C2C - Civics Discussion Thread

I thought where it appeared in the list depended on the tech that it requires. The tech that gives Banditry comes long before Tribalism so it should remain where it is on the list.
 
I thought where it appeared in the list depended on the tech that it requires. The tech that gives Banditry comes long before Tribalism so it should remain where it is on the list.
Welllll. we could move "thief" to just above Tribalism (see pic) because it is more or less a standalone tech i believe? Also we could move Tribal Warfare to Warfare . Again just throwing stuff out, trying to make things better . . .
 
Welllll. we could move "thief" to just above Tribalism (see pic) because it is more or less a standalone tech i believe? Also we could move Tribal Warfare to Warfare . Again just throwing stuff out, trying to make things better . . .
Nope. Move the thief unit and you'll destroy a lot of balance work done there.
 
OK i changed Banditry and Tribal Warfare around, does this look better or what else would u need to move from Banditry to Tribal Warfare??
 

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Not sure why tribal war would need an additional trade route but with or without it, it's a strong improvement over bandit, except that banditry has the thief and rogue so it makes it hard to want to change. I like that it creates a tough choice.
 
Not sure why tribal war would need an additional trade route but with or without it, it's a strong improvement over bandit, except that banditry has the thief and rogue so it makes it hard to want to change. I like that it creates a tough choice.
Thats what Joe said , it needed "something" to make people go from Banditry to Tribal W. So thats why i am trying to make it worth it, i did change a few other items, i believe in TW also, but i forgot what, lol
 
We made you take out the trade route stuff from Banditry but did not say what to do about the Trade Route in Tribal Warfare. IMO I don't think trade routes should be in most of the civics we have them in, I feel we have far too many.
 
We made you take out the trade route stuff from Banditry but did not say what to do about the Trade Route in Tribal Warfare. IMO I don't think trade routes should be in most of the civics we have them in, I feel we have far too many.
Exactly, it's easy to overload when it gets habitually used as a value filler. I'm needing to keep some room for it to be valuable for players to get trade routes from their traits as well.
 
While the addition of 1 Trade Route to TW is appealing, it may not be necessary.

Things I see per choice that could still be changed:

Banditry- the 20% Gold in Capital is too rich. Is the leader of his empire actively steal from his ppl? Even if he is, 10% is, impo, better, still makes Banditry very strong to resist. If removed completely then Gold/turn in that timeframe of Preh Era will be more stringent for overall Gold/turn. Ppl complain about too much Gold, this could slow that down or out right stop it. And as the Eras go by that 20% in Capital gets bigger and bigger in it's impact. Gotta reduce that.

Tribal Warfare- the 2% Gold Capital is nice but what warrants it? But the 2% Culture needs to be upped to at least 5% or even to 10%.

That's how I see it.

JosEPh
 
While the addition of 1 Trade Route to TW is appealing, it may not be necessary.

Things I see per choice that could still be changed:

Banditry- the 20% Gold in Capital is too rich. Is the leader of his empire actively steal from his ppl? Even if he is, 10% is, impo, better, still makes Banditry very strong to resist. If removed completely then Gold/turn in that timeframe of Preh Era will be more stringent for overall Gold/turn. Ppl complain about too much Gold, this could slow that down or out right stop it. And as the Eras go by that 20% in Capital gets bigger and bigger in it's impact. Gotta reduce that.

Tribal Warfare- the 2% Gold Capital is nice but what warrants it? But the 2% Culture needs to be upped to at least 5% or even to 10%.

That's how I see it.

JosEPh
Good feedback Joe!

Keep in mind that the gold glut that people are talking about is mostly after Ancient I believe, but if we can be more controlling leading up to that point, then we have more room to enable modifiers that don't force us to continue to grow on top of unnecessary earlier ones just to make the more advanced civic more desirable. So I do agree. Where such a modifier is unnecessary or unwarranted, it's just fine to let it go without.
 
While the addition of 1 Trade Route to TW is appealing, it may not be necessary.

Things I see per choice that could still be changed:

Banditry- the 20% Gold in Capital is too rich. Is the leader of his empire actively steal from his ppl? Even if he is, 10% is, impo, better, still makes Banditry very strong to resist. If removed completely then Gold/turn in that timeframe of Preh Era will be more stringent for overall Gold/turn. Ppl complain about too much Gold, this could slow that down or out right stop it. And as the Eras go by that 20% in Capital gets bigger and bigger in it's impact. Gotta reduce that.

Tribal Warfare- the 2% Gold Capital is nice but what warrants it? But the 2% Culture needs to be upped to at least 5% or even to 10%.

That's how I see it.

JosEPh
trouble is lately when i play, without the gold in Banditry and me having ONLY 1 city, i would go bankrupt, and very fast . .

OK am trying NO trade routes at all, upped the culture to 10%, will try it out . . .
 
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Yes it is very easy to go bankrupt up until the Mining tech so care with adjusting anything that makes money needs to be taken.

Can returns from Civic be adjusted by technology? eg Banditry gets 20% until Mining then only gets 10% or something similar.
 
Some of the other early civics that have High Num City and High Dist. to Palace penalties can be lowered to offset.

JosEPh
 
Some of the other early civics that have High Num City and High Dist. to Palace penalties can be lowered to offset.

JosEPh
Since the problem occurs before you can have your second city lowering the penalty will just make them better in later eras not the early one. I would leave those penalties as they are unless there is nothing else that can be done.
 
Some of the other early civics that have High Num City and High Dist. to Palace penalties can be lowered to offset.

JosEPh
I have deleted all the others besides these three??
 

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From what i am experiencing, if i take away even a little bit of the gold from Banditry, since it is a really early Civic, it will destroy almost all games to bankruptcy . . see attached, i only have 1 city and cant do anything but build .. .i only have the tribal guardian and 1 healer . . and 4 trackers and 2 thief's .. .

Do u\ll want me to update the SVN with some of the changes i have made yet??

Also @TB, u said u upped the attack ratio of some of the animals, can u up them even more, they still dont attack . .
 

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@SO,
What Difficulty level are you using for your Tests? Should be on Noble for this.
What Leaders/Traits are you testing with? Perhaps the Test should be done 1st with No traits?

If the Gold on Banditry is reduced then the change should go to another category of civic to keep the early balance so bankruptcy is not overwhelming. But again this should be tested on Noble 1st.

Also there are Global defines that have set values for NumCity and Dist to Pal Modifiers. These can also should be evaluated, and/or reduced.

@All Team members,
General Note: many of the Early Civics have Inflation values. Some of these should not be on the earliest civics. The Global Modifier for Inflation and When it comes into Effect (Inflation Offset) is In the Game Speed file.

The List of Inflation Offset in # of turns per GS is:
Normal - 75 turns
Epic - 125 turns
Marathon - 150 turns
Snail - 250 turns
Eon - 350
Eternity - 400

So any Early Civic that has inflation attached and is active in these timeframes (# of turns from game start) are not functioning. They are actually Turned Off until the Offset is reached in # of Turns/per GS chosen.

Most of these GS # of turns for Inflation to come On corresponds roughly to the period in Preh Era from Tribal Warfare to Chiefdom to Megalith Building depending upon the research path you are taking to get to Sed Life. And indirectly by the Difficulty level chosen. I wanted to make them all hit Tribalism but that was too narrow a range given the wide variety approaches of getting to Tribalism by Diff, GS, Leader traits, early Cave Wonders/WWs, and Options selected at game start and selected in BUG.

JosEPh
 
@SO,
What Difficulty level are you using for your Tests? Should be on Noble for this.
What Leaders/Traits are you testing with? Perhaps the Test should be done 1st with No traits?

If the Gold on Banditry is reduced then the change should go to another category of civic to keep the early balance so bankruptcy is not overwhelming. But again this should be tested on Noble 1st.

JosEPh
I am currently playing on Snail, because DH and TB always insist that is what we should be setting things at, i normally dont like snail, too long for me, I start out on Noble, but am also playing with Flexible Diff on set to no max. Leader Atol. of the Aztecs And i could be persuaded to change from 20% gold from Banditry to Tribal Warfare, if everyone agrees. .Also dont understand:crazyeye: what u said after this:,, Also there are Global defines

EDIT: OK, the pics above was wrong, because the Flex Diff was at Emperor and not Noble, my bad, it changed and i didnt have notice on it, sorry, so now its on Noble Diff and i have the slider set to 50-60% and i have around 20 gold p/t . .
 

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Also @TB, u said u upped the attack ratio of some of the animals, can u up them even more, they still dont attack . .
There are 2 other factors. One is the Aggressive Animals option. If that is on, they should be pretty much attacking at absolute random IF they CAN attack. Many, if not most, animals, have been made incapable of attacking. That list could maybe use some review, as could the spawns... I am SO sick of this glut of eagles! I'll try to get a quick review of both in. And I'll review the AI deeper in the attack and patrol commands it uses because I find that animals seem to always know you're there, even if they can't see you, and that is entirely not how I want this working.
 
There are 2 other factors. One is the Aggressive Animals option. If that is on, they should be pretty much attacking at absolute random IF they CAN attack. Many, if not most, animals, have been made incapable of attacking. That list could maybe use some review, as could the spawns... I am SO sick of this glut of eagles! I'll try to get a quick review of both in. And I'll review the AI deeper in the attack and patrol commands it uses because I find that animals seem to always know you're there, even if they can't see you, and that is entirely not how I want this working.
Ohhhh definitely on the eagles, and some of the dog units also, way too many . .
 
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