Can we have an option that eliminates turns of Anarchy?

[Snofru1]

By changing iAnarchy on all civics to 0 you'll take out anarchy entirely.

That´s not true! Maybe a bug?

My counting gave the following results (including Cristo Redentor, Snail speed):

55 x iAnarchyLength=0 means 4 turns of Anarchy in my game
65 x iAnarchyLength=1 means 5 turns of Anarchy in my game
9 x iAnarchyLength=2 means 7 turns of Anarchy in my game
2 x iAnarchyLength=3 means 8 turns of Anarchy in my game

Even when iAnarchyLength is zero I still get 4 turns of Anarchy, e.g. with the Garbage civics which are all 0!

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

There is also an anarchy element in leader traits.

 

[Snofru1]

I have tried to change the iAnarchyLength values to -1 and it worked. Now it don´t have Anarchy times anymore.

It behaves a little bit strange, though, as it as first indicates 1 turn of Anarchy if you only change 1 civic (0 turns if it is more than 1 civic) but after finishing the turn there is no more Anarchy.

 

[Thunderbrd]

That´s not true! Maybe a bug?

My counting gave the following results (including Cristo Redentor, Snail speed):

55 x iAnarchyLength=0 means 4 turns of Anarchy in my game
65 x iAnarchyLength=1 means 5 turns of Anarchy in my game
9 x iAnarchyLength=2 means 7 turns of Anarchy in my game
2 x iAnarchyLength=3 means 8 turns of Anarchy in my game

Even when iAnarchyLength is zero I still get 4 turns of Anarchy, e.g. with the Garbage civics which are all 0!

I have tried to change the iAnarchyLength values to -1 and it worked. Now it don´t have Anarchy times anymore.

It behaves a little bit strange, though, as it as first indicates 1 turn of Anarchy if you only change 1 civic (0 turns if it is more than 1 civic) but after finishing the turn there is no more Anarchy.

hmm... I'll have to check the code to see how it ends up with a greater than 0 value when on 0.

 

[0100010]

Once upon a time there was talk of a dark age. Maybe this idea can be revived albeit modified, a mini "age" that exist only for the duration of the 'anarchy' period. Similar to what had already been suggested here, but this could at least be a avenue to look into in which to implement it.

If a player happen to enter a golden age while in anarchy/dark age then the anarchy should instantly end.

 

[Nevets_]

A few ideas to help the current anarchy system without changing it too much:

Give great people a mini-golden age ability that uses up just one person but gives you 2-4 turns of golden age (based on gamespeed), so you can basically 'buy' a free civic change with a GP. And in the late game when you run out of great spies/doctors you can still use your other GP for golden ages.

It would be cool if rather than civics having an anarchy 'cost' to adopt, they were rated on an ideological scale within their category, and the difference on the scale between the civic you are leaving and the one you are adopting determines the turns of anarchy it costs. So lets say the economy civics are rated on a Unregulated <---> Regulated scale, so switching from a civic like Trade (+2 Unregulated) to Free Market (+3 Unregulated) would be a minor cost, but from Trade (+2 Unregulated) to Guilds (+1 Regulated) would be high. This way changing your empire completely takes a long time, but minor upgrades are quick. It would be even better if the anarchy cost was calculated so that small steps happen instantly but large ones take even more time, something like:
AnarchyTime = (CivicIdealogyChange - 1) * CivicIdealogyChange
So switching between two civics that are ideologically similar (1 point difference) happens instantly, 2 point difference is 2 turn of anarchy, 3 point difference is 6 turns, 4 point difference is 12 turns, etc.

I think the biggest problem with anarchy right now is the AI's don't know how to handle it, and large AI empires get huge +% anarchy times from their cities. My current game had the 50 city Korean empire have a 30+ turn anarchy on Snail, during which they lost about 5 conquered cities to rebellion. Up until this point they were the top civ and had beaten me to alot of wonders and techs, and afterwards they never caught back up. I think if the higher difficulties gave the AI's an anarchy handicap it would help. Something like -10% time per difficulty level.

 

[Snofru1]

Once upon a time there was talk of a dark age. Maybe this idea can be revived albeit modified, a mini "age" that exist only for the duration of the 'anarchy' period. Similar to what had already been suggested here, but this could at least be a avenue to look into in which to implement it.

If a player happen to enter a golden age while in anarchy/dark age then the anarchy should instantly end.

I like this idea !

 

[Faustmouse]

It would be cool if rather than civics having an anarchy 'cost' to adopt, they were rated on an ideological scale within their category, and the difference on the scale between the civic you are leaving and the one you are adopting determines the turns of anarchy it costs. So lets say the economy civics are rated on a Unregulated <---> Regulated scale, so switching from a civic like Trade (+2 Unregulated) to Free Market (+3 Unregulated) would be a minor cost, but from Trade (+2 Unregulated) to Guilds (+1 Regulated) would be high. This way changing your empire completely takes a long time, but minor upgrades are quick. It would be even better if the anarchy cost was calculated so that small steps happen instantly but large ones take even more time, something like:
AnarchyTime = (CivicIdealogyChange - 1) * CivicIdealogyChange
So switching between two civics that are ideologically similar (1 point difference) happens instantly, 2 point difference is 2 turn of anarchy, 3 point difference is 6 turns, 4 point difference is 12 turns, etc.

I think the biggest problem with anarchy right now is the AI's don't know how to handle it, and large AI empires get huge +% anarchy times from their cities. My current game had the 50 city Korean empire have a 30+ turn anarchy on Snail, during which they lost about 5 conquered cities to rebellion. Up until this point they were the top civ and had beaten me to alot of wonders and techs, and afterwards they never caught back up. I think if the higher difficulties gave the AI's an anarchy handicap it would help. Something like -10% time per difficulty level.

I like THIS idea Particulary the bonus for the AI. Anarchy is one of the things that cripples the AI most....

 

[platyping]

Golden age always end anarchy instantly

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Alternately run Drudism of Ngaul with Human Sacrifice and just sacrifice a captive - instant golden age.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Both the Dark Age replacement for some anarchy periods and the ideology evaluation concepts are good but will take a lot of work to implement so would be quite a long time before they could be developed. The dark age concept would probably be closer on the agenda as it has more applicability to other functions but I'm not sure if it's too great a mess to clean up from Afforess's current code relics or not. Would take some evaluation.

 

[Snofru1]

I have tried to change the iAnarchyLength values to -1 and it worked. Now it don´t have Anarchy times anymore.

It behaves a little bit strange, though, as it as first indicates 1 turn of Anarchy if you only change 1 civic (0 turns if it is more than 1 civic) but after finishing the turn there is no more Anarchy.

Since a few days this doesn´t work anymore. Changing iAnarchyLength to -1 or to 0 will not lead to eliminated Anarchy times anymore. In fact, the Anarchy times increase quickly in my ongoing game. I am in the Renaissance era now and the minimum Anarchy length is 16 turns (including the fact that I have given myself the Cristo Redentor by worldbuilder)!

 

[Faustmouse]

I'd guess that the adjustments TB made for the Education Effects add up. They don't count the highest of them all, but summ up all of them. Building 1, Building 2 etc per city, and then all cities together. This will come up as a very high anarchy modifier.

 

[Thunderbrd]

My changes should only be a modifier, not a way that would change the base. So these last few posts got me to look into the code - I'd noted earlier I felt I needed to due to some unexpected behavior. Apparently, we had a base value being added from a total of #of Cities * a mapsize value divided by 100. This calculation could come up with a value over 1 past a certain number of cities which would be applied to all civic changes regardless of what the civic itself was set to. I've not disabled this mathematics unconditionally but have done so if the total up to that point isn't already greater than 0 so that when we say we don't want any anarchy on a given civic, we can mean it.

My modifiers CAN add up if you're highly educated - each education auto building is a +/- 1% anarchy duration for the empire so 30 cities with 4 positive education buildings can run +120% in and of itself. We may now be able to use some more mundane buildings that can influence anarchy to counter this I think. Maybe upper level city administration buildings? Mind you, you CAN also eliminate anarchy time by making sure you're people are stupid and undereducated... of course there's some nasty side effects. lol

 

[Snofru1]

My changes should only be a modifier, not a way that would change the base. So these last few posts got me to look into the code - I'd noted earlier I felt I needed to due to some unexpected behavior. Apparently, we had a base value being added from a total of #of Cities * a mapsize value divided by 100. This calculation could come up with a value over 1 past a certain number of cities which would be applied to all civic changes regardless of what the civic itself was set to. I've not disabled this mathematics unconditionally but have done so if the total up to that point isn't already greater than 0 so that when we say we don't want any anarchy on a given civic, we can mean it.

My modifiers CAN add up if you're highly educated - each education auto building is a +/- 1% anarchy duration for the empire so 30 cities with 4 positive education buildings can run +120% in and of itself. We may now be able to use some more mundane buildings that can influence anarchy to counter this I think. Maybe upper level city administration buildings? Mind you, you CAN also eliminate anarchy time by making sure you're people are stupid and undereducated... of course there's some nasty side effects. lol

Thank you, I understand the system a little bit better now. I do have a big empire (>60 cities) and my people are highly educted (at least in my about 30 "older" cities). But this means that I have reached a minimum Anarchy time of 25 turns now (late Renaissance).

I think you have overdone it.

And still would be very thankful for a hint how I could eliminate the Anarchy time totally...

 

[Thunderbrd]

Thank you, I understand the system a little bit better now. I do have a big empire (>60 cities) and my people are highly educted (at least in my about 30 "older" cities). But this means that I have reached a minimum Anarchy time of 25 turns now (late Renaissance).

I think you have overdone it.

And still would be very thankful for a hint how I could eliminate the Anarchy time totally...

It probably does overdo it for larger nations and underdoes it for smaller ones - the better result would be if I could get a player level value on education nationwide and generate a modifier from that but I'm not sure how to work with player level properties yet and I'm also not sure enough development has taken place on that front to enable me to include such a modifier from it. I could see auto-traits (as opposed to buildings) being given and rescinded on player level compiled property values perhaps. That would be cool and useful for a lot more than this. But we have no UI for player level property displays for tracking where you're at. (Not that I'm aware of anyhow...)

Theoretically, you should be able to find the civics you've put at -1 (from here 0 should be sufficient as well unless another global value I saw but didn't track down the value of increases all civics by +1) should have no anarchy time at all after my next commit. You'll have to let me know for sure though.

 

[JosEPh_II]

You can use your spies to destroy the Castle Keep. It increases the revolt rate by 200%.

What if you're not usinf REV?

Anarchy is rather redundant now that we have longer games, no matter which kind of anarchy you are experiencing. I argue wit 45* in AND about Anarchy lengths. You think C2C's are bad.

1 turn is usually more than sufficient and I will concede 2 turns for Multiple Civic changes. But not more than 2 in any circumstance.

JosEPh

 

[Snofru1]

Theoretically, you should be able to find the civics you've put at -1 (from here 0 should be sufficient as well unless another global value I saw but didn't track down the value of increases all civics by +1) should have no anarchy time at all after my next commit. You'll have to let me know for sure though.

Thank you, I will inform you of my observations as soon as possible.

BTW: Currently I don´t see any difference between 0 and -1.

 

[Harrier]

An idea I have that may be similar to Nevets, is to give each civic an anarchy value, from -1.0 upwards.
The -1.0 to 0.0 benefit the population, not the ruler.

If you choose more than one civic change at the same time, add the values up. Then use the ABS() value to be the number of turns of anarchy.

Less than 1 equals no anarchy, 1.0 to 1.9 = 1 turn etc.

So civics like Garbage can be given a low, 0, or -0 rating.
i.e. If dumping in sea and no coastal city = -0.5, if you have a coastal city = +0.4.

Examples:

1. one change 1:
Garbage in sea (you have coastal city) = +0.4.
TOTAL = +0.4 ABS = 0.
Result 0 turns anarchy.

2. one change 2:
Military +2.5 (maybe conscription!) I know this is not a civic. Example only.
TOTAL = +2.5 ABS = 2
Result 2 turns anarchy.

3. Multiple changes 1:
Government change + 1.5
Rule +0.4
Society -0.7 ( minus because it benefits population, not just the ruler)
TOTAL = 1.2 ABS = 1
Result 1 turns anarchy.

4. Multiple changes 2:
Government change + 1.5
Rule +0.4
Society -0.7 (see above)
Military +2.5 (maybe conscription! see above)
TOTAL = 3.7 ABS = 3
Result 3 turns anarchy.

You could then expand this concept, to when you can select next civic change.

0 turns anarchy, next civic change after 2 (or 1) turns.
1 turns anarchy, next civic change after 3 (or 2) turns.
2 turns anarchy, next civic change after 4 (or 3) turns.
3 turns anarchy, next civic change after 5 (or 4) turns. etc.

Maybe put a cap on the number of turns of anarchy - 5 max in 1st era, then up by, example 5 (you choose the value) in each following era. So if 10 era's in the game the maximum anarchy is 50 turns in the last era.

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

The spiritual used to give zero turns of anarchy. It was basically all it did give. What happened to it?