C2C - Civics Discussion Thread

[ls612]

What would the numbers look like on your chart?

Also Theocracy definitely needs a limit. And Republic is highly recommended to have one so people don't all chnage to it just because its the only early civic that has no limit. Not to mention we already went over why historically it would not make much sense either when compared to the other early civics.

I think that City Limits artifically gimp Theocracy too much. The largest empire in the world for 500 years (~700-1200AD)was the Muslim Caliphate, a theocracy, so it doesn't even make sense looking at history.

Also, I looked at this and there is already code there to scale city limits by map size! It is just under a conditional compile that is currently turned off, but I can turn it on very easily.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Hydro,
Why do you fear players all changing to Republic if it had no limit on it? That very statement tells volumes on how arbitrary and artificial City Limits are.

Do you really think it's going to break the game? Give an unfair advantage?

The Real question is with the limits removed from Republic how many AI will change to it?

JosEPh

1. I would say that layers would slant to that since opening up more or even unlimited cities is one of the perks of that civic.

2. For over expansion yes. Especially when it comes to PC vs AI. Many times the PC will get to places before the AI and thus the PC will get to expand before the AI has a chance to build its own empire. Case in point is the 1 city syndrome I see where for whatever reason the AI is trapped or blocked in by the PC or other civs and cannot expand. I suspect this may be an issue of smaller maps but I could see it on larger maps if the top empires expand too fast, too early.

3. That I don't know. It think it depends upon the individual AI's favorite civics too. Thus an AI with the favorite civic of Monarchy might not switch over it it had the chance. I don't know enough about the AI to say.

Why does it have to be the same or greater? Are you saying that any player would always want the limit to rise for the situation she'd find herself in at that point in the game?

Because I don't think a Monarchy would be bigger than a Republic.

And a Theocracy would be about the same or bigger and a Monarchy.

Also, I looked at this and there is already code there to scale city limits by map size! It is just under a conditional compile that is currently turned off, but I can turn it on very easily.

What do the numbers come out to then?

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Because I don't think a Monarchy would be bigger than a Republic.

And a Theocracy would be about the same or bigger and a Monarchy.

The largest empires in history have been Alexander's Macedonia (a Monarchy, but it collapsed immediately after him), Rome (which was initially a Republic but reached its greatest expanse as what we're classing as a Monarchy), China (a Monarchy), Byzantium (a Monarchy), the Caliphate (a Theocracy, but it became the Ottoman Empire which was a Monarchy), the Mongol Empire (a Monarchy), the Russian Empire (a Monarchy), and the British Empire (a Monarchy).

Pre-Representative Democracy (which seems to correspond to the American Revolution), the largest Republics were Rome (which became a Monarchy) and the Netherlands. The only other ones were city states.

Koshling and karadoc swapped a lot of AI work. There is K-mod AI work in this mod (and there is some C2C in K-mod)

Do you use just (only) the Conquest Victory condition to make that statement about the AI?

Or do you use the "Mastery " Victory condition ( ) ?

That is an interesting point. I've been playing with Mastery on, but now that you bring it up I'll try turning it off and see if the AI pursues a more coherent strategy.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@MoogleEmpMog

So if Monarchy allowed for more cities than a Republic do you think people would change over to a Republic? Or no because you get more cities as a Monarchy? In short why should I chnage to Republic if Monarchy has so much going for it plus the fact it has more cities?

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

@MoogleEmpMog

So if Monarchy allowed for more cities than a Republic do you think people would change over to a Republic? Or no because you get more cities as a Monarchy? In short why should I chnage to Republic if Monarchy has so much going for it plus the fact it has more cities?

Well, does it have that much going for it?

Any time I'm not near the city cap or playing with City Limits off, I switch to Republic for Great People spam and the amazing Agora building, which is one of the best in the game between the era when the Stone Tool Maker is king and the late Renaissance. It's possible I overestimate the value of those bonuses but they are not inconsiderable. +10% Commerce in Capital is also really good compared to Monarchy's +5% to Research/Gold/Espionage, since it can usually all be plowed into Research.

As currently structured, Republic becomes a financial strain around 15-20 cities regardless of City Limits, so I'd probably want to be in Monarchy if I was aggressive in Ancient and Classical wars and took territory. If I don't take more territory until overseas colonization becomes a thing (I tend to play with Start In Old World) I might stay in Republic longer because the distance to palace costs for Monarchy are higher and overseas colonies are more likely to suffer Rebellions if not kept happy. Of course, if I have a LOT of them I'll want to be in Monarchy, until I hit Representative Democracy and switch over.

 

[Tgls]

I don't care for how the Justice civics are set up. Vigilantism, Common Law, and Religious Law are fine. Combat Trial was fairly cultural (Wikipedia claims it was only used by Europeans), and is a type of trial not a legal system. This is the same problem with Inquisitorial and Adversarial.

Instead, I think that the civic choices should be: Vigilantism, Arbitrary Law (Completely Arbitrary Law), Codified Law (To represent all types from the Hammurabian Code to Modern Civil Law), Case Law (To represent common law and any other legal system with precedent), Religious Law, Fascistic Law (Law purposely loaded in favour of some groups)

 

[ls612]

What do the numbers come out to then?

I haven't tried it, I posted a question in the Help thread about getting the conditional compile turned on.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Well, does it have that much going for it?

Any time I'm not near the city cap or playing with City Limits off, I switch to Republic for Great People spam and the amazing Agora building, which is one of the best in the game between the era when the Stone Tool Maker is king and the late Renaissance. It's possible I overestimate the value of those bonuses but they are not inconsiderable. +10% Commerce in Capital is also really good compared to Monarchy's +5% to Research/Gold/Espionage, since it can usually all be plowed into Research.

As currently structured, Republic becomes a financial strain around 15-20 cities regardless of City Limits, so I'd probably want to be in Monarchy if I was aggressive in Ancient and Classical wars and took territory. If I don't take more territory until overseas colonization becomes a thing (I tend to play with Start In Old World) I might stay in Republic longer because the distance to palace costs for Monarchy are higher and overseas colonies are more likely to suffer Rebellions if not kept happy. Of course, if I have a LOT of them I'll want to be in Monarchy, until I hit Representative Democracy and switch over.

So for base stats on a Duel size map what would you suggest? Like this?

Anarchism = 1
Chiefdom = 2
Despotism = 4
Monarchy = 10
Republic = 8
Theocracy = 10

Note that map size would increase how many cities were allowed.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

So for base stats on a Duel size map what would you suggest? Like this?

Anarchism = 1
Chiefdom = 2
Despotism = 4
Monarchy = 10
Republic = 8
Theocracy = 10

Note that map size would increase how many cities were allowed.

That seems like a reasonable level for Monarchy, Republic and Theocracy and a good relative level between the two, but the first three seem a little low.

Starting with the mathematical ratio of number of tiles to cities is a good idea, but at the low end it doesn't necessarily reflect what you want to achieve with the limits. You'll probably get the same expansion opportunities in the Prehistoric Era whether you're on a Duel map or a Giant one. I'm assuming the default number of civs here, otherwise that won't be true. To start, you expand a few times and come into contact with other civs. You won't be able to expand beyond 5-10 cities without a fight on most map scripts, but you'll always be able to get 5ish. That won't change as long as the number of civs relative to the number of tiles is balanced.

Afterwards, however, your options change a lot depending on map size (and type). On a Start In Old World game with the Perfect World mapscript, a Small map might have 10 decent city sites for the colonial period. On a Huge map it might have 40. On Huge, there are a lot of starting civs and the ones with weaker starting positions are likely to get gobbled up, so instead of 11 civs with 10 cities each you have 5 civs with 15-16 cities from fighting, or 2 or 3 with 20+ cities, while the others are either destroyed or reduced to rump states.*

The earlygame civics don't need to be lowered much for smaller maps, but conversely, there's no reason to raise them for larger maps. It's the midgame civics (currently Monarchy, Democracy and, for the late-midgame, Theocracy) that need to vary a lot, with small numbers on small maps and large numbers on large maps.

(Note, however, that I've never PLAYED on a Duel map, so I could be missing just how small they are and whether or not they change the earlygame up more. )

*This is what I haven't seen the AI do well to this point. I'm in a game right now where the top AI civ, who was the top civ period up through early Medieval, was at war with three of its weaker neighbors and didn't seem to take ANY of their cities, despite having more than twice the score, a 10+ tech advantage, and favorable terrain. I'm wondering if they wouldn't have done better without the Mastery victory confusing them, though.'

EDIT: If it's easier or cleaner to code a mathematical ratio, having the initial civics lower than they should be on Duel and Tiny and higher on Giant is a minor concern. Everyone, humans and AI alike, are going to leave those civics ASAP.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@MoogleEmpMog

Well like I said in the other post if you start out with the base ratios ...


Base Civic Values
Anarchism = 1
Chiefdom = 2
Despotism = 4
Monarchy = 10
Republic = 8
Theocracy = 10

And then I base the multiplier by the size of the maps. Where Duel had a base of 10 with, Tiny 13, Small, 16, and so on all the way up to 75.

Map Size Multipliers
Duel = 1.0
Tiny = 1.3
Small = 1.6
Standard = 2.1
Large = 2.6
Huge = 3.2
Giant = 4.0
Gigantic = 5.0
Enormous = 6.0
Immense = 7.5

Which comes back to my chart from before.

|Duel|Tiny|Small|Standard|Large|Huge|Giant|Gigantic|Enormous|Immense
Anarchism|1|1|2|2|3|3|4|5|6|8
Chiefdom|2|3|3|4|5|6|8|10|12|16
Despotism|4|5|6|8|10|13|16|20|24|30
Monarchy|10|13|16|21|26|32|40|50|60|75
Republic|8|10|13|17|21|26|32|40|48|60
Theocracy|10|13|16|21|26|32|40|50|60|75

However if we want to use the average of all then the Large or Huge Stats should be used which are ...

Anarchism = 3
Chiefdom = 6
Despotism = 13
Monarchy = 32
Republic = 26
Theocracy = 32

To round off things I personally think that this would be better ...

Anarchism = 3
Chiefdom = 6
Despotism = 12
Monarchy = 30
Republic = 25
Theocracy = 30

Note this would be if there was no distinction between map sizes.

 

[GT Ranma]

Case in point is the 1 city syndrome I see where for whatever reason the AI is trapped or blocked in by the PC or other civs and cannot expand. I suspect this may be an issue of smaller maps but I could see it on larger maps if the top empires expand too fast, too early.

I don't this this is an issue for smaller maps, as I said I am currently playing a Huge game, and 3 countries are right up my buttox, and 6 or 7 JUST got 3 cities... I could easly roll over them if I wanted, but in a Marathon Huge map it now takes 2-3 turns to make 1 unit in my Manufacturing city, and 3-4 in my other cities... I can bairly keep up with how fast the computer is expanding and making units, except for the bottom 5 or 6 countries which are doing almost nothing..... (Thus making the top 3 even stronger since they are expanding everywhere making it so no-one else can expand)

Edit: I think the issue might be in the fact that they all did not switch Civics until they jumped strait to Monarchy, so they were always stuck with low food/production/city limits, ect ect.

 

[ls612]

@CivPlayer8:

Moving to a different topic here, the Civic maintenance changes are really outrageous in my opinion. I think that the issue is that with the TREAT_NEGATIVE_GOLD_AS_MAINTENANCE globaldefine all building costs add into that (and are consequently increased tremendously). These should be looked at soon.

Also, if anyone is interested I wrote up a couple-page document about my feelings on what Civics should be like, I can post that if there is demand for them.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Also, if anyone is interested I wrote up a couple-page document about my feelings on what Civics should be like, I can post that if there is demand for them.

I would like to see your take on it.

 

[GT Ranma]

^ Second.

I wanted to write up a page with all the current civics with all the bonuses and ect next to the name. A list if you will that could be looked at for reference (to see how each stacks up to each other without having to open civ)... but I to lazy ; ; Been really busy trying to find a job b4 I can't pay rent...

 

[strategyonly]

Also, if anyone is interested I wrote up a couple-page document about my feelings on what Civics should be like, I can post that if there is demand for them.

Thats what THESE threads are for, ideas/suggestions on how to make things better or at least try.

 

[ls612]

Here it is. It actually involves a lot if balance issues and Civics are about 40% of the document.

I hope that this is useful and that the recommendations are implemented.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Why did you just not post it as a post? *goes to read it*

 

[ls612]

Why did you just not post it as a post? *goes to read it*

Because I dislike generally making giant walls of text on the forums. If I have an in-depth and long analysis of something I'll make a document of it.

 

[GT Ranma]

*rubs chin* That is true, ls612, before people understood that garbage and personal hygiene was so important, we had 2 or 3 major plagues. Once they got the idea to throw the trash OUTSIDE of the cities the health in the cities rose dramatically.

I almost feel like it should modify how many is produced per person, rather then just be a static #.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@ls612

After reading over your PDF I think I shall focus on the Civics part since that's what this topic is about.

Government
I have spoke about the city limits and how I wish for Totalitarianism (aka Fascism) to be returned (which it has). I also have already spoken how I would like the number to be returned to the old values ...

Anarchism = 3
Chiefdom = 6
Despotism = 10
Monarchy = 12
Republic = 20
Theocracy = 20

However I am opening to making Monarchy 20 and Republic 12, if that makes it more historically accurate. We may also want to use the 1:2:4:10:8:10 ratio instead. Note that I think Totalitarianism can act like a late game Despotism and Democracy can act as a late game Republic but without city limits.

Power
Not really anything to complain about. Same as you.

Society
I don't see why you chnage from 50% to 30% could not be done. No real complaints from me.

Economy
Yeah Subsistence needs to be better than Barter if you want people to switch over. And yeah Slavery, where its going. I have no idea. Personally I thought ti would be good in the proposed Labor Civic (which I think we need), also as you said DH has some plans too. It would be good if we could all agree on something. And yeah the Corporation stuff should be junked now that they are National Wonders and not Fake Corporations. The rest I do not have a strong opinion about. However I do think that more Civics like Green should be giving anti-pollution stuff since now that's a factor.

Military
That's a good idea about the higher upkeep conversion. And yeah Cloning should be at Gene Enhancement tech, not Cloning since that was designated at the tech that unlocks Human cloning. Animal cloning was at Cloning tech. I also agree that MAD should have the AI work better. And Pacifism should stay as the Anti-Military Military Civic, just like Atheism is the Anti-Religion Religious Civic.

Religion
I have no strong opinion on the Religious Civics other than I agree that religious buildings should be disabled. Perhaps make all religious buildings require all of the other civics except for Atheism civic (and Irreligion).

Welfare
Yeah, no real complaints from me either.

Garbage
I completely agree that we should include the pollution properties in these techs. In fact that's one of the reasons I made those properties in the first place. I would have already changed it but CivPlayer8 seems to be our "Civics Guy' now and I did not want to step on his toes.

Immigration
Yeah I am interested in DH's Immigration mod and how these civics would influence it.

Language
This one I have to disagree with you about. I would like to still keep it a civic and the way it is so the different factors are clearly represented instead of hidden within tech upgrades. However I think the new tags should be made since they could be used for other things. Just not this.

Education
I can explain these.

1. Propaganda was influencing people without them realizing it. Thus the

2. Corporate Education is much more blatant and thus people were realizing they were being manipulated (for better or worse). Thus the Alos I think its important for balance.

3. E-Education has because the lack of physical activity. Unlike normal school where you have to leave your home e-education can allow you to learn in your underwear and never have to leave the house.

In short please keep these. I worked hard to get them flesh out. Education, Garbage and Language are basically all designed by me.

Agriculture
Also no complaints.

Currency
No opinion other than I first did not like the category but not have learned to like it.

Politics
Also surprised on the new category but have also learned to like it.

I will go over other sections later. Possibly in other more appropriate topics.