C2C- Prehistoric /Ancient / Classical / Medieval / Renaissance Eras

[Azurian]

Prehistoric 50,000 B.C to ~8,000 B.C
Ancient 8,000 B.C to 500 B.C
Classical 500 B.C to 500 A.D
Medieval 500 A.D to 1300 A.D
Renassiance 1300 A.D to 1750 A.D

Ancient Employment
Hydro feel free to edit stats, I don't know about game balance in Ancient Era.


Handyman Hut (traveled and fixed things with his toolchest. First tools made out of bone, then later metal)
Era: Ancient
Requires Potterty (to store tools and buiding material)
requires Seal Maker or Tablet Maker
requires Travois Maker or Wheelwright
Maybe carpenter workshop
Enables Tools (if we have, ignore)


Livestock Auctionhouse
Era: Ancient
requires Sheep or cow or horse or donkey or poultry or rabbit or kangaroo or bison or llama
requires Seal Maker or Tablet Maker
Ancient barter-auctioneer who primary role was to auction off livestock for clients in exchange for other goods.



Forage Plantifene (traveling hay merchant for livestock)
Era:Ancient
Grass or Reeds or Vines or Straw or Bark
Turns them into and (people can feed livestock at farms without looking for forage)
requires Seal Maker or Tablet Maker
requires Travois Maker or Wheelwright
Amongst land animals, forage is plant material (mainly plant leaves and stems) eaten by grazing livestock.


Marine Cashmarie (traveling fish merchant, before markets)
Era: Ancient
Shrimp or Lobster or Clams or Fish or Crabs
requires Pottery
+ 1 with Salt
+ 1 with Whale
requires Seal Maker or Tablet Maker
requires Travois Maker or Wheelwright
A Marine Cashmarie is a merchant who sold fish from the coast to inland markets. The fish was stored in pottery jars, and was ment to be cooked the same day, since salt was not yet avaliable.

 

[Azurian]

Scissor Tailor (taliored and made clothes for the rich,)
Era: Late Ancient
Replaces Seamstress Hut
Requires: some type of metal, cloth, rope.
Produces 1 Scissors, String, Linen, Cambric
Requires Seal Maker or Tablet Maker
Replaced by Embroidery Tailor in Classical (not added)


Lady Fruitestere (traveling fruit merchant, before markets)
Era: Ancient
Resources :[fruits]
+ ??? food, + ??? gold
-??? Disease
requires Pottery OR Baskets
Requires Seal Maker or Tablet Maker
Requires Travois Maker or Wheel Right



House Dominie (tutored and took care of kids in exchange for food and place, was also the family butler and bodyguard. A skilled teacher and fighter. Mesopotamia before egyptian scribes )
Era: Ancient
Resources: Toys, Tablets
+ ???
-??? :disease:
-??? :crime: (small, like -1 or -2)
Replaces Childcare Hut
Requires Seal Maker or Tablet Maker

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

House Dominie (tutored and took care of kids in exchange for food and place, was also the family butler and bodyguard. A skilled teacher and fighter. Mesopotamia before egyptian scribes )
Era: Ancient
Resources: Toys, Tablets
+ ???
-??? :disease:
-??? :crime: (small, like -1 or -2)
Replaces Childcare Hut
Requires Seal Maker or Tablet Maker

This looks like the Tutor Slave, I have not yet implemented but mine require a certain level of housing Dominus and better.

 

[strategyonly]

This looks like the Tutor Slave, I have not yet implemented but mine require a certain level of housing Dominus and better.

Nah he looks like the slave/gladiator teacher from Spartacus NEW series, and might i add, it was a FANDAMNTASIC mini-series

http://www.starz.com/originals/spartacus/cast/Oenomaus

The original Spartacus was the best, to bad he died right after season 1.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Handyman Hut

1. Hold off on this. I had something else in mind but I just have not gotten around to it yet.

Livestock Auctionhouse

2. I think it should be based on the livestock buildings. So ...

Livestock Auction House
Req Building: Auction House (Sheep Farm OR Goat Farm OR Pig Farm OR Llama Farm OR Camel Farm OR Donkey Farm OR Horse Farm OR Elephant Farm OR Mammoth Farm)
Req Tech: Currency (Since that's when Auction House is unlocked)

Forage Plantifene

Hmm. Just call it a "Hay Merchant" or "Hay Cart" then I think it might work.

Marine Cashmarie

4. We already have a Fishmonger and a Fisherman's Hut. I do not think we need this too.

Scissor Tailor

5. We already have a Tailor Shop at Aesthetics tech.

Lady Fruitestere

6. This seems a bit redundant. I do not think its needed. Plus I don't like the name.

House Dominie

7. I don't know about this. Like DH said its sounds like Tutor Slave. Also we have a lot of schoos already like the School of Scribes, Gladiator School, etc. Also if i was adding an Ancient/Classical school I would add a "Grammaticus" like in Civ City Rome.

 

[Azurian]

For simplicity, this is the basics of Business.

The product is the thing that is sold. In C2C its resources.
The producer is the entity that makes the product.
The retailer/merchant is the person who sells the product.

Fruit = product
Fruit Farm = producer
Fruitestere = retailer/merchant.

Livestock=product
Livestock farm =producer
Livestock Auctionhouse = retailer/merchant.


Fish = product
Fishmonger/Fisherman Hut = producer
Cashmarie = retailer/merchant

Wood =product
Lumbermill = producer
Firewood Seller = retailer/merchant.

1.As someone who can read Latin, I don't understand your naming decisions.
You deny the name Plantifene (the correct and proper term for a forage merchant in Ancient Age) but allow another Latin word Grammaticus.

2.A Fishmonger and a Cashmarie are two different entities separated by thousands of years.THOUSANDS OF YEARS. One is the Producer and the Other is the Retailer/Merchant. A Fishmonger does not have access to pottery, tablets, seal makers, or salt, and fish selling to inland markets didnt start until the concept of Cashmarie started . The fishmonger would only barter his fish nearby, a cashmarine would travel to sell it. The proper word is Chassemarée but I converted it to English.

3. Actually my mistake, a Scissor Tailor existed during the middle ages.

4. With all due respect, one of the elements I am struggling to understand is how you decide on implementing stuff. For certain things you have one standard but then change the standard on the next thing. You said yes to a Plantifene but said a Fruitestere is too redundant. I don't understand how, they are both merchants but in different classes. They are the first Merchants, everything else before are producers. The issue is starting in the ancient age, specialization began to happen at cities, and people didn't have to do all the work, they could buy stuff from traveling merchants.

5. Another issue I am seeing is you like to group things that existed in two time periods into one. In this case, you like to take 8,000 B.C elements and give them to Rome/Greeks.

6. Another is you like to create a group of building for the metal industry but deny it for other industries. You have Smelter, Ingots, Wares, Ore for Gold (4 elements) but won't allow 3 Elements (Fruit, Fruit farm, Fruitestere),that is the standard way of business. Product, Producer, Retailer/Merchant is accurate in the business world and in business textbooks. It doesn't make any sense at all that it doesn't work that way. The good thing about Caveman2Cosmos is the product are resources.

pencil = product
Pencil Factory = producer
Art Store = retailer/merchant

Sometimes there can be a middleman, but the concept hasn't been used before so its best to stick with the Product, Producer, Retailer/Merchant way.

. In Indrustrial Age it became:
product
producer
middleman
retalier/merchant

with the use of franchisees and especially kids.

I will try to be clearer in the future when discussing concepts, I assumed everyone knows concepts like these.

EDIT: We are missing quite a bit of retailers /merchants.

 

[Azurian]

Can you post a list of what buildings you are planning, I am on the dark. I have about 2,500 buildings combined all eras I want to add in slowly . We have already added/reviewed about 100+ so far.

 

[Hydromancerx]

Fish = product
Fishmonger/Fisherman Hut = producer
Cashmarie = retailer/merchant

Then it would be ...

Fish = product (map resource of fish)
Tuna Nets = producer (makes raw fish resource)
Fishmonger = retailer/merchant (sells raw fish)

Fruit = product
Fruit Farm = producer
Fruitestere = retailer/merchant.

Apples = product (map resouce of Apples)
Apple Orchard = producer (makes fruit resource)
Grocer = retailer/merchant. (Sells fruit resource)

1.As someone who can read Latin, I don't understand your naming decisions.
You deny the name Plantifene (the correct and proper term for a forage merchant in Ancient Age) but allow another Latin word Grammaticus.

Not everything has to be in latin. I am not even sure if we should have this building to be frank.

4. With all due respect, one of the elements I am struggling to understand is how you decide on implementing stuff. For certain things you have one standard but then change the standard on the next thing. You said yes to a Plantifene but said a Fruitestere is too redundant. I don't understand how, they are both merchants but in different classes. They are the first Merchants, everything else before are producers. The issue is starting in the ancient age, specialization began to happen at cities, and people didn't have to do all the work, they could buy stuff from traveling merchants.

Well we already have a Grocer which covers fruit. We did not have any merchant that covered hay or straw yet. That was my reasoning.

 

[Azurian]

Looks good to me.

 

[Azurian]

Ancient
This is my list of what I was thinking of adding to Ancient in my modmodmod but lets see if we can add them to C2C.

Bagniokeeper (Keeper of a bathhouse or brothel.) [ upgrade of excrement holes and harems)
Forage Plantifene
Canting Caller
Fish Cashmarie
Grain Chafferer (chaff is the dry, scaly protective casings of the seeds of cereal grain)
Quary Delphman (Worker in quarries or open pits, usually quarrying stone in pots on horses)
Tax Exciseman
Tablet Messenger
Firewood Merchant
Animal Faunist (an animal doctor)
Hide Fellmonger (Dealer in hides and skins , also recycled inedible animal parts for glue, fertiliser, offal, horn, bone, gut etc. Basically, he ran the "knacker's yard".)


Licensed Infirmarian (ancient doctor)
Field Master (Inspected hedges and fences of a parish and also impounded stray animals )

Lady Fruitestere
City Forester (planted trees inside city)

Birth Accoucheur (Assisted women in childbirth (midwife) [upgrade of Childbirth Hut, upgrades to Grace wife in Middle]

City Washerwoman [upgrade of Laundry Hut]

Herd Lairman (Looked after cattle during their brief stops at "lairages", which were the areas where cattle were temporarily housed while in transit to markets.)

Prime Limeburner (Burned limestone (calcium carbonate) in kilns to produce lime for farmers, quicklime for making mortar and for tanneries to remove hair from hides.)

Torch Escort (escorts people to their home at night, a town guard )
Musicker Vocalist (anicent singer, before chiors )
Songbird Merchant
Pottery Paintress ( painted pottery symbols)
Ornamental Pargeter (Applied pargetting (ornamental plaster) to buildings)
Recipe Artisan
School Dominie
Street Poopfetcher (kids who picked up excrement and sold them to farmers)
Town Registrar (census)
Ornamental Plumassier (upgrade of Featherworker Hut)
Seedsman Merchant
Sissor Tailor
Tabernarius Tavern (earliest Tavern or innkeeper)
Furniture Upholdster
Incarceration Warder (ancient jail)
Freshwater Merchant
Handyman Wright

Stargazing
-Soltice Festival
-Supernova Festival
-Lunar Eclipse Festival

 

[Azurian]

part II

House Maids /Chatelaine (Mistress of the house , upgrade of housekeeper in Hygiene)

Accoutrement Maker (Supplier or maker of Military Clothing and Accessories, primalry for Equipment of combat mod).

Calico Printer(Dyed, coloured and printed calico)

Caster / Castorer (Made small bottles for sprinkling salt, pepper, sugar etc.)

Die Sinker (When forging metals, lays out, machines, and finishes impression cavities in die blocks to produce forging dies, following blueprints and applying knowledge of die sinking)

Dorca Seamstress (upgrade of seantress hut but before metals)

Farrier (A blacksmith who shoes horses 2) Horse Doctor 3) Cavalry NCO responsible for horses)

Zoographer ( Describes and classifies animals via ideograms )

 

[Azurian]

Ornamental Plumassier
National Wonder
+2 + 2 + 3
+1 with Beads
+1 with Gold
+1 with Dyes
+1 with Insects
+ 1 with Tech Trade
Requires Feathers
Requires Tech Pottery
Requires Featherworkers Hut
Requires Potters Hut
Obsolete with Plastics

A Plumassier is an elder that prepares and sells ornamental plumes or feathers, and were popular in Mesoamerican and Native American cultures. The Plumassier dyed feathers in a pottery pot and added beads or gold trinkets to the ends that were popular in the warrior classes. Insects or natural pigments were used as dyes.

Pottery Laundromat
+ 2 - 3 disease
Requires Laundry Hut
Requires Potters Hut
Requires Tech Pottery

Wash clothes in big pottery pots.

Animal Faunist
National Wonder

+ 2 - 5 Disease
+ 1 with Sheep
+ 1 with cow
+1 with Pigs
+1 with Deer
+1 with Poultry
Mounted Units Heal an extra 10%/Turn.
Requires Medical Seamstress Hut
Requires Ideograms
Requires Animal Riding
Requires Horses, or Elephants or Camels or Llama

An ancient veterinarian.

 

[Faustmouse]

Why are two of them NWs? Just because they are so powerful or is there any logic behind this?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Why are two of them NWs? Just because they are so powerful or is there any logic behind this?

I think it is because they are more tribal/group traditions rather than individual buildings.

 

[Azurian]

Well the Ornamental Plumassier and Animal Faunist were high status elders.

Ornamental Plumassier = Americas
Animal Faunist = Europe

The Ornamental Plumassier was the person who made elaborate feathered headdress that took months to complete and were part of the "royalty" right under chiefs. They had a group of people working to get them the feathers and supplies and they were the ones that "assembled" the headwear for warriors and chiefs.

MesoAmerican


North American


South American


I could make it a regular building ( + 1 + 2 :happiness: + 2 ) but it will gain +1 from Beads, Gold, Insects, Indigo, Jewerly. they were part of the cultural identity of American tribes.. I also forgot to put + 1 from Indigo and Pearls for the Ornamental Plumassier.


Part of the problem is that the C2C Team grouped all the Native American, Meso American, and South American tribes in Prehistoric Era..when irl they existed in epochs between 3,000 B.C to 1460 A.D I have no problem with that, but there are still technological advances that were prominent past Prehistoric for them, like Pottery, Stargazing, Calendar, Code of Laws, Road Building, Literature, Metal working, Floristry, and Music that advance their cultures.

Ornamental Plumassier is technically a Middle Ages building as the practice started between 500 A.D to 1000 A.D



As for the Animal Faunist, he/she was a high class animal doctor in Europe mainly who helped heal and nurse the horses/camels/elephants of the warriors. There skills were mostly herbal remedies, injury repair, and animal behavior/obedience. They also studied the local animal life. The reason they are a national wonder is because of the Heal Mounted Units/10% a turn. This could be a regular building.

 

[Azurian]

Sq I want to move Sedentary Lifestyle one back so we have extra room in Ancient Era, Classical Era, and Medival Era. Possibly move Tengism back one too. We will have 20 extra spaces. Or wait to add some missing technologies.

On my list for Ancient :
Symbolism (ideograms and ancestor worship). This is the new cultural Identity.

Veterinary (animal husbandry and ideograms)

Specialization (sedentary people don't have to hunt to survive so they can specialize

Leisure aka competition like swimming contest, boulder throwing, the wonder Highland Games, hunting contest, cliff diving, etc.

Ceremony (the new Mythisicm) adolescent ceremony (child enters puberty), manhood ceremony (child has to prove himself to be seen as a man), we can add new Military Standards, will require Symbolism. Cemetery =upgrade of Graveyard.

Acrobatics (the precursor to Athletics, will be mostly for Fight or Flight and Thief Unit stuff. Acrobatic Playground replaced by gymnasium.



Embroidery (the upgrade of sewing.. Requires symbolism). Flag maker, banners maker.

Ancient Taxonomy (the ealiest tech about classifying animals in the most basic manner and study of their behavior).
It can be the upgrade of Animalism and introduce animal temples.


Community (the new CooperationYork and a link between Conduct and code of law). Midwife =upgrade of childbirth Hut. Omega child crew upgrades to Child Laborer. Community is also about having an upgrade of Elder Council called Elder Administration. We can add Advisors like Financial Advisor, Economy Advisor, science advisor etc.



Exploration ). We can add exotic organisms and fruits. I am thinking of adding World awonders that give a free combat promotion like Arctic Combat.
It can be the new Herbalism.

 

[Yudishtira]

May be none of my business but I think this is worth saying... I love your brainstorming/lateral thinking, so I don't intend to be discouraging.

Sq I want to move Sedentary Lifestyle one back so we have extra room in Ancient Era, Classical Era, and Medival Era. Possibly move Tengism back one too. We will have 20 extra spaces. Or wait to add some missing technologies.

On my list for Ancient :
Symbolism (ideograms and ancestor worship). This is the new cultural Identity.

We've got plenty enough techs like this already imo...

Veterinary (animal husbandry and ideograms)

Wouldn't this mean animal medicine is more advanced at this stage than the human branch???

Specialization (sedentary people don't have to hunt to survive so they can specialize

The techs involved in specialization - hunting, sailing, fishing etc. etc. etc. - are all there already.

Leisure aka competition like swimming contest, boulder throwing, the wonder Highland Games, hunting contest, cliff diving, etc.

Agree with this, but rather than leisure, I would say this forms part of the mating display behaviour (thus it probably could go way back earlier).

Ceremony (the new Mythisicm) adolescent ceremony (child enters puberty), manhood ceremony (child has to prove himself to be seen as a man), we can add new Military Standards, will require Symbolism. Cemetery =upgrade of Graveyard.

If this isn't there already, I agree it should be.

Too early for upgrade building for Graveyard - better to add (maybe) a (little) bonus to it.

Acrobatics (the precursor to Athletics, will be mostly for Fight or Flight and Thief Unit stuff. Acrobatic Playground replaced by gymnasium.

This is more of the mating display competition imo. Apart from Bull Leaping which is late Ancient, I know of no evidence for acrobatic activities before Classical. Btw isn't the Gymnasium currently the monastery for Hellenism?

Embroidery (the upgrade of sewing.. Requires symbolism). Flag maker, banners maker.

Sorry but even if you had evidence I wouldn't believe embroidery (even by any other name) should come before very late Ancient. Flag making at this era is done with your teeth lol and any similar rough tools that come to hand (don't need a building for that...).

Ancient Taxonomy (the ealiest tech about classifying animals in the most basic manner and study of their behavior).
It can be the upgrade of Animalism and introduce animal temples.

Not familiar with Animalism. Sounds like a new religion and you want to think twice and then twice more before adding any of them.

Community (the new CooperationYork and a link between Conduct and code of law). Midwife =upgrade of childbirth Hut. Omega child crew upgrades to Child Laborer. Community is also about having an upgrade of Elder Council called Elder Administration. We can add Advisors like Financial Advisor, Economy Advisor, science advisor etc.

Sounds like a good idea overall. I hope you don't go 'overboard' with it.

Exploration ). We can add exotic organisms and fruits. I am thinking of adding World awonders that give a free combat promotion like Arctic Combat.
It can be the new Herbalism.

Like it. Although I think adding fruits/resources is a very minor part of exploration at this era. I would like to see an earlier tech on the Herbalism line that (say) removes the unhealth from Berry Bushes/Fungi (because you now know which ones to eat and which not to). Early Exploration imo is more about familiarization with the lie of the land. I'd like to see a promo for combat within cultural borders to go with it...?

 

[Azurian]

Graph

Spoiler :

Taxonomy

Taxonomy is the practice and science of classification. The word finds its roots in the Greek τάξις, taxis (meaning 'order', 'arrangement') and νόμος, nomos ('law' or 'science'). Originally taxonomy referred only to the classifying of organisms or a particular classification of organisms. In a wider, more general sense, it may refer to a classification of things or concepts, as well as to the principles underlying such a classification. Taxonomy is different from meronomy which is dealing with the classification of parts of a whole.

Specialization

The division of labour is the specialisation of cooperating individuals who perform specific tasks and roles. Historically, an increasingly complex division of labour is associated with the growth of total output and trade, the rise of capitalism, and of the complexity of industrialised processes. The concept and implementation of division of labour has been observed in ancient Sumerian (Mesopotamian) culture, where assignment of jobs in some cities coincided with an increase in trade and economic interdependence. In addition to trade and economic interdependence, division of labour generally increases both producer and individual worker productivity.
In contrast to division of labour, division of work refers to the division of a large task, contract, or project into smaller tasks — each with a separate schedule within the overall project schedule. Division of labour, instead, refers to the allocation of tasks to individuals or organisations according to the skills and/or equipment those people or organisations possess. Often division of labour and division of work are both part of the economic activity within an industrial nation or organisation.

Tech| Requirements
Sedentary Lifestyle| Conduct and Animal Husbandry and Megalithic Construction
||
Ideograms | Pictographs and Sedentary Lifestyle
Pottery | Earth Oven and Portable Shelters and Sedentary Lifestyle
Agriculture | Sedentary Lifestyle and Slash and Burn
Archery | Sedentary Lifestyle and Obsidian Weapons
Ancestor Worship| Celebration
Folk Dance | Sedentary Lifestyle and Prehistoric Dance
Folk Music | Sedentary Lifestyle and Prehistoric Music
||
The Wheel | Pottery and Animal Riding
Oratory| Ancestor Worship
Board Games| Ideograms
Community| Ideograms and Ancestor Worship
Sacrifice Cult|Sedentary Lifestyle and Ancestor Worship
Caste System | Ideograms and Ancestor Worship
||
Naval Warfare |Archery And Sailing and Harpoon Making
Mining | Agriculture and The Wheel
Leisure| Caste System and Board Games
Exploration | The Wheel and Ideograms
Fungiculture| Agriculture and Pottery
Cultural Heritage | Community and Oratory
Apiculture| Pottery and Agriculture
Ceremony | Ideograms and Board Games and Oratory
||
Candle Making| Apiculture and Ancestor Worship
Trade| The Wheel and Ideograms and Exploration
Fermentation| Pottery and Apiculture and Fungiculture
Copper Working | Mining and Archery and The Wheel
Specialization| Exploration and Cultural Heritage
Orchards |Apiculture
Priesthood | Ceremony and Leisure and Cultural Heritage
Dualism| Sacrifice Cult and Priesthood
Mesopotamism| Caste System and Trade
Divination | Ceremony and Ancestor Worship
||
Piracy | Naval Warfare and Fermentation
Oil Lamps | Candle Making and Specialization and Fermentation
Masonry | Specialization and Mining
Lead Working | Copper Working and Specialization
Stargazing | Exploration and Ceremony
Shintoism| Ancestor Worship and Priesthood
Ngaiiism | Dualism and Stargazing
Resurrection| Divination and Priesthood
||
Taxonomy| Trade and Piracy and Specialization
Salt Processing | Masonry and Drying
Sculpture | Masonry and Ceremony
Metal Casting | Lead Working and Oil Lamps and Masonry
Plough| Copper Working and Equine Domestication and Orchards
Chariotry| Equine Domestication and The Wheel and Copper Working
Polytheism | Dualism and Masonry and Stargazing and Sculpture
Andreanism |Divination and Dualism and Stargazing and Masonry
||
Seafearing | Piracy and Taxonomy
Writing | Priesthood and Divination and Trade and Specialization
Sericulture | Taxonomy and Apiculture and
Sundial | Sculpture and Star Gazing
Bronze Working| Metal Casting and Specialization
Ornamentation | Metal Casting and Sculpture
Irrigation| Plough and Mining
Karma|Divination and Polytheism
Mummification| Taxonomy and Resurrection and Salt Processing and Fermentation
Scriptures| Ornamentation and Polytheism and Priesthood and Writing and Dualism
||
Monotheism| Scriptures and Karma
Veterinary| Mummification and Writing
Cuisine | Salt Processing and Irrigation and Folk Music and Folk Dance
Military Training | Bronze Working and Writing
Gardening | Irrigation and Taxonomy
Kemetism| Mummification and Polytheism and Cat Domestication
Hinduism| Karma and Scriptures and Folk Dance
Reincarnation| Karma
Yoruba|Reincarnation and Folk Music and Folk Dance
||
Ancient Medicine | Add Veterinary requirement
Aristocracy | Add Cuisine Requirement

 

[Yudishtira]

Here's how many of just those techs already represent specialization:
Pottery, Agriculture, Archery, Folk Dance, Folk Music, Oratory, Caste System, Mining, Exploration, Fungiculture, Apiculture, Candle Making, Trade, Fermentation, Orchards, Priesthood, Copper Working, Divination, Piracy, Masonry, Lead Working, Stargazing, Salt Processing, Sculpture, Metal Casting, Seafaring, Sericulture, Bronze Working, (Veterinary), Cuisine, Gardening, Ancient Medicine.

It is already quite adequately represented.

 

[Azurian]

Okay so we Remove it. Any other ones that you feel are blah?