Capto Iugulum Background Thread

Well, you square peg will continue to be shoved in the round hole, at least in the Americas. Proles are the boogeymen that US children are terrified of; the only Proles in South America turned into a parody of insanity by someone who will remain nameless.

Well, Argentina cares little for Scandinavia. It's that weird country with proletarism on the other side of the world, with a bunch of its citizens still living under a Monarchy in Kongo. Like most politicians, I'll care about it when the voters care about it or when its punching me in the face.

You aren't being an obvious vanguard though. All those African proletarist movements failed. The other proletarists you support with tech aren't really getting any better at vanguarding either, as far as I can tell. Scandinavian Proletarism mainly survives due to apathy and realpolitik between, given a choice, rabidly anti-Proletarist Empires. But then again, if you are as savvy as you think, which is certainly possible, we won't realize it until its right there and basically inevitable. Like climate change or the insolvency of the Federal Reserve. :p
 
What is important to realize is that EQ has not been keen on the idea of a large, international Revolutionary movement, so any sponsor and sponsored relationship between a Revolutionary state and people looking to create a Revolutionary state in their own nation is not going to be a properly public affair, nor a very common one.

EQ can of course count me wrong, but I remember him being very clear that most people did not actually "want" proletarism, which they saw as discredited vis a vis the failure of the Hungarian Revolution and other movements to violently overthrow plutocratist regimes.

@theDright, international proletarism is far more complicated and involved than you apparently think. I'm not about to own up to some kind of international conspiracy, but if you can't draw the dots, you aren't looking at the picture very well.

@Jehoshua, the TTL term is colleague :mad:
 
ooc: comrade sounds that much more ominous though, which considering the unofficial existence of a non-confessed international conspiracy, is fully appropriate ;)
 
Well, I can draw dots, but as with most clandestine actions and conspiracies, I don't necessarily know that it is there. I could just be fooling myself. I won't question your abilities to conspire.

As for the Hungarian Revolution, that didn't really fail due to lack of commitment. It failed because Hungary's neighbours weren't properly liberal or republican, and hence unsympathetic. Or that nationalist sentiment overwhelmed any proletarist yearning. And Russia.
 
\...(basks at being the catalyst of Polish traditional proletarisms self-annihilation) ;)

I... have not... forgiven you for that. And the whole Polish movement was destroyed, not just the proletarist part (which was probably a minority anyway; a necessary one, but a minority nonetheless). No, never before have I wanted the Pope to die so badly... :trouble:
 
I didn't necessarily desire the liquidation of the religious component (I did want it to be non-violent), that was an unfortunate consequence of the Trad Proles unwillingness to suffer a dignified death. That said, I am of course pleased that the trad-prole element has "ceased to be", the Church does not want the Polish peoples conditions to deteriorate (and indeed our agency has ensured their conditions have improved) and has no interest seeing the proletarist revolution spread. Furthermore to be quite honest the disintegration of the Russian State at this point in time is not in the Papal Interest both for those reason aforementioned, and because it fears that instability in the Russian Empire could result in an unfortunate proliferation of general warfare in Eastern Europe, with its Proletarist movement waiting in the wings and legacy of the Hungarian conflict. (not to mention the frozen wars, like the Serbian/Bosnian/Croatian conflict, and the tensions between Hungary and various former constituent components of the same)

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EDIT: BTW, what is Britain's whole thing with Poland? I mean it lacks a direct territorial of sphere of influence stake in the region and its not like Britain has other concerns or anything... (cough* fireworks war, and the diminution of Empire in Africa, cough*)
 
I didn't necessarily desire the liquidation of the religious component (I did want it to be non-violent), that was an unfortunate consequence of the Trad Proles unwillingness to suffer a dignified death. That said, I am of course pleased that the trad-prole element has "ceased to be", the Church does not want the Polish peoples conditions to deteriorate (and indeed our agency has ensured their conditions have improved) and has no interest seeing the proletarist revolution spread. Furthermore to be quite honest the disintegration of the Russian State at this point in time is not in the Papal Interest both for those reason aforementioned, and because it fears that instability in the Russian Empire could result in an unfortunate proliferation of general warfare in Eastern Europe, with its Proletarist movement waiting in the wings and legacy of the Hungarian conflict. (not to mention the frozen wars, like the Serbian/Bosnian/Croatian conflict, and the tensions between Hungary and various former constituent components of the same)

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EDIT: BTW, what is Britain's whole thing with Poland? I mean it lacks a direct territorial of sphere of influence stake in the region and its not like Britain has other concerns or anything... (cough* fireworks war, and the diminution of Empire in Africa, cough*)

Poland in 1900 was one of the Great Eight, the eight powers of the world, so I have always seen Poland as a major contributor to Russian hegemony. Before Poland was annexed, Britain and Poland were allies (it was, in fact, called the Krakow Pact). Poland offers easy access to Germany, and if Germany were to fall to Russian armies, there would be very little to stop the Russians afterwords from further advancing into Europe, and the Russians would be in striking distance of Britain and the Channel, a very dangerous position for Britain (and we hate each other, in case you haven't guessed, so I wouldn't count on their mercy). While Europe's industrial power is within easy striking distance of Russia, the same cannot be said of Russia's industrial heartland... With Poland being a major reason for this. So because of Poland, Russia's industrial underbelly is safe, but Europe's is exposed, and Britain is not invulnerable. A free and friendly Poland would do so much to even the odds against Russia. Furthermore, I have felt that Poland is a strong candidate for Moralism, since Poland is known for being devoutly Catholic, and they may want a detox from Orthodox rule (and so long as it doesn't come to Britain, we don't care about Moralism). But after the Pope's involvement with the collapse of the Polish independence movement, I bet there is probably some feeling of abandonment from the Catholic Church by the Poles, so the perceived destruction of Proletarism in Poland is likely only temporary; in fact, future Polish independence movements would probably be more prole in character, because the Proles did not ignore the plight of the Poles, while the Pope's call is seen as having destroyed the movement. So not only has Britain been shot, the Papacy probably hasn't done themselves any favors either (and if there's anything I can't stand is when I get stabbed and the stabber did a lousy job at it).

Britain sees Proles as more an annoyance than anything, not nearly posing the threat to the British way of life and enlightened society as Russia does (their social system being centuries behind Western Europe). The Proles do not have the manpower, industrial power, or military power to challenge Britain. Most activity against the Proles would only be a distraction from the most dangerous threat in the East.
 
There's a few things wrong I think with that analysis of post revolution collapse Poland though.

Firstly the Pope merely called for non-violence (something the religious component in the Polish Independence movement agreed too), the Church didn't actually take any action against the rebels at all, or denounce them in any way, or in the possible event the local Polish Hierarchy was giving support autonomously, it didn't cease supporting it (I didn't make any demands on the Polish Church). In fact the Pope tacitly declared their legitimacy by addressing them directly to begin with, so the Papal statements could actually be interpreted as a sign of open support. Considering all this, its a hard ask to say the Pope "abandoned" Poland, particularly considering the clerics were at the heart of the movement to begin with as the relevant updates say, and the things I mention below...

Secondly their destruction was entirely self-inflicted even if the source of that self-inflicted destruction was the dispute between Prole and Religious factions in the independence movement on whether to adopt peaceful methods Il papa supported vs violent opposition methods that had been tried and which had failed btw to achieve any substantial result over the entire span of Russian rule. (a significant amount of time!) There has been a militant rebellion in place since the occupation started and it achieved squat. Considering this, the majority are much more likely considering this absence of tangible results (coupled with the memory negative of anti-partisan actions in response by the Russians) to blame the Proles and advocates of the sword than the Pope (particularly considering they are as you noted, mostly pious Catholics and so already inclined to the Catholic point of view), since it was precisely the dogmatic intransigence of the militants, and their inability to consider non-violent means of opposition that started the whole process of self-destruction and brought about the worst of the oppression to begin with. It was likewise the proles who refused to co-operate with the majority of the opposition, and who ultimately betrayed the movement in the end once the majority rejected Revolutionary Proletarism, and concluded that violence was not a winning strategy.

Thirdly, the apportionment of blame to the warmongers is even more likely to be what occurs since the end of violent revolt in Poland has actually achieved the tangible better conditions for Polish People that the Pope noted would be the case if non-violent opposition to Russian rule was adopted, (this being noted in the update). The papal position that peaceful opposition is better in terms of results for the Polish people than violence (because violence merely begets oppressive actions and harms the average citizen) has been resoundingly validated, whereas the Proletarists with their violent revolution fetish have been delegitimised by the compounded failure of violent methods, with militancy as I noted, failing over long decades to achieve a single tangible benefit for the Polish people. Combining this with the fact that the failure of violent revolution to achieve anything good is supported historically in numerous cases, such as with regards to events like the Hungarian Incident, and the Popes point is clearly proven. Violent rebellion time and time again has been bad for peoples health, liberty and wellbeing and doesn't tend to leave the everyday peasant better off (it leaves them worse off surprisingly). Noting all this, the average Catholic Polish civilian, considering events that have played out is much more likely to see it in the way I have described than the alternative I would think. The Pope was self-evidently correct that Russia would not oppress them with egregious anti-partisan protocols if violent methods stopped, and peace has resulted in more benefits coming to Poland than the fruits of decades of low level conflict. It is a reality that most people really just want to be left alone to live their lives without undue restriction, and so long as Russia does this and continues to let Poles manage their own affairs, the majority aren't going to be flocking to the banner of war or rebellion short of an obvious catalytic event. (albeit the literati and the like are going to be ruminating things methinks :p)

Thus considering a) that the Pope has not denounced opposition to Russia at all (and publically lamented the destruction of the opposition) and thus cant be said to be opposed to Polish independence b) that violent revolution achieved nothing over the decades and actually made life worse for the average Joe, c) peace has brought benefits over only one year and d) history, and events validate the popes words. I wouldn't be surprised if over time, peaceful Catholic efforts to secure Polish autonomy organically emerge anew due to the validation of the Popes point and the failure of violent rebellion.

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As to your strategic concerns, they are entirely valid. Its a self-help world and you can't know what Russia will do. The Church however hopes (self-evidently) for a somewhat more peaceful balance of power to be achieved, which is why a certain forum was opened where Russia and Britain amongst others can actually engage in an ongoing discussion precisely to ensure such a wide-scale war does not occur, and precisely so that tensions can be somewhat kept down through talks.
 
Proletarism

All right let's clear the air on proletarism, both for the talk on this thread and the talk on the rest of the thread. Of course, this is a nuanced look at things, and feel free to ignore it and make arguments against the evidence to suit a political agenda, it's just good politics. As I told Lord of Elves, Charles Mathis would utterly despise what has emerged in Scandinavia, as it does not meet any of the tenets or ideals he held dear. Furthermore, it does actually espouse ideals that are completely contrary to Mathis' own beliefs, including imperialism and actually working with evil monarchies. It is currently marked as Traditional Proletarist solely because it's the closest, as it is still somewhat centralized state. Economically speaking though, there's still competition, there's still businesses, even if they are run collectively. Ecuador was being modeled into a similar manner, until it abruptly altered its course, creating instability and a situation which forced Colombia and Peru to intervene.

If we look at the United Proletarist Republics of America, however, we get a different story. Here there is no competing businesses, but rather a centralized state in full control of the methods and means of production. Furthermore, the state is focused upon a centralized bureaucracy and organized military force, in line with actual traditional proletarist ideals. Due to the nature of the country's origins and the hostility with the United States, UPRA proletarism is militarized to a high degree, and exists almost constantly in a state of a war economy. As most of the nation's founders were predominantly illiterate slaves, they were forced to import educated Scandinavians, who made up (and continue to make up) a good deal of the skilled workforce. Despite this, they did not import Scandinavian ideals, and frankly, most of the Scandinavians arriving are likely those most disgusted with the failure of their own government to actually embrace the revolution. Now, it can also be said that the state of Ovamboland was following a similar course as the UPRA, but due to the Chokwe invasion, that was brought to an abrupt halt.

Those two are the key traditional proletarist state, but I have seen some of you refer to the Red Army as a similar organization. This is quite definitely not true. While the Red Army is organized with a strict chain of command and the overthrow of an old regime, it is quite definitely not proletarist. The revolution in China espouses only the liberation of the people from Japan and is more or less running what could be call "The Vague Revolution." The army does have full control of the means of production available, and all efforts are directed towards the war, but ideologically speaking, the Red Army is nationalist movement above all else, which as previous stated, is abhorrent to traditional proletarists. This is in stark contrast to the Hungarian Civil War, where the proletarists were quite definitely proletarists.

Speaking of which, the Hungarian Civil War did discourage some people from the routes of traditional proletarism in Europe for a time. The brutality and atrocities committed during the conflict threw a taint on the ideals, particularly as the proletarists massacred any royalists they could get their hands on. As time has passed since that conflict (almost 20 years now) there has been a changing of thoughts, as people in Europe have begun to associate traditional proletarism with Scandinavian proletarism instead. The use of revolution through unions and in some cases political process, actually brings the new wave of traditional proletarists closer to social proletarists. In fact, the most violent revolutionaries in Europe at the time being are anti-royal republicans, nationalists, and other similar groups. Traditional proletarism in Europe is instead more present within the unions, seeking to supplant social proletarism, which has seen its own share of successes.

Moving on to social proletarism, I'd like to point out a number of states which have had social proletarist governments and what exactly that has meant for their counties and the larger world. The Netherlands is the best and foremost example here, having a social proletarist government elected more than any other democracy. The social proletarists here in ways supplanted liberal movements, while avoiding the notions of revolution or extreme change. They have espoused the cause of the worker and freedom, rather than the destruction of business or the old order. Yes, they are called socialists. In the context of Capto Iugulum, these are socialists, and that is the correct word to use. In any nation where they have emerged they have typically followed the same procedures: passing healthcare or pension legislation, and providing better working conditions for the average man. The prime example here have been regimes in Netherlands, Galicia, Jacksonia, and Vinland.

Now on to Brazil. Regardless of luckymoose's posturing, the reforms passed by liberal governments have all been modeled upon the social reform undertaken by social proletarist nations. The moralist regime currently in charge has supported the idea of improving the worker's lot with some good morals thrown in. I'm not saying moralism = socialism, but there are numerous examples of identical philosophies and moralism is proving to be a strong unifying force for members of both the left and right. There is one key difference though that makes me hesitate from just saying "Brazil is social proletarist." That is the greater restriction of freedoms under the moralist government. Yes, it may just be the freedom of what you drink or not, but it is still a restriction of freedom. Other moralist governments have shown similar behavior, most obviously in pre-reform Chile, which is now distancing itself from that effort. Above all else social proletarists believe in individual freedom, almost to the same degree as anarchists. So despite every other similarity that exists, the ideals of individual freedom versus dedication to the Church is what clearly and definitively separates moralism and proletarism.

Poland

In 1900, Poland most definitely was the last and best hope for the containment and defeat of Russia. In fact, for those of you who recall, Poland actually did quite well in holding back the Russians in the Great War, with limited British and American support. The decision of the Polish player at the time to build and deploy a navy while he needed more soldiers on the front proved to be the most critically flawed decision in the NES, and likely one which has butterfly effected itself to this very day. Combined with Brandenburg's backroom deal with Russia, the Poles were crushed because they were not able to put enough troops on the ground to fight back the Russians. If Poland had dedicated more resources to the army instead of the navy, or if Brandenburg had honored its alliance and sent troops into support Poland after the Confederation bowed out, Poland could well have turned the tides and defeated Russia. I do not know where that would put us today, but in that case, I'd say the very idea of a Russian invasion of Europe would likely be utter nonsense.
 
Actually, thinking about Poland it might be the next region to fall to this timelines modernised equivalent of liberal nationalism (the kind embodied by Drekler, Italy, etc.). The nationalists been abandoned by the Catholic Church, and, as EQ said, Traditional Proletarism has been given a pretty nasty whack by the failure of the Hungarian Civil War (and, presumably, the Copenhagen Uprising, where Proletarists rose up against the most liberal monarch imaginable. :p).

On top of that, they are struggling under the burden of the a hegemon that is basically an enlightened despot straight out of the 18th Century. I can see the Poles turning to something thats basically the anti-Russia in a lot of ways, as a general rejection of autocracy coming from Russia. Liberal Nationalism is still very much a thing in this TL, though it doesn't get mentioned much in comparison to moralism and Proletarism, and it still ought to be pretty prevalent in Europe - remember, Germany under Dreklerism destroyed France and is still running the pieces, and unless there's been a significant paradigm shift it is still a liberal nationalist state.

As such, with the remaining Polish independence movement rejecting Moralism and the Pope and Proletarism not being a strong force in Russia (since unions are banned), I can see Poland turning towards radical liberalism in an effort to win independence.

@EQ: so what would a Mathusian proletarist state look like? Would it be very similar to OTL's industrialised state-planned economies like the USSR or Poland?

EDIT: Actually, lets make some more inferences about culture in Europe. Specifically, lets talk about two things - food and immigration.

As you may recall, for a good 50-odd years the most populated parts of China were carved up among the European powers. The FBC, Netherlands, Denmark, Scandinavia, Spain, and Britain all held significant chunks of Chinese territory.

Now, lets also talk about immigration. Historically, during this period there was a huge outward immigration from China. This was due to many factors - overcrowding, famine, and poverty in China, and the relative prosperity of the West and marketing about the various "Get Rich Quick" schemes present there (see: the Gold Rush, Pearl Diving, etc.) Similarly, there was a really large movement of Indians from the Subcontinent during this period - there were 70,000 South Asians in the British isles in 1900. A lot of these Indians ended up in the Caribbean as indentured labourers, while the Chinese migrants mostly went to the New World - Canada, America,

Now, lets go back to Capto's timeline. In this timeline, large sections of China were conquered by the Europeans. However, all of the demographic factors that led to immigration from China are present - possibly compounded by the fact that they are under the thumb of colonial governments who don't really care what happens to the Chinese. What does this mean? That rather than all travelling to the New World as many Chinese did OTL, they would do what the various Indians did and immigrate within the empires. There are probably tens of thousands of people of Chinese descent in London, Madrid, and Cadiz, and probably similar (if smaller) Chinese populations in Copenhagen, Stockholm, Bergen, and Amsterdam. All of these cities would likely have thriving Chinatowns similar to San Francisco's or Sydney's. Chinese restaurants and cafes might be more common in Europe in this period, and the world might have discovered noodles earlier. China's educated elite of the early 1900s would have likely been educated in Europe as well, and brought that back to the country when they returned. Perhaps the leaders of the Red Army are the protegees of those who studied in Europe and America 40 years before.

On top of that, just like how there were many Indians travelling to the British colonies as indentured labourers or on Get Rich Quick schemes, there might be more Chinese across the world as well. Australia would likely have a similar Chinese population from the Gold Rushes and pearl diving as OTL, while America's might be slightly less. Vinland's Pacific coast, however, might have Chinatowns of its own. Oranjien is sitting right on a whole bunch of diamond mines, which is why its a settler colony - its likely that quite a few of the early settlers were Chinese people from the Danish colonies who moved there in pursuit of diamonds and stayed. Brazil, being the land of the free and having its own great wealth and expanse of land needing settlement, would also have a large Chinese population, and the former Spanish Caribbean would have large populations of indentured labourers from China who ended up there and stayed.
 
Proletarism

Now on to Brazil. Regardless of luckymoose's posturing, the reforms passed by liberal governments have all been modeled upon the social reform undertaken by social proletarist nations. The moralist regime currently in charge has supported the idea of improving the worker's lot with some good morals thrown in. I'm not saying moralism = socialism, but there are numerous examples of identical philosophies and moralism is proving to be a strong unifying force for members of both the left and right. There is one key difference though that makes me hesitate from just saying "Brazil is social proletarist." That is the greater restriction of freedoms under the moralist government. Yes, it may just be the freedom of what you drink or not, but it is still a restriction of freedom. Other moralist governments have shown similar behavior, most obviously in pre-reform Chile, which is now distancing itself from that effort. Above all else social proletarists believe in individual freedom, almost to the same degree as anarchists. So despite every other similarity that exists, the ideals of individual freedom versus dedication to the Church is what clearly and definitively separates moralism and proletarism.

Point one is noting the temperance movement, which has only barred hard liquors. Restrictions of freedom in regards to proletarist activities is also true, but that has been the case longer than the Moralists have existed. Point two, religious freedom has not been removed, and never will be, and mandatory church affiliation will never be forced. It is a false allegation to say all Moralists are theocratic nutjobs. It doesn't much matter, though, because over 80% of the country actively attend mass anyway.

My views on proletarism come entirely from the two examples presented by Scandinavia and the UPRA. To say Brazil borrowed from social proletarists, when in fact it was one of the first governments in the world to implement a pension program (the Dutch did it first) during the Party of Order revival in the 1910s, is just silly. The Social Proletarists didn't gain much international traction until the 1920s, especially in places like Jacksonia and Vinland. I think the Social Proles are less Proles than they are farther left liberals.

Brazil has been a fairly liberal regime for a long time, especially after the Great War until the mid-1920's. Moralism is a fairly moderate movement, that I agree on. It is a unifying political movement that has up until now maintained the popular support needed. But we'll see what happens in 1938.

I can't speak for Moralists elsewhere, because they do a lot of things Brazilian Moralists wouldn't (and I think that can be said for how social proles work internationally too, they all differ on how far they'll go).

Combined with Brandenburg's backroom deal with Russia, the Poles were crushed because they were not able to put enough troops on the ground to fight back the Russians.

This is one reason Brazil has had strained relations with Germany for 30 years.
 
Yes, let's talk about the Chinamen, since I do recall seeing nuke asking somewhere if he had any. I think Grandkhan's analysis there is pretty accurate, and that the Chinese would have likely migrated within the empires at play. This would obviously mean large Chinese quarters in places like Paris, London, and Stockholm. Smaller, but similar anomalies would exist in Copenhagen, Warsaw, and Lisbon. We could also theorize a strong Chinese population in Australia and New Zealand. I'm not going to rehash Grandkhan's statements for the rest of the world though. In Jacksonia in particular or any of the USA, former or otherwise, I doubt there are many Chinese. First of all we could list things like the oppressive nature of the government, inherent xenophobia, and whatnot from 1850-1900. Those are definite contributing factors. The key argument I'd make is economic, however. The Chinese would have represented a large labor force that would undermine the vital institution of slavery, and I suspect the US would have closed off their arrival after the first waves came in. Though some may have settled in Jacksonia regardless, I would say that the US did not receive the same numbers they received OTL. Chile and Argentina on the other hand may have gotten some of the influx, with Vinland getting the lion's share.
 
Only in luckymoose's paranoia fueled fever dreams. :p
 
The nationalists been abandoned by the Catholic Church

As such, with the remaining Polish independence movement rejecting Moralism and the Pope and Proletarism not being a strong force in Russia

Except nationalists haven't been abandoned by the Church, the Church simply did what you'd expect a Church to do, call for non-violence out of benevolent concern for the harm being done to the run of the mill Polish citizen.

Also, evidence has yet to eventuate that the remaining Polish independence advocates have ditched religion (I'm not sure they were moralists to begin with), and Russia /= Poland.

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Back to China :p
 
EQ, sometime I'd like to hear how exactly we have angered Mathis' vengeful ghost. Scanditarianism may not be traditional proletarism as envisioned by Mathis, but like Marx, Mathis was vague. We have democratized labor, destroyed the plutocracy by beholding capital to the state and virtually eliminated poverty and vagrancy. Sure, there are people in the Workers' Commonwealth who are not necessarily productive citizens, but they have housing and food. They just don't have the franchise.

EDIT: I feel vaguely annoyed (outraged isn't the right word) at the sheer level of hypocrisy of the RCC in this TL. There is blood on the Pope's hands. Gallons and gallons of it.
 
I should clarify that in the Workers' Commonwealth there are two ways to achieve suffrage, the first of which to be an adult who is a member of a legal, Revolutionary Government-recognized labor union. The second is to be in active military service. There is a national service program, but professional soldiers get the franchise by virtue of their sacrifice on behalf of the Fatherland.

It is possible for women to have the franchise, though the number of women working in factories is probably not as great as it once was, and accordingly not as many women are members of recognized labor unions. Therefore no suffrage.
 
EDIT: I feel vaguely annoyed (outraged isn't the right word) at the sheer level of hypocrisy of the RCC in this TL. There is blood on the Pope's hands. Gallons and gallons of it.

As someone said, the Pope being a temporal sovereign has the unfortunate dichotomy of being wedged between terrestrial and spiritual concerns. This in the 19th century from what I observed proved somewhat problematic in terms of promoting the Catholic religion, and being generally morally consistent... It wasn't in my Johnny come lately assesment quite down to the level of Borgia, but it most definitely was delving into the Renaissance Papacies political territory with this continuing into the first decade of the 20th century. (EDIT: lets just say many a time I have thought of what things would be like if I had run the papacy from the beginning)

That said, actually knowing the actions the Church (or at least the papacy, Its not like what the local Church does is under my control, and on that score things have come up in updates that have irked me, usually related to being far too closely associated with one party) has done since I took over the joint, and the Church's approximate social doctrine, dogma and so forth (historically IRL and besides) I would say "hypocrisy" is not quite the right word at least since Paul VI to describe the papacies efforts. Since the end of the Italian War the Papacy has been relatively free from questions pertaining to preserving its sovereignty, and thus liberated in regards to religious and "foreign" policy, it has basically transitioned into a policy consisting of two overriding objectives a) condemning impiety and error and b) promoting piety and Catholicism in its place. The call for non-violence in Poland was actually the only ecclesiastical thing (The Papal States as a secular realm obviously has a state to run) since the end of the Italian war I can recall being done that does not immediately fit into one of those two categories (well, that and the Church consigning itself to the existence of Italy relatively quickly unlike IRL), albeit it is entirely consistent with the Catholic philosophical view that sees violent rebellion against rulers as generally illegitimate (based on Romans 13:1 and the render unto Caesar thing). Its not like the call for non-violence came out of thin air, without a pre-existing Catholic position to back it up (ergo, those Catholic Poles shouldn't have been too surprised)

Just a sidenote as well. I would also say that the Church here has a very different lexicon compared to secular ideologues, or the "modern world" so to speak. It doesn't speak the same language as everyone else. The Church clearly exists as such in its own auto-created context, that is quite distinct (although not entirely separate) from the rest of the Capto Iugulum world. Indeed even moralism is outside of the "Ecclesiastical Sphere", it uses (at least in certain contexts like Brazil) a secular ideological lexicon and view just with religion added to the mix. What is also important to remember, is that at this period what you are pretty much seeing is counter-reformation fortress Catholicism alive and kicking, save that the main "enemy" has transitioned from the Protestants, to what many in the Church would likely see as its diabolical secular offspring, liberalism and Proletarism. There is no post-sixties "Church of Nice" in Capto Iugulum.
 
What is also important to remember, is that at this period what you are pretty much seeing is counter-reformation fortress Catholicism alive and kicking, save that the main "enemy" has transitioned from the Protestants, to what many in the Church would likely see as its diabolical secular offspring, liberalism and Proletarism. There is no post-sixties "Church of Nice" in Capto Iugulum.

I like this interpretation a lot, actually. :goodjob:
 
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