Capto Iugulum Background Thread

[Luckymoose]

I should hope not considering liberation theology contains several heretical teachings. The welfare bit would not be enough to make Il Papa irritated but if liberation theology (closet proletarism) began to be insinuated...

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Now just to make it clear, some aspects of the thing are praiseworthy such its ideal of justice, its rejection of violence, and its stress on the responsibility of christians in charity towards the poor and oppressed. But its framing of religion in political terms, its idea that ones economic status grants one priveleged access to grace, and its particular ecclessiology of the Church are all problematic.

The first two result in a kind of justification for proletarism, by establishing a tacit association of "the poor" with the proletariat in the context of class struggle. With this being in opposition to the Catholic teaching of a single "society of christians" united within the Church and working together in the interests of the common good of all. (the idea that ones economic position determines whether one has priveleged access to grace is also theologically problematic in that it makes the "church of the poor" the ecclessial setting of Christology, not the apostolic faith)

As to the third problem, its heretical ecclessiology. In liberation theology the spiritual concept of the Church as "People of God" is transformed into a "Marxist myth" (or we could say proletarist myth in CI) type construct. The people, as such, become the antithesis of the hierarchy, which becomes an oppressive power. Ultimately in liberation theology anyone who participates in the class struggle of "the poor" against everyone else is a member of the "people", with the "Church of the people" becoming an antagonist of the hierarchical Church in opposition to the magisterium and legitimate authority. This is contrary to Divine and Catholic faith.

I don't think you're comprehending the economics of Moralism or the type of Liberation Theology being talked about here. Proletarism is based on a collective holding of production through syndicalist means (unions and the like), Moralism is attempting to get as close to laissez-faire as possible. Liberation Theology is a long standing tradition in Brazil (and South America), which is the spread of freedom from tyrannical power. There is no "Marxism" here. It is simply aimed at ending the types of governments--Proletarism and Absolutism--that take all power from the people and place it in the state, not on the economic upheaval presented in Marxist style thought.

 

[Jehoshua]

I don't think you're comprehending the economics of Moralism or the type of Liberation Theology being talked about here.

The economics is not whats pertinent here (I wasn't even talking about economics). What I was talking about was what liberation theology proposes IRL in theological terms. As to what you mean by "liberation theology" that is of course Im trying to work out considering I know what it is OTL.

Liberation Theology is a long standing tradition in Brazil (and South America), which is the spread of freedom from tyrannical power. There is no "Marxism" here. It is simply aimed at ending the types of governments--Proletarism and Absolutism--that take all power from the people and place it in the state, not on the economic upheaval presented in Marxist style thought.

That is not liberation theology (compared to what I was talking about which is what it is IRL) at all then considering it contains no theological component whatsoever. Its just the idea that tyranny should be overthrown in opposition to absolute statism. This is a purely political position, not a political theology like liberation theology IRL is. Incidentally what you have said (in as much as you have said) is pretty much in agreement with the Church's teaching on the matter, which fundamentally disagrees with absolutist state power on the ontological ground that it makes man (in the form of the state) the arbiter of right and wrong with all the consequences that entails vis a vis relativism and so forth.

 

[Luckymoose]

That is not liberation theology (compared to what I was talking about which is what it is IRL) at all then considering it contains no theological component whatsoever. Its just the idea that tyranny should be overthrown. This is a purely political position, not a political theology like liberation theology IRL is. Incidentally its pretty much in agreement with Church teaching, which fundamentally disagrees with absolutist state power on the ontological ground that it makes man (in the form of the state) the arbiter of right and wrong with all the consequences that entails vis a vis relativism and so forth.

Liberation Theology as presented, both here and IRL, stem from the Catholic religious views. The differences being, in this timeline, the direction it has been taken by Moralist thinkers is closer to the style of governance that Brazil has had for decades. I know what Liberation Theology is about, and this timeline's version of it is not as extensively communistic. That said, Liberation Theology does not have to be Marxist, and often isn't, that is just one interpretation of it. The style that has been developing in CI is much less about the economic hardships, considering South America is by and far more stable and wealthy (despite Brazil being wholly underestimated by EQ) than OTL, and is more concerned with "others". Absolutism and Proletarism are threats to the people themselves, and Liberation Theology, as presented here, is a political ideology aiming for the active participation in the downfall of these governments and the end of their ideologies.

 

[Jehoshua]

Liberation Theology as presented, both here and IRL, stem from the Catholic religious views. The differences being, in this timeline, the direction it has been taken by Moralist thinkers is closer to the style of governance that Brazil has had for decades. I know what Liberation Theology is about, and this timeline's version of it is not as extensively communistic. That said, Liberation Theology does not have to be Marxist, and often isn't, that is just one interpretation of it. The style that has been developing in CI is much less about the economic hardships, considering South America is by and far more stable and wealthy (despite Brazil being wholly underestimated by EQ) than OTL, and is more concerned with "others". Absolutism and Proletarism are threats to the people themselves, and Liberation Theology, as presented here, is a political ideology aiming for the active participation in the downfall of these governments and the end of their ideologies.

I could say though, that Capto-Iugulums "Liberation Theology" is something entirely different from the movement of the same name OTL. (Perhaps a different name, Liberation Theory would be more appropriate)

Liberation Theology here, is completely lacking in a theological component. Yes it may be presented as stemming from Catholic social teaching in opposition to statist absolutism and for the care of the poor, but within itself (and unlike Liberation theology irl) it seemingly (from what you have said) does not actually propose a particular theological position itself. OTL liberation theology (in the Catholic context, considering principles of it have raised their head in other religions) on the contrast does actually propose a theology of its own, and one that is heretical at that as I previously noted with regards to the sames ecclesiological and other errors (from the Catholic view).

 

[Luckymoose]

I could say though, that Capto-Iugulums "Liberation Theology" is something entirely different from the movement of the same name OTL. (Perhaps a different name, Liberation Theory would be more appropriate)

Liberation Theology here, is completely lacking in a theological component. Yes it may be presented as stemming from Catholic social teaching in opposition to statist absolutism and for the care of the poor, but within itself (and unlike Liberation theology irl) it seemingly (from what you have said) does not actually propose a particular theological position itself. OTL liberation theology (in the Catholic context, considering principles of it have raised their head in other religions) on the contrast does actually propose a theology of its own, and one that is heretical at that as I previously noted with regards to the sames ecclesiological and other errors (from the Catholic view).

Technically, if the whole of South America went with a new theological movement, the Pope couldn't very well do anything about it. It would come down to losing the majority of your flock or adapting to the times.

 

[Jehoshua]

Technically, if the whole of South America went with a new theological movement, the Pope couldn't very well do anything about it. It would come down to losing the majority of your flock or adapting to the times.

Except as you well know, reality is not so simple

 

[theDright]

I don't think one of my previous questions has been addressed. Do Germany and Italy have a unified language? Since there was no Prussian-dominated Germany in CI:E&N and the BT, and no unified Italy for any length of time, I would argue that there isn't. Unified Germany and Italy are purely products of political and royal maneuvering, but nobody speaks the same language. Since Italian unification, I'd presume that Neapolitan Italian is either replacing or supplementing the various regional Italian dialects, but I don't know how it would work in Germany.

 

[Crezth]

Austria and Prussia spoke the same language sans regional dialects, I don't see why this should be any different?

 

[theDright]

Regional German dialects aren't really mutually intelligible. German schoolchildren, even today, have to learn their local dialect and Hochdeutsch, the Prussian-Berlin official dialect. The genders of nouns, as well as common greetings can be completely different, which is really important in spoken German. And Swiss German is completely different.

And in Italy, they had to select a dialect to become the one universal dialect. I think it was Florentine Italian, because supposedly it was the most beautiful.

 

[Luckymoose]

And who knows what happened in this timeline considering it diverged like 700 years ago or more.

 

[Crezth]

Regional German dialects aren't really mutually intelligible. German schoolchildren, even today, have to learn their local dialect and Hochdeutsch, the Prussian-Berlin official dialect. The genders of nouns, as well as common greetings can be completely different, which is really important in spoken German. And Swiss German is completely different.

And in Italy, they had to select a dialect to become the one universal dialect. I think it was Florentine Italian, because supposedly it was the most beautiful.

Ah. I guess it's up to TLK then. I don't suppose it'd be unreasonable to suppose that an Austrian dialect was made the official one though.

 

[Jehoshua]

The term "dialect" with regards to Italy is actually not that accurate, and really describes separate languages (Neapolitan, Sicilian, Italian, Sardinian, Corsican, Venetian, Central Italian Dialect Continuum, Gallo-Italian Dialect Continuum).

Considering Italy was unified via treaty and not via conquest in CI, one could hypothesise that they either use regional languages where pertinent and use a lingua franca in parliament (latin or Neapolitan) or alternatively that the official language is something not actually used by most people (like Bahasa Indonesia in Indonesia IRL) everyday, and rather a pure administrative language. Probably something like latin considering its Italy.

 

[EQandcivfanatic]

Without saying too much, I'd like to state that I have considered these elements.

 

[qoou]

Don't forget France too while we're at it, whose official language was created by a group of officials in the 17th century. No way Parisian French could've dominated and replaced regional languages as much as it did IRL.

Edit:
As per my mother's history that she has just retold me, the modern Romanian language was created by a group called "The Flying Cenacle" who went on to be '48ers.

 

[EQandcivfanatic]

Since it is coming up in this update (I swear I’m working on it when I can, not now though, at work), here’s a quick rundown of all nations and their main religions. Note that these are not all state religions, or even legal within some governments. Also, this does not include colonial possessions or any significant minority faiths. Lastly, it should be pointed out that some faiths may be different than what you’d expect from OTL history.

Abyssinia
Majority Faith: Orthodox Christianity

Adjuuramark
Majority Faith: Sunni Islam

Afghanistan
Majority Faith: Sunni Islam

Angola
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

Argentina
Majority Faith: Assorted Protestant Christians

Aztlan
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

Bosnia
Majority Faith: Orthodox Christianity

Botswana
Majority Faith: Assorted Protestant Christians

Brazil
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

Brittany
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

Bulgaria
Majority Faith: Orthodox Christianity

Burgundy
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

Burundi
Majority Faith: Assorted Protestant Christians

Catalonia
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

Cechy-Morava
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

Chile
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

China
Majority Faith: Ascendant Christianity

Chokweland
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

Colombia
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

Costa Rica
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

Corsica
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

Croatia
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

Cuba
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

Dauphine
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

Denmark
Majority faith: Assorted Protestant Christians

Ecuador
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

Egypt
Majority Faith: Sunni Islam

Euskadi
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

Flanders
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

Florida
Majority Faith: Assorted Protestant Christians

Galicia
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

Germany
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

Guangxi
Majority Faith: Taoism

Hashemite Sultanate
Majority Faith: Sunni Islam

Hawaii
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

Hispaniola
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

Hollandia
Majority Faith: Assorted Protestant Christians

Honduras
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

Hungary
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

India
Majority Faith: Hinduism

Italy
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

Jacksonia
Majority Faith: Assorted Protestant Christians

Jamaica
Majority Faith: Assorted Protestant Christians

Japan
Majority Faith: Shintoism

Kazakhstan
Majority Faith: Shia Islam

Kalinga
Majority Faith: Hinduism

Kongo
Majority Faith: Assorted Protestant Christians

Kurdistan
Majority Faith: Sunni Islam

Libya
Majority Faith: Sunni Islam

Mayaland
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

Mozambique
Majority Faith: Assorted Protestant Christians

Mutapa
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

Netherlands
Majority Faith: Assorted Protestant Christians

New Zealand
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

Nicaragua
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

Normandy
Majority Faith: Assorted Protestant Christians

Occitania
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

Oranjien
Majority Faith: Assorted Protestant Christians

Orleans
Majority Faith: Assorted Protestant Christians

Ovamboland
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

Papal States
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

Paraguay
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

Persia
Majority Faith: Shia Islam

Peru
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

Poitou
Majority Faith: Assorted Protestant Christians

Portugal
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

Puerto Rico
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

Roman Empire
Majority Faith: Orthodox Christianity

Romania
Majority Faith: Orthodox Christianity

Russia
Majority Faith: Orthodox Christianity

Sardinia
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

Scandinavia
Majority Faith: Assorted Protestant Christians

Serbia
Majority Faith: Orthodox Christianity

South Africa
Majority Faith: Assorted Protestant Christians

Spain
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

Sudan
Majority Faith: Sunni Islam

Switzerland
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

Tadjoura
Majority Faith: Orthodox Christianity

Tanganyeken
Majority Faith: Assorted Protestant Christians

Tibet
Majority Faith: Buddhism

Turkey
Majority Faith: Sunni Islam

United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland
Majority Faith: Assorted Protestant Christians

United Proletarist Republics of America
Majority Faith: Assorted Protestant Christians

United States of America
Majority Faith: Assorted Protestant Christians

Uruguay
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

Venezuela
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

Vinland
Majority Faith: Assorted Protestant Christians

Zambia
Majority Faith: Assorted Protestant Christians

Zululand
Majority Faith: Assorted Protestant Christians

 

[Luckymoose]

Germany
Majority Faith: Catholic Christianity

 

[Jehoshua]

Some interesting Catholic locales there.

 

[EQandcivfanatic]

Nothing to see here. For now.

 

[Bair_the_Normal]

Ooh, Japan's majority religion is Shinto. That's quite interesting.

 

[Luckymoose]

This may be accurate.

Spoiler :