C2C - Event Ideas

[AIAndy]

There is one problem with ice age modelling in general (and I think we should focus on that, earthquake and volcanic events are already there and as Koshling said most other tectonic changes have a far larger time scale): The map scripts have different approaches and currently yield a post ice age map with only plot and terrain information, no height map or climate map (although several use that internally).

So either those are changed to provide height and climate maps for a pre ice age map or there has to be an inverse approach to ice age modelling. Instead of computing the ice age effect as it happens, you start with the post ice age map from the map scripts, then apply the inverse ice age effects, then when the actual turns happen, you slowly undo them until you end up with the post ice age map from the map scripts (which you have stored separately on the plots).

On the other hand going for the full change to the map scripts so you always have the height, temperature and climate information for all plots would allow for quite some interesting dynamic simulations with the property system.

 

[DRJ]

There is one problem with ice age modelling in general (and I think we should focus on that, earthquake and volcanic events are already there and as Koshling said most other tectonic changes have a far larger time scale):

Yes, but as right now volcanoes and earthquakes are not simulated perfectly, my approach was to create more active regions, not just random events but more likely follow-up events (whole tectonic trenches that are active for some thousand years and then calm down), as well as bursting supervolcanoes that effect whole world climate (might be really interesting in combination with ice ages --> as the room of good terrain gets much smaller all nomad tribes are pressed against each other --> for example the theory is that because of the drying out of Sahara, a few thousand years ago, the remaining human tribes conglomerated in last fertile local region, the nile, thus founding one of the first civilizations!)

The map scripts have different approaches and currently yield a post ice age map with only plot and terrain information, no height map or climate map (although several use that internally).
So either those are changed to provide height and climate maps for a pre ice age map or there has to be an inverse approach to ice age modelling. Instead of computing the ice age effect as it happens, you start with the post ice age map from the map scripts, then apply the inverse ice age effects, then when the actual turns happen, you slowly undo them until you end up with the post ice age map from the map scripts (which you have stored separately on the plots).

Interesting idea, but in the last 300000 years there was more than one ice age and those ice ages had different length and shaped different ereas.

So if a multiple memory inverse plot property system would be possible that would be no problem of course.

It always really annoyed me that in relation to history fire is always researched too late in the game so that's what drives me for such an early date to begin with... + prior to flint knapping, wanderers searching for some burning trees stuck by lightening to gather some fire would be fantastic (I guess I was reminded of this cool and inspiring movie I watched once)

Spoiler :

Title Card: 80,000 years ago, man's survival in a vast uncharted land depended on the possession of fire. / For those early humans, fire was an object of great mystery, since no one had mastered its creation. Fire had to be stolen from nature, it had to be kept alive - sheltered from wind and rain, guarded from rival tribes. / Fire was a symbol of power and a means of survival. The tribe who possessed fire, possessed life.

On the other hand going for the full change to the map scripts so you always have the height, temperature and climate information for all plots would allow for quite some interesting dynamic simulations with the property system.

Absolutely, that would certainly be the better approach than doing it all with events and stuff, just had no other way how to draw it out. What first steps could be taken to try some new things? If some examples could be given to me I would gladly experiment a bit with it although I am too inexperienced with the coding matters I guess...


Btw. as I think this question was lost sight of: who could be the right person to inquire the merging of some graphics to get smoke over a plains/plains forest hill to simulate it is on fire? Or is there a tutorial how to do it?

 

[AIAndy]

Interesting idea, but in the last 300000 years there was more than one ice age and those ice ages had different length and shaped different ereas.

The current ice age (and yes, we are still within one) started 2.58 million years ago and consists of a sequence of glacial and interglacial periods. Currently we are in an interglacial but man-made global warming will probably delay or completely avoid the next glacial period.

That does not change that if we start 300000 years ago, we need to simulate several advances and retreats of glaciers.

 

[Hanny]

Btw. as I think this question was lost sight of: who could be the right person to inquire the merging of some graphics to get smoke over a plains/plains forest hill to simulate it is on fire? Or is there a tutorial how to do it?

Why not have it on fire?, which removes ancient forrest and regrows back as young forest, burn Forest, burn....

Terrain starting as cold ( increased ice and Tundra and plain ) and warming up is done as an option in MoM, fire clearing forests by fireball spell/dragon breath is a game mechanic, so you could look at how it was achived in MoM.

 

[DRJ]

Ok that mechanic could be taken a look at but I don't know, probably I can't understand the code anyway, that's why I pictured out how it could be done via (invisible) events/quests.

I don't want the forest to burn down completely at once, I want it "on fire" for 1, 2 turns.

It shall be part of early game when your wanderers are out there in the wild trying to collect fire for the tribe (think of early fire as a "good", lasting for random amount of turns, making butchering animals in capital [nomad camp] more effective for example - as long as you haven't invented flint knapping).

Plus, I like to see some neat graphics in the game like now there are smoking volcano or storm I want in coming versions tiles that are burning or flooded. So what I wished to see is just smoke (and some of the red glue) mixed into the graphics of a savanna/plains/forest hill plains as well as some coast wave graphics mixed over muddy/grasslands/lush to simulate a flood (like fire lasting for 1, 2 turns)...


EDIT: I don't know if I understood you right: does the fireball spell actually set the tile on fire or is it just clearing the tile?

 

[rightfuture]

Tsunami

also a major historical event (very rare), like the Black Sea flood, that could have been the biblical flood of Noah, would be nice. Players may feel singled out, but if it is very rare then it would give a sense of fun realism. Maybe once a game, random in the world, for each major type of disaster: Chicago fire (plus the almost complete burning of Rome, Alexandria, London), San francisco earthquake, hurricane Katrina, etc. Also you could set it so that possibility of it even showing up in a game is 50/50 or worse, so every game doesn't have a black sea flood.
Less destructive disasters could have once in 3 eras (that way people could adjust to them) it could be a minor loss with major terrain displacement(forest burns down, coast turns to water/vice versa, land uplift/collapse, etc.)
big fires / floods happen with a certain regularity, more likely in areas prone to those disasters.

Megadisasters - Black Sea Flood proved
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URPaMGjnCvU
I recommend watching at least a few minutes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/blacksea/ax/frame.html

I think land changing disasters should be given their own section of events. Even if the changes are temporary.

 

[Hanny]

I don't want the forest to burn down completely at once, I want it "on fire" for 1, 2 turns.

First there is smoke over the tile, ( smoke rises from the trees) it might turn to fire or it might go out. if it burns, ( flames wrap around the tile so its a resource hog if the fire covers a large erea, best to limit it to all adjacent tiles and no further) it last a random amount of turns of being on fire, and can spread to other tiles. Units cannot enter while full fire is occuring. fires die out and the forrest is shown burnt down, and a new young forest grows, with lower forest values until it turns into mature forests.

Fire based attack (fireball, dragon attacks) have a chance to start smoke, smoke may turn into fire, some are units can put out fires by magic spells.

Praeries of the US was created and maintained by deliberate burning of the forest.http://www.wildlandfire.com/docs/biblio_indianfire.htm so we could have the gatherer have the set fires atribute, to start smoke which could turn into fire to clear the tile, slash and burn was not always just clear me 40 acres with fire please.

 

[ori]

Just a few thoughts:

@Hydro: this is the post about the flame events.

I also don't think the events mechanic is good for erosion etc. simulation - mostly because the way it is currently setup is that you can only have one event per player per turn triggered and if you add something like this you'll likely swamp out most other events. Also trigger chance is mostly a set number not a per-tile number (one can fudge this a bit - but it is actually risking simply not triggering any event instead of just skipping the one you are fudging).

As for truly catastrophic events: I can include those, like with the great fire event, but really we should have a large amount of other non-catastrophic events for any catastrophic one to keep players from getting too annoyed

Also I am very loath to do a few things, e.g. wiping out a city all together, I just don't see it as all that fun to happen. If you have even strong obstacles hurled in your way by chance that may actually be fun, being defeated by a game mechanic purely based on chance just doesn'T cut it in gameplay terms for me.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

One thing that is needed is some indication of how different many events we have per era or some other time/tech related duration. In the early period it is not unusual to get the tornado wipe out your only source of something every 3-5 turns (or at least it seems like it). I assume this is because we have fewer early events than later events.

 

[Hydromancerx]

@Hydro: this is the post about the flame events.

Ah I must be blind. Ah ok no wonder I almost never get fire events. Its always under 100.

One thing that is needed is some indication of how different many events we have per era or some other time/tech related duration. In the early period it is not unusual to get the tornado wipe out your only source of something every 3-5 turns (or at least it seems like it). I assume this is because we have fewer early events than later events.

DH has a point. In early game I can get the same event a bunch of time such as like 3 hurricanes in the same city within 3-5 turns apart. Likewise I had it happen where I got like 3 horse migrations to one city. Boy I had a lot of horse resources that game.

 

[ori]

Generally I think due to the way events were added we have more the further you proceed, especially given that most never go obsolete but have tech requirements to be active.

Problem with giving a clear answer is that they are not triggered by era, but rather have tech and/or building requirements and some have obsoletion techs. Getting them all in some kind of order will be quite a task

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Generally I think due to the way events were added we have more the further you proceed, especially given that most never go obsolete but have tech requirements to be active.

Problem with giving a clear answer is that they are not triggered by era, but rather have tech and/or building requirements and some have obsoletion techs. Getting them all in some kind of order will be quite a task

Theoretically we have a tool which should take the bits of the XML needed and put it in a spreadsheet form, but there is no documentation on how to use it.

 

[ls612]

Theoretically we have a tool which should take the bits of the XML needed and put it in a spreadsheet form, but there is no documentation on how to use it.

Yeah, frankly that tool sucks. I literally spent a week a while ago getting error messages and learning new words trying to get it to work, and eventually just gave up.

I think a while ago Koshling suggested adding something to the DLL that would generate a spreadsheet on load, but that was a long time ago.

 

[rightfuture]

As for truly catastrophic events: I can include those, like with the great fire event, but really we should have a large amount of other non-catastrophic events for any catastrophic one to keep players from getting too annoyed

Also I am very loath to do a few things, e.g. wiping out a city all together, I just don't see it as all that fun to happen. If you have even strong obstacles hurled in your way by chance that may actually be fun, being defeated by a game mechanic purely based on chance just doesn'T cut it in gameplay terms for me.

Edited:

I have two suggestions for solutions to the consequence problem, the first is to make a total city loss event happen for AI civs only. The second would be to make total loss events part of a Total Realism option package chosen at the start of a game, like Revolutions. I think such an option (real world chances) could be a significant bundle for C2C desired by enough hardcore players; the option could be left off for the ease/fun factor of the majority of softcore players. I know it would be a major feature that would require more than several versions to be designed and built, but I think it is worth it to solve the soft/hard player balance/happiness issue once and for all. All issues that have harsher (controversial) consequences could be programmed into part of Total Realism component. All softer consequences and ease of gameplay solutions could be left as a default.

For the sake of realism, Most of the catastrophic events like the burning of Alexandria, Rome, London, Chicago took out the majority of a city, but did not destroy them. I think that it should be possible to have a 80% loss (but very rare). For fun I agree that the player would get very mad if they lost a city(especially one they spent hours developing). A staggered linear equation with event losses proportionate to how often they occur would give some life to the world. Example 80% loss of a city once a game (w 50/50 chance of even happening per game), 60% loss 2x /game, 40% 3x, etc. Event loss could always be adjusted down for fun of gameplay. Often enough to have effect, infrequent enough not to be annoying. Consequences, and unforeseen events are a part of life; maybe having buildings that offset the chances ('Boy Scout' preparedness and foresight), i.e. Fire Stations prevent fires, Police stations offset crime, FEMA is supposed to offset hurricanes (I'm from Katrina affected Louisiana). Any event that completely nerfs the players investment in the game or the civs momentum is not fun. Overcoming some major external challenges is though. Balance is the key.

I'm all for solving the major yes/no controversies in C2C/Civ 4 with a themed option package (as needed and in time). I think realistic vs fun-smooth gameplay is probably the biggest Civ IV modding tug of war, and could be permanently solved this way.
I think eventually this concept should be a priority.

You really should have some possibilities for external civilization and city changing events. Without some risk there is a less of a feeling of reward. The feeling of accomplishment is somewhat enhanced by the overcoming of adversity in a game. To have a living world, events and changes need to happen around you. Animals are a good start, environmental changes, events with ongoing meaning, random blips in the road, varying challenges, and a dynamic world spices up gameplay and keeps the game from ever being boring.

 

[Koshling]

Edited:

I have two suggestions for solutions to the consequence problem, the first is to make a total city loss event happen for AI civs only. The second would be to make total loss events part of a Total Realism option package chosen at the start of a game, like Revolutions. I think such an option (real world chances) could be a significant bundle for C2C desired by enough hardcore players; the option could be left off for the ease/fun factor of the majority of softcore players. I know it would be a major feature that would require more than several versions to be designed and built, but I think it is worth it to solve the soft/hard player balance/happiness issue once and for all. All issues that have harsher (controversial) consequences could be programmed into part of Total Realism component. All softer consequences and ease of gameplay solutions could be left as a default.

For the sake of realism, Most of the catastrophic events like the burning of Alexandria, Rome, London, Chicago took out the majority of a city, but did not destroy them. I think that it should be possible to have a 80% loss (but very rare). For fun I agree that the player would get very mad if they lost a city(especially one they spent hours developing). A staggered linear equation with event losses proportionate to how often they occur would give some life to the world. Example 80% loss of a city once a game (w 50/50 chance of even happening per game), 60% loss 2x /game, 40% 3x, etc. Event loss could always be adjusted down for fun of gameplay. Often enough to have effect, infrequent enough not to be annoying. Consequences, and unforeseen events are a part of life; maybe having buildings that offset the chances ('Boy Scout' preparedness and foresight), i.e. Fire Stations prevent fires, Police stations offset crime, FEMA is supposed to offset hurricanes (I'm from Katrina affected Louisiana). Any event that completely nerfs the players investment in the game or the civs momentum is not fun. Overcoming some major external challenges is though. Balance is the key.

I'm all for solving the major yes/no controversies in C2C/Civ 4 with a themed option package (as needed and in time). I think realistic vs fun-smooth gameplay is probably the biggest Civ IV modding tug of war, and could be permanently solved this way.
I think eventually this concept should be a priority.

You really should have some possibilities for external civilization and city changing events. Without some risk there is a less of a feeling of reward. The feeling of accomplishment is somewhat enhanced by the overcoming of adversity in a game. To have a living world, events and changes need to happen around you. Animals are a good start, environmental changes, events with ongoing meaning, random blips in the road, varying challenges, and a dynamic world spices up gameplay and keeps the game from ever being boring.

Optional package, fine. AI only I would totally want to veto. I'd say human only before AI only - it has enough trouble as it is.

 

[ori]

well, it is fascinating how much you can break when you just work on 4 files, 3 of which are xml

anyhow, I am working on some events, but its slow going getting back into it...

 

[Hydromancerx]

Hazzah! (Hope this is not an April Fools joke).

 

[ori]

Its not, I actually did get some time in to fiddle with things (and then broke everything quite thoroughly) - but I am making slow progress on some stuff. I won't be fast in churning out code, but there will be new events coming to a cave near you soon

 

[ori]

so my computer's hard drive failed - its still in warranty and I'll get a new one tomorrow, but I lost everything I did the last few weeks and will need to set the whole thing up again

I think this is a good time to just say what I am (re-)doing currently:

1) I would like to see feedback on the fire events - so I increased their likelyhood. I also am trying to get some workable ideas for some events that counteract fire events - something like learning from past fires and such.

2) The early eras need more events. I am currently looking at (and had been working on) adapting the "Man named Jed" event for most or all resources. I think that would do it nicely and reward early game exploration a bit.

Spoiler Man named Jed :

this is an event which offers a high chance to discover oil on a specific tile if you do not know the tech revealing it yet. It can fire if a scout/explorer spendes the interturn on a tile that has unrevealed oil

 

[Koshling]

so my computer's hard drive failed - its still in warranty and I'll get a new one tomorrow, but I lost everything I did the last few weeks and will need to set the whole thing up again

I think this is a good time to just say what I am (re-)doing currently:

1) I would like to see feedback on the fire events - so I increased their likelyhood. I also am trying to get some workable ideas for some events that counteract fire events - something like learning from past fires and such.

2) The early eras need more events. I am currently looking at (and had been working on) adapting the "Man named Jed" event for most or all resources. I think that would do it nicely and reward early game exploration a bit.

Spoiler Man named Jed :

this is an event which offers a high chance to discover oil on a specific tile if you do not know the tech revealing it yet. It can fire if a scout/explorer spendes the interturn on a tile that has unrevealed oil

If you have a decent internet connection, one of the background online backup providers is a good investment (I use Mozy, but I belieev Carbonite is decent too). Makes recovery from those events (or moving to a new computer on upgrade) very easy - IMO having to do it once justifies the cost.