C2C: Promotions

[Thunderbrd]

Naw... won't freak out. Just might lead to the ai making bad decisions is all.

 

[sp00n]

At least City Raider 5 is so deep into the tree, I doubt many AI units will go that far. As for the normal Blitz promotion, I think that's already pretty limited by the XML file, though I haven't specifically checked right now.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Not limited enough to keep units that have 1 move from selecting it - the ai is highly motivated to go after blitz capability in the assumption that they can make use of it.

 

[sp00n]

Could this routine then be tweaked? E.g. move the movement check to the AI promotion decision function instead of the general promotion availability (i.e. lower their motivation ).

Or maybe tweak the check with some other property, though I don't know which ones are available at that point besides the movement.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Well... actually... good idea. The check could go on the ai to see if the blitz tag is valued then remove the restriction overall. Not a bad plan. I'll put it on the list and get to it very soon then.

 

[ls612]

Could this routine then be tweaked? E.g. move the movement check to the AI promotion decision function instead of the general promotion availability (i.e. lower their motivation ).

Or maybe tweak the check with some other property, though I don't know which ones are available at that point besides the movement.

Yes it certainly could. I'll look in to doing that tomorrow.

 

[sp00n]

What is the "Enables this unit to attack until damaged" part of Initiative IV for a Field Commander supposed to do?
- The Field Commander himself still cannot attack.
- It doesn't seem to enable the Blitz ability to other units. Though I may have always run out of movement points each time so far.

 

[ls612]

What is the "Enables this unit to attack until damaged" part of Initiative IV for a Field Commander supposed to do?
- The Field Commander himself still cannot attack.
- It doesn't seem to enable the Blitz ability to other units. Though I may have always run out of movement points each time so far.

It may be bugged, that IIRC was an Afforess addition along with the other Field Commander stuff.

Also I'm going to be committing a Blitz Fix which will allow it to go on units with 1 movement and also allow the AI to understand how to use it properly.

 

[Thunderbrd]

What is the "Enables this unit to attack until damaged" part of Initiative IV for a Field Commander supposed to do?
- The Field Commander himself still cannot attack.
- It doesn't seem to enable the Blitz ability to other units. Though I may have always run out of movement points each time so far.

I'm happy to have ls take that task.

The first issue there is an ability called Onslaught. It's tag was repurposed since it was never completed in its development from Afforess. Apparently it does not work for Generals to give that ability to other units unless you see your units continuously repeating attacks until they're damaged (though they COULD just have simply been damaged and therefore the ability hasn't really come through as successful... but I didn't go out of my way to make sure it was functional for Commanders to grant the units in their stacks. (there may be some bugs with GC's granting ANY of their benefits to their stacks actually... an issue I haven't been able to solve yet does seem to pre-exist there.)

Normally Onslaught would be an ability on units themselves. It's now part of the combat mod but the tag was never removed from that promo and probably should be at this point since it was slightly repurposed and apparently ineffective for GCs.

Let me know, though, if you see a unit in the GC's stack attack more than once though - it won't take off any of its movement points to do so in that special case and it will repeat another attack without your further instruction if it was uninjured on the first attack, continuing to do so until it takes an injury of any kind. It's mostly useful against a very worn down stack (from air fire and collateral).

 

[Hydromancerx]

@ls612

With Canine Domestication tech being moved to require Hunting Tactics tech it kind of messes up the Canine promotions. So please change the following promotions ...

Pack Hunter II
Req Tech: Animal Husbandry

Racing Dog II
Req Tech: Animal Husbandry

Hunting Dog II
Req Tech: Animal Husbandry

Track Scent II
Req Tech: Animal Husbandry

Thanks!

 

[sp00n]

Let me know, though, if you see a unit in the GC's stack attack more than once though - it won't take off any of its movement points to do so in that special case and it will repeat another attack without your further instruction if it was uninjured on the first attack, continuing to do so until it takes an injury of any kind. It's mostly useful against a very worn down stack (from air fire and collateral).

That is definetly not working as of v27. I've had several fights where my attacking unit was undamaged, but could attack only once.
As for other promotions of the Field Commander, at least the strength does carry over. Not sure for chance of withdrawal though.

By the way, how would that Onslaught ability be working then? If it is a rapid succession of attacks without the ability to interact, wouldn't that also mean that I could suddenly lose a unit without having the chance to NOT perform the attack?
Afaik normally the combat system should should select the strongest defender for the attacking unit, however I've seen it multiple times now that suddenly my combat odds were actually worse for the same unit after destroying a defender with another unit.

Also, would each attack during that ability also grant XP?

//Edit
Also, how would this be visually presented if quick combat is enabled? I.e. you wouldn't really know unless you check the size of the defending stack or the combat log?


And another unrelated question: how large is actually the range for a Field Commander? I think it doesn't actually say so anywhere, and if it is more than the stack itself, it could be useful to display some sort of range indicator when selecting the unit (like for planes or for snipers).

 

[Thunderbrd]

That is definetly not working as of v27. I've had several fights where my attacking unit was undamaged, but could attack only once.
As for other promotions of the Field Commander, at least the strength does carry over. Not sure for chance of withdrawal though.

Ok... as I said, the tag was not re-designed with the Field Commander in mind so it was simply an oversight that it was never removed.

By the way, how would that Onslaught ability be working then? If it is a rapid succession of attacks without the ability to interact, wouldn't that also mean that I could suddenly lose a unit without having the chance to NOT perform the attack?
Afaik normally the combat system should should select the strongest defender for the attacking unit, however I've seen it multiple times now that suddenly my combat odds were actually worse for the same unit after destroying a defender with another unit.

Perhaps, but rather unlikely. If the stack can send up a defender that gets destroyed without damaging the attacker, its probably so wounded that it wouldn't have any defenders in it much stronger. The combat odds can increase with the next attack, like you say, and it does seem a bit strange that its doing that at times, but I think that may have something to do with the lead from behind option (RevDCM? not sure where that came from but it creates some wiggy results and is fairly complex to disseminate in code.) The ability is intended for fairly advanced and powerful units from Transhuman onward anyhow and there's so much air power involved and collateral that if your unit can go unharmed in any fight at that stage, it wouldn't be facing a stack that could then get that kind of sucker punch in thereafter.

Also, would each attack during that ability also grant XP?

Yes.

Also, how would this be visually presented if quick combat is enabled? I.e. you wouldn't really know unless you check the size of the defending stack or the combat log?

If you're unit tears through a number of enemy units with the one attack, you'd see a string of combat messages flash across the message bar at the top of the main screen unless you have found an option I'm unaware of to turn those combat messages off. You'd also see the enemy stack flicker through the various units that are being destroyed (or your own if its happening to you...) And yes, the combat log is helpful if you want more info on exactly how it all went down.

And another unrelated question: how large is actually the range for a Field Commander? I think it doesn't actually say so anywhere, and if it is more than the stack itself, it could be useful to display some sort of range indicator when selecting the unit (like for planes or for snipers).

I'm not sure. I think its just the stack itself and only the first so many units (# of Command Points?) in that stack that go to fight in any given round but I've never looked into it enough to know that for sure. I've never found the text that should be explaining that better either.

 

[Faustmouse]

I'm not sure. I think its just the stack itself and only the first so many units (# of Command Points?) in that stack that go to fight in any given round but I've never looked into it enough to know that for sure. I've never found the text that should be explaining that better either.

It's normal range is just the plot of the commander, but if you choose those 2 Promos (command and... not sure, maxbe tactics 4) it gain 2 range. So at least a fat-cross, maybe even a 5x5 aera around the commander. You can test it by giving the commander the +str promos and look where your units still get those boni (they are shown in the combat odds). And yeah, only as many fights as you have command-points are supported by the GC.

 

[sp00n]

So I did some tests now with the Field Commander.

His initial range is own tile +1, e.g. a 3x3 square. Promoting him to Operations II makes this a BFC, e.g. own tile +2. It's not a square, as in 5x5, but the typical cross now.
Finally, the Operations III promotion makes this a larger cross, e.g. own tile +3, but still in cross dimension. I assume this is the same as for the new larger city cross (which I haven't reached yet in my games, so I'm not 100% sure).

I've added an image which should help illustrate the range.



I've also tested the "Control Points" mechanic you mentioned, of which i was completely unaware before. And it's correct, as soon the (initially 5) points are consumed, no unit is profiting from the "aura" anymore. I do not know how defending is handled in such a case, e.g. if the points do regenerate before the enemies attack, or after (but as far as I remember, e.g. healing is calculated AFTER the other players had their turn, so this would indicate that the bonuses are NOT added!).

The "Control Range" can be extended with promotions up to 25 points, and can be seen by the "CP: x" and "Control: x" property of the Field Commander's unit tooltip.
The other entry, "CR: x" is the current Control Range, e.g. the area of control, which I've explained above.

This makes the Field Commander somewhat weaker than I anticipated it to be. Regarding informations, I actually had to refer to Google to find anything at all, and even then it was very sparse (mainly just "Great Generals can now be Field Commanders, yay!").
There really needs to be a Civilopedia entry for this unit, explaining the whole mechanic. I just assumed them to work similar to Civ5 without any further knowledge.

And I assume the "Onslaught" part will be removed from Initiative IV? My testing clearly showed it to be not working right now.



Now, regarding the weird combat odds I've experienced, I've actually made a video of that now!


Link to video.

Here you can see how the combat odds go from 60.88% eventually down to 38.55%, or more detailed:

WIN LOSE RETREAT
60.88% 19.36% 17.6%
59.15% 22.47% 18.4%
58.46% 22.85% 18.7%
38.55% 33.80% 27.7%

After reading up on what Lead from Behind actually does, it could be that the Guard unit is considered to be more "worth" than the previous units (due to Policing?) and hence isn't immediately chosen as the first defender. Although that would be (and is) a pretty bad choice. It doesn't seem he also has a healing promotion, which could explain that behaviour.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I'd like to invite you to write that civilopedia entry as you seem very good at explaining it all. (and the graphic is priceless... @anyone who would know: can we include that in a civilopedia entry?)

I'd also like to take a deeper look into the mechanic enough to maybe enable onslaught from a command perspective as well (most commander tags are the same as normal unit tags - just is handled in such a way as to spread out the ability to the commanded units rather than just having it for themselves. So it shouldn't be too tough to figure out how to adapt the tag ) It's an appropriate ability for them at that level I think.

As for the defense choices... actually, there's some brilliance in it. It buys time which can mean everything in a city defense.

You're the defender: your enemy strikes with his toughest units first. So you send the fodder up to damage them (they won't heal in the field like you can behind your walls - especially when your trap buildings are potentially adding damage to them every turn to counter any healing that might be taking place.) Then, just when they've used their strength in overwhelming attacks against less powerful units, their weaker attackers come up and must now face your toughest - your defenses stand for the whole round whereas the other way around, you would've lost all your troops as their strongest attackers would've defeated your strongest defenders but in this case were wasted on the fodder instead. You produce more troops the next round and the process repeats itself, further wearing down the attacker until you can actually launch an attack at his stack and eradicate it.

And yeah, the policing may well be a part of that - Koshling has worked on AI pretty extensively and maybe his fingerprint is on some of that now too... but I still think mostly it has to do with the Lead From Behind counter-intuitive nature of Best Defender and Best Attacker selections.

 

[strategyonly]

but I still think mostly it has to do with the Lead From Behind counter-intuitive nature of Best Defender and Best Attacker selections.

Does ANYONE even play this way?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Good question... I'm not even sure what the default is set at right now.

 

[sp00n]

Does ANYONE even play this way?

There's a setting for this?
Haven't found it on game start, nor in the game options.


As for writing the Civilopedia entry, sure, why not?
We'd just need an entry for the actual Field Commander, as currently it doesn't even exist.

I'd also still like to know a few things, namely
a) do defending units benefit from the aura as well?
b) does this subtract one Control Point?
c) do they still benefit if all Control Points have been used up (this would be the major question)?
d) at which rate do the Field Commanders gain experience (compared to normal units)?
e) does the Control Range also affect the range in which the Field Commander gains experience?

// Edit
Ok, did some more tests.
d) The Commander seems to gain 1 XP for each victory or withdrawal, no matter how many XP the attacking unit gains (tested at least up to 2.4). There's one big exception to this, if Battlefield Promotions are enabled, and the attacking unit gains one during battle, the Field Commander gains 2 XP for that. He does not benefit if Battlefield Promotions are disabled and the promotion is awared manually in the next round.
Additionally, the Field Commander only gains XP as long as his Control Points are not used up, i.e. as long as a unit benefits from his aura (and likewise, he does not gain XP if a unit from outside his aura attacks an enemy which is inside, because the attacking unit did not originally benefit from it).

e) Yes it does.


Can anybody think of a way to test c)?


And lastly I would need some native speaker to look over the text I've written to iron out any possible stupidities I've included.

 

[Faustmouse]

As for c), you could find an attacker that is around twice as strong as your defender and try it with and without commander. if you get all the +str etc proms you must be much stronger than normal.

Or simply: just give the AI a promoted commander and check if you attack the unit

 

[Koshling]

There's a setting for this?
Haven't found it on game start, nor in the game options.


As for writing the Civilopedia entry, sure, why not?
We'd just need an entry for the actual Field Commander, as currently it doesn't even exist.

I'd also still like to know a few things, namely
a) do defending units benefit from the aura as well?
b) does this subtract one Control Point?
c) do they still benefit if all Control Points have been used up (this would be the major question)?
.

a) Yes
b) Yes if the defending unit actually gets attacked and so uses the benefit
c) No

It's best to think of it not so much as units benefitting, as individual fights benefitting. Each fight (between an attacking unit and a defending unit) that is within the control range will receive the benefits if there are any control points left. Any such fight will decrement the control points when it happens.

Also if multiple field commanders are in range the 'best' one will be used preferentially - you get its benefits NOT the combination of all in-range commanders, and only the one chosen has its control points decremented. This means if you have 2 commanders present the best one will be used until its control points are exhausted, then the next best, and so on.