Nintz
King of the Britons
I didn't even send orders that turn though. The conscripts were just left over from the previous turn. 
Capto Iugulum: 1920 - 1939
- Thread starter EQandcivfanatic
- Start date
Jehoshua
Catholic
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2009
- Messages
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Statement from the Holy See on the Aquitanian Question
-
The Holy See urges Occitania, naturally, to address and consider in charity and compassion the legitimate desires of the basque minority in Aquitane and to engage in dialogue with legitimate expressions of Aquitanian Basque interests. We also urge, along the lines the Holy See previously noted regarding a unified french identity, Occitania to embrace the basque contribution to Occitanian national life as an integral and treasured, rather than ostracised, component of national life and to take measures to avoid any cultural oppression should it be occuring.
At the same time however, we would urge all sovereign parties, particularly Catalonia and Euskadi, to respect the sovereign territorial rights of the Occitanian state as accepted by international consensus and customary diplomatic law, and as such refrain from attacking Occitania in solidarity with, or actively supporting in other ways militant and subversive forces that could invoke regional warfare, something that is not in anyones interests and which would only lead to innocent, namely the people of Aquitane and the broader region, bearing the greatest cost as history attests is the case in such wars (examples being the situation amongst the Savoyards), in the near future.
~ Secretary for Relations with States
-
The Holy See urges Occitania, naturally, to address and consider in charity and compassion the legitimate desires of the basque minority in Aquitane and to engage in dialogue with legitimate expressions of Aquitanian Basque interests. We also urge, along the lines the Holy See previously noted regarding a unified french identity, Occitania to embrace the basque contribution to Occitanian national life as an integral and treasured, rather than ostracised, component of national life and to take measures to avoid any cultural oppression should it be occuring.
At the same time however, we would urge all sovereign parties, particularly Catalonia and Euskadi, to respect the sovereign territorial rights of the Occitanian state as accepted by international consensus and customary diplomatic law, and as such refrain from attacking Occitania in solidarity with, or actively supporting in other ways militant and subversive forces that could invoke regional warfare, something that is not in anyones interests and which would only lead to innocent, namely the people of Aquitane and the broader region, bearing the greatest cost as history attests is the case in such wars (examples being the situation amongst the Savoyards), in the near future.
~ Secretary for Relations with States
Terrance888
Discord Reigns
And that you can't trust Armenians, even if they have no clue what they're doing.
OOC: Visigothic Aquitaine is the best. The only "evil" thing I did was to crush a religious revolt, unlike the rest of you bastards :3. Heck, I specifically ordered limited burning and pillaging other than the three days of booty-taking after taking a non-surrenduring locale. It is also a center of Latin Learning, although I never spent concrete EP on it. Anyway:
What confuses me is that Aquitaine is said to have "gained a sizable Spanish minority" over the course of Spanish rule, iirc. So now we have the "French" majority or predominant group, a "sizable Spanish minority" which could also be quite predominant, and something of a Basque/Aquitanian Nationalistic Movement?
Mhm. Aquitanian? Aquitainian? Aquitite? Aquitainish? Aquitanish?
Also, a fun fact I found randomly. Occitania comes from "Land of Oc" where they say "oc" instead of "oui". Amusingly, Languedoc means the EXACT SAME THING. Languedoc = Occitania. :3
theDright
King
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2011
- Messages
- 605
@Milarqui
I'm interested to see your approach to all the regionalism. What are your thoughts IRL on the topic?
@EQ
I'm not surprised at all the regionalism in Spain and France ITTL, but, besides the success of Germany and Italy, is the basis for their unity? With Germany and Italy so decentralized in CI from 1830 to 1910, I would have thought that the important issues of what is the official German and Italian wouldn't even have begun. German from Berlin and German from Bavaria aren't really intelligible.
I'm interested to see your approach to all the regionalism. What are your thoughts IRL on the topic?
@EQ
I'm not surprised at all the regionalism in Spain and France ITTL, but, besides the success of Germany and Italy, is the basis for their unity? With Germany and Italy so decentralized in CI from 1830 to 1910, I would have thought that the important issues of what is the official German and Italian wouldn't even have begun. German from Berlin and German from Bavaria aren't really intelligible.
Immaculate
unerring
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2003
- Messages
- 7,623
From: President Ricard Rosa of Catalonia
To: Occitania
CCed: Whomever cares
We have no intentions of war between the Euskadi, Galicia, Catalonia military defensive bloc and Occitania. Our interests in the people of Aquitane is for a brother wrongfully held against his will. We only wish that you allow them to choose their own fate.
NOT DIPLOMACY
On an unrelated note, in parts of Barcelona, these posters and others like it have begun to appear.
"Do you remember?
We do."
The Catalonia government has been quick to take them down but they are thought to be from extremists of the 'Freedom for All' party. Importantly, they demonstrate some of the popular sentiment towards the Aquitane situation. This party uses shock tactics like the posters shown here to galvanize support for their ideology and to pressure the people to speak out against what they call the 'imprisonment and occupation of our brothers by the people who gassed and massacred them'.
The Catalonian government has not spoken publicly regarding their movement, the posters, or the sentiment beyond saying that the posters are not their doing and that they are 'doing the best they can to secure the PEACEFUL liberation of Aquitane'.
To: Occitania
CCed: Whomever cares
We have no intentions of war between the Euskadi, Galicia, Catalonia military defensive bloc and Occitania. Our interests in the people of Aquitane is for a brother wrongfully held against his will. We only wish that you allow them to choose their own fate.
****
NOT DIPLOMACY
On an unrelated note, in parts of Barcelona, these posters and others like it have begun to appear.
"Do you remember?
We do."
The Catalonia government has been quick to take them down but they are thought to be from extremists of the 'Freedom for All' party. Importantly, they demonstrate some of the popular sentiment towards the Aquitane situation. This party uses shock tactics like the posters shown here to galvanize support for their ideology and to pressure the people to speak out against what they call the 'imprisonment and occupation of our brothers by the people who gassed and massacred them'.
The Catalonian government has not spoken publicly regarding their movement, the posters, or the sentiment beyond saying that the posters are not their doing and that they are 'doing the best they can to secure the PEACEFUL liberation of Aquitane'.
Norman Statement on Republic Of Aquitaine
The Normans oppose any attempts to destabilize what has largely been a peaceful transition from the region. That being said we will rely on the Occitania to take the lead on the issue. Our government fully trusts Occitania to handle the situation with responsibility and keeping the peace as a foremost objective.
Norman Announcement on Confederate Colonial Dispute
The issue has been peacefully resolve between Poitou, Normandy, and the Empire of Burgundy. The Empire of Burgundy has already signed the treaty and we are awaiting the official support of the Poitou government.
Post Confederate Colonial Status Agreement
1.) All Norman and Poitou citizens who own business or properties will be given special status. They can continue to operate and all prior economic arrangements will be preserved.
2.) All Norman and Poitou citizens will be given special trade status with their home countries allowing them to operate under similar free trade statuses that currently exist between Confederation countries.
3.) Normandy and Poitou drop all territorial claims to the former colonies of the Confederation.
The Normans oppose any attempts to destabilize what has largely been a peaceful transition from the region. That being said we will rely on the Occitania to take the lead on the issue. Our government fully trusts Occitania to handle the situation with responsibility and keeping the peace as a foremost objective.
Norman Announcement on Confederate Colonial Dispute
The issue has been peacefully resolve between Poitou, Normandy, and the Empire of Burgundy. The Empire of Burgundy has already signed the treaty and we are awaiting the official support of the Poitou government.
Post Confederate Colonial Status Agreement
1.) All Norman and Poitou citizens who own business or properties will be given special status. They can continue to operate and all prior economic arrangements will be preserved.
2.) All Norman and Poitou citizens will be given special trade status with their home countries allowing them to operate under similar free trade statuses that currently exist between Confederation countries.
3.) Normandy and Poitou drop all territorial claims to the former colonies of the Confederation.
J.K. Stockholme
Right Opposition
From Occitania
Regarding Aquitaine
Occitania would like to thank our French allies and the Holy See, for their open support of our right to sovereignty on what is strictly a domestic issue.
Our government genuinely questions the actual support for any plebiscite within Aquitaine itself, and five obscure, unelected men taking the headlines, declaring themselves a "republic", hardly diminishes our skepticism. Catalonia's sponsorship of this pretend government is disgraceful and taken by Occitania to be an aggressive attempt to encourage separatism through showmanship. How can we possibly take Catalonia's actions as anything other than a direct security threat, if they are setting up governments ON BEHALF OF ENTIRELY OTHER PEOPLES, in a region, which is not only not in their jurisdiction, but distinctly far from them both historically and literally. Should Occitania go out and find five Pro-Spanish unification dissidents in Catalonia, and setup a "Spanish Province of Catalonia in-exile"? This would not only be extraordinarily strange, but also completely inappropriate for us given that this would be the domain of Catalonia and Spain. This would, in short, be an attack on the rights of Catalonia to make its own decisions.
However, it is posed by some, Occitania is oppressive and hateful towards minorities - if you believe the posters, we even use gas attacks on minorities every Sunday. Wouldn't therefore any measure be valid to "liberate" the Spanish and Basque people in Aquitaine? We emphasis our sarcasm here, because it is hard to contain our utter fury at this insult.
You could not find a more clear cut case of the antithesis of oppression in this world. The government of Occitania, under the leadership of our monarchy and the party in power at the time, put considerable capital towards guaranteeing linguistic services, regional autonomy, and smooth legal integration. Unlike the auto-racists in Catalonia, we here in Occitania do not assume the existence of a minority, necessarily means the existence of oppression. As any competent person is capable of verifying, you cannot find any serious evidence of oppression - with the most recent articles only asserting there is some kind of nebulous "oppression", but not actually materializing what this vague thing truly is. Find police brutality, find government segregation, find racist building laws, we dare you, and then you'll have our attention that there is a problem. Occitania is the model nation in being fair and just to its peoples, regardless of their identities, because they are human beings - not Spanish, Basque or Occitan - humans, who have free elections for local and national government, free press to issue their requests to the government, and individual liberty to live without racism and oppression.
Shall we then suppose that, in obvious contradiction to the evidence, there is actively negative prejudicial relations between French and Spanish and Basque people in Aquitaine. How would a referendum solve this? Aquitaine is about as many parts French as it is Spanish and Basque. This is the exact scenario where the leadership of another, larger power, is absolutely necessary to preventing destabilizing ethnic conflict. What Catalonia and the residents of Aquitaine in this hypothetical scenario should be asking for, is more intervention by the Occitanian government to protect minority rights! Which we are only too happy to provide, because Occitanians take pride in their enlightened government and their tolerance and good behaviour towards cultures that are different than their own.
Now, with this out of the way, allow Occitania to promise to the world that we will make investigations into the degree of prejudice against the Spanish and Basque minorities in Aquitaine, however not because of Catalonia's misguided and utterly shameful aggravation of the situation, but because of the numerous articles written by residents which attest to prejudice. The results of this will determine the degree to which we may introduce more autonomy or equality programs.
To guarantee there is no confusion in this issue, and that secession of an equal parts French as Spanish and Basque region is impossible, we must delve into this often misused term "the will of the people". Let us pose another hypothetical, where, despite the evidence, there is oppression, and despite the illogical conclusion independence of an ethnically diverse region will somehow solve the problems of the ethnicities in the region (in which half of the population identify with the larger union of Occitania), a referendum were to be undertaken instead of government intervention and support. What would constitute the will of the people? Evidently if the referendum only required 50% plus 1 ballot, this would be a tyranny of the slim majority, and would be inadequate in constituting the will of the people. So while we could argue whether 60, 70, or 80 percent truly makes up the will of the people, obviously it would need to be a high proportion of the population. This would mean even with the full vote of the Spanish and Basque populations, a referendum would only barely meet the first proposed 50% plus 1 requirement. Would a newly formed country likely become stable and prosperous, or dismally broken and divided, if it began its history by only a slim majority of support for its independence, along ethnically polarized lines?
Occitania doesn't believe this ethnically polarized scenario exists. We genuinely believe most self-identified Spanish and Basque people residing in Aquitaine actually prefer continuing their positive working relationship with the government of Occitania, because it has succeeded in protecting them from civil war, conflict, and racial division - on top of the fact that Basque and Spanish culture contributes to Occitan culture, and vice versa, as the Holy See has so kindly and accurately stated.
If our investigation proves we've failed to prevent ethnic prejudice from hurting people's lives in Aquitaine, this is only reason for more intensive government solutions to inequality, not more divisive and essentially racist ones. We will obviously consider more autonomy, but our direct supervision and continued sovereignty over the region of Aquitaine in this situation is morally necessary to its peaceful future.
Regarding Aquitaine
Occitania would like to thank our French allies and the Holy See, for their open support of our right to sovereignty on what is strictly a domestic issue.
Our government genuinely questions the actual support for any plebiscite within Aquitaine itself, and five obscure, unelected men taking the headlines, declaring themselves a "republic", hardly diminishes our skepticism. Catalonia's sponsorship of this pretend government is disgraceful and taken by Occitania to be an aggressive attempt to encourage separatism through showmanship. How can we possibly take Catalonia's actions as anything other than a direct security threat, if they are setting up governments ON BEHALF OF ENTIRELY OTHER PEOPLES, in a region, which is not only not in their jurisdiction, but distinctly far from them both historically and literally. Should Occitania go out and find five Pro-Spanish unification dissidents in Catalonia, and setup a "Spanish Province of Catalonia in-exile"? This would not only be extraordinarily strange, but also completely inappropriate for us given that this would be the domain of Catalonia and Spain. This would, in short, be an attack on the rights of Catalonia to make its own decisions.
However, it is posed by some, Occitania is oppressive and hateful towards minorities - if you believe the posters, we even use gas attacks on minorities every Sunday. Wouldn't therefore any measure be valid to "liberate" the Spanish and Basque people in Aquitaine? We emphasis our sarcasm here, because it is hard to contain our utter fury at this insult.
You could not find a more clear cut case of the antithesis of oppression in this world. The government of Occitania, under the leadership of our monarchy and the party in power at the time, put considerable capital towards guaranteeing linguistic services, regional autonomy, and smooth legal integration. Unlike the auto-racists in Catalonia, we here in Occitania do not assume the existence of a minority, necessarily means the existence of oppression. As any competent person is capable of verifying, you cannot find any serious evidence of oppression - with the most recent articles only asserting there is some kind of nebulous "oppression", but not actually materializing what this vague thing truly is. Find police brutality, find government segregation, find racist building laws, we dare you, and then you'll have our attention that there is a problem. Occitania is the model nation in being fair and just to its peoples, regardless of their identities, because they are human beings - not Spanish, Basque or Occitan - humans, who have free elections for local and national government, free press to issue their requests to the government, and individual liberty to live without racism and oppression.
Shall we then suppose that, in obvious contradiction to the evidence, there is actively negative prejudicial relations between French and Spanish and Basque people in Aquitaine. How would a referendum solve this? Aquitaine is about as many parts French as it is Spanish and Basque. This is the exact scenario where the leadership of another, larger power, is absolutely necessary to preventing destabilizing ethnic conflict. What Catalonia and the residents of Aquitaine in this hypothetical scenario should be asking for, is more intervention by the Occitanian government to protect minority rights! Which we are only too happy to provide, because Occitanians take pride in their enlightened government and their tolerance and good behaviour towards cultures that are different than their own.
Now, with this out of the way, allow Occitania to promise to the world that we will make investigations into the degree of prejudice against the Spanish and Basque minorities in Aquitaine, however not because of Catalonia's misguided and utterly shameful aggravation of the situation, but because of the numerous articles written by residents which attest to prejudice. The results of this will determine the degree to which we may introduce more autonomy or equality programs.
To guarantee there is no confusion in this issue, and that secession of an equal parts French as Spanish and Basque region is impossible, we must delve into this often misused term "the will of the people". Let us pose another hypothetical, where, despite the evidence, there is oppression, and despite the illogical conclusion independence of an ethnically diverse region will somehow solve the problems of the ethnicities in the region (in which half of the population identify with the larger union of Occitania), a referendum were to be undertaken instead of government intervention and support. What would constitute the will of the people? Evidently if the referendum only required 50% plus 1 ballot, this would be a tyranny of the slim majority, and would be inadequate in constituting the will of the people. So while we could argue whether 60, 70, or 80 percent truly makes up the will of the people, obviously it would need to be a high proportion of the population. This would mean even with the full vote of the Spanish and Basque populations, a referendum would only barely meet the first proposed 50% plus 1 requirement. Would a newly formed country likely become stable and prosperous, or dismally broken and divided, if it began its history by only a slim majority of support for its independence, along ethnically polarized lines?
Occitania doesn't believe this ethnically polarized scenario exists. We genuinely believe most self-identified Spanish and Basque people residing in Aquitaine actually prefer continuing their positive working relationship with the government of Occitania, because it has succeeded in protecting them from civil war, conflict, and racial division - on top of the fact that Basque and Spanish culture contributes to Occitan culture, and vice versa, as the Holy See has so kindly and accurately stated.
If our investigation proves we've failed to prevent ethnic prejudice from hurting people's lives in Aquitaine, this is only reason for more intensive government solutions to inequality, not more divisive and essentially racist ones. We will obviously consider more autonomy, but our direct supervision and continued sovereignty over the region of Aquitaine in this situation is morally necessary to its peaceful future.
To: Occitania
From: Italy
On behalf of the Counsel of European States, Italy would like to send investigators to not only aid you in during this time but also to ease the minds of those within the CES. Of course we need your permission, so if you do not grant it then we will not send anyone.
From: Italy
On behalf of the Counsel of European States, Italy would like to send investigators to not only aid you in during this time but also to ease the minds of those within the CES. Of course we need your permission, so if you do not grant it then we will not send anyone.
JohannaK
Heroically Clueless
ooc: Not really, if I remember correctly, and French is still French even if ancient, Languedoc means Language of oc. Presumably people called it "The region of the language of oc" ("La région de la Langue d'oc" in modern French) and it ended up being officially called Languedoc. :3
Immaculate
unerring
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2003
- Messages
- 7,623
OOC:
To be clear we did not 'set-up' any government. We merely recognized the defacto regional non-Occitanian leadership. These men and groups were pre-existing.
Also- ultimately we want the people to self-determine. If they determine they want governance from Occitania then thats fine. But if they want to govern themselves, we believe they should have a right to do so like all the other people of western Europe also recently received the right to do so.
We believe that a people that were 'sold' to you after you gassed and massacred them do not want to be governed by you regardless of how you've governed them since those times. So the issue is not whether you are 'oppressing' them or not but whether they wish Occitarian government or some other governance (self-governance?).
If you had not refused our polite request for a plebiscite we would not have needed to recognize the local non-Occitarian government.
Although this is OOC, you can take it that this is our position that is disseminated through back-room diplomacy and unofficial, off-the-record, conversations with foreign dignitaries and others.
To be clear we did not 'set-up' any government. We merely recognized the defacto regional non-Occitanian leadership. These men and groups were pre-existing.
Also- ultimately we want the people to self-determine. If they determine they want governance from Occitania then thats fine. But if they want to govern themselves, we believe they should have a right to do so like all the other people of western Europe also recently received the right to do so.
We believe that a people that were 'sold' to you after you gassed and massacred them do not want to be governed by you regardless of how you've governed them since those times. So the issue is not whether you are 'oppressing' them or not but whether they wish Occitarian government or some other governance (self-governance?).
If you had not refused our polite request for a plebiscite we would not have needed to recognize the local non-Occitarian government.
Although this is OOC, you can take it that this is our position that is disseminated through back-room diplomacy and unofficial, off-the-record, conversations with foreign dignitaries and others.
Milarqui
Deity
Starting next turn, the Partido Cristiano Demócrata Español will make an appearance in the political scene, as a left-wing party that also welcomes a greater role of the church in the nation of Spain (it is actually possible!).
J.K. Stockholme
Right Opposition
OOC:
I realize you like self-determination, but my government holds it's not a universal good, and that this is the exact scenario where it is morally wrong to allow secession. As we parodied, I should just as easily demand from you to have a referendum on rejoining Spain right now. It would be pointless, because not only do we know the outcome, but I have no right to demand anything of this from you, and we respect your ever important sovereignty.
Furthermore, self-determination applies to actual identities, for example, I presume most people in Euskadi and Catalonia are Basque and Catalan respectively. There is no Aquitainian identity, and it is not incumbent on me to encourage one, but I could if I wish - however you have no right to encourage it yourself.
And your "request" wasn't "polite", or modest either. You "urged" me to let a whole section of my country secede without any reason (as I've thoroughly discussed, I still hold there is no oppression), basically just encouraging separatism. And you asked me by calling my country a slave-trader, and insulting our ability to govern minorities - it was insulting and imprudent (to the IC government). It would have been polite to ask over PM, which is what I thought you were going to do originally, it also would have been polite to urge the plebiscite, give your reasons, and then drop the issue when we said no (or rather, when we said it's a domestic issue and won't be acting at this time).
There is a difference between demanding and urging, one is backed up by force (supporting governments and separatism, etc), the other is just a political statement about your ideological position (issuing the statement, and then backing down). If you want to do the latter, which is what you did - you urged me, you didn't demand - that's fine, but you have to respect whatever decision we make. If you want to play ball with the former, and bring in force (by taking direct actions to back up your demand), this is a ballgame that includes the military, so it is you who is escalating tension, not me. So you did not "need" to recognize this government in exile, you did so as a tool in forcing me to hold a plebiscite.
I'm telling you that's not cool man, I have my sovereignty. I'm not personally offended, but my in-character government is completely outraged.
IC:
From Occitania
To Italy
We decline your offer. Whatever results we find will be made public, and so will our response. As we are on the Protection Council, if we think the issue deserves talking about, we'll bring it up.
Milarqui
Deity
To: Occitania
From: Spain
We support your position in the current crisis.
From: Spain
We support your position in the current crisis.
christos200
Never tell me the odds
ooc: I want USA!!!
Althought I know that EQ wont let me change.
Dammit. Why everyone quits from a large nation when I chose a small and failed state.
Althought I know that EQ wont let me change.
Dammit. Why everyone quits from a large nation when I chose a small and failed state.
TheLizardKing
Let's talk Michelle.
You can't edit away insults. It was quoted. Last memory.
Lord of Elves
Suede-Denim Secret Police
- Joined
- Oct 31, 2009
- Messages
- 6,976
Some things just need to be said.
Jehoshua
Catholic
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2009
- Messages
- 7,284
I tend to find that the simple left-right spectrum is a crude measure of ideology to begin with. That said, it shall be interesting to see what platfrom this Partido Cristiano Democrata Espanol espouses.
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