still stuck.

Does that need a new tag or can you just use a negative value in the health per pop tag?