christos200
Never tell me the odds
option 1.
Capto Iugulum
- Thread starter EQandcivfanatic
- Start date
christos200
Never tell me the odds
I did not vote twice.
JohannaK
Heroically Clueless
Option 2
Crezth
i knew you were a real man of the left
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
Hey now, voting twice is patriotic!
christos200
Never tell me the odds
The old map was better, because the border between Nations were far better.
TheLizardKing
Let's talk Michelle.
I changed my vote to option two. Then back again to option one.
Well first order of business: No more national backgrounds and so forth will be accepted beyond this point. All remaining so far unfilled nations will be dictated by me. Still, 34 nations done makes my life quite a bit easier. Some of the backgrounds were rejected however, due to varying reasons, and I will not be answering complaints relating to that, simply because it will not end well for anyone.
Second order of business: We are indeed almost evenly split between Options 1 and 2 in regards to the map debate. I guess, once more it comes down to my decision. Here it is: As I am exhausted with map work and indeed, map discussion, we will retain the old map for the time being. It's not the best map, but it has served well enough for the moment. I will revisit the idea of map upgrade after the 1939 update. Beyond that, if any one of you physically chooses to create and establish a new map that is widely deemed superior to the current, we can and will adopt it at any point in time. For now though, I personally am done fiddling with maps.
Third order of business: As follows are some samplings of the new format, specifically relating to government. A quick explanation. A Parliamentary government selects the Head of Government from the legislature, a Constitutional/Executive government features direct elections for the post of Head of Government. From here on out, it is possible that direct elections for an executive could lead to a branch ideologically different than the larger legislature.
Denmark: Grandkhan
Formal Name: Kingdom of Denmark
Parliamentary Monarchy: King Leopold II von Sønderburg (Liberal)
Folketing: Socialdemokraterne (Liberal)
Head of Government: Statsminister Theodore Zahle
Capital: Copenhagen
Manpower: 225 (+3)
Economic Points: 9 (+57)
Domestic Spending : -5 EP
-Education: -5 (3)
Stability: 7
Royal Danish Army: 15 Infantry Brigades, 1 Cavalry Brigade, 8 Artillery Brigades
Army Quality: 12
Army Doctrine: Triple Alliance Army Doctrine 1904
Royal Danish Navy: 10 Kystnaere-class Destroyers, 6 Luther-class Light Cruisers, 1 Eendracht-class Heavy Cruiser, 1 King Juan-class Battleship
Navy Quality: 10
Colonies: 5
Italy: Nailix
Constitutional Monarchy: King Ferdinand Anjou (Conservative)
Parliament: Democratic Society Party (Liberal)
Head of Government: Prime Minister Giuseppe Bernardino (Liberal)
Capital: Naples
Manpower: 4,259 (+41)
Economic Points: 126 (+324)
Domestic Spending : -39 EP
-Education: -39 (43)
Stability: 7
Reale Esercito di Italia: 208 Infantry Brigades, 12 Cavalry Brigades, 44 Artillery Brigades
Army Quality: 9
Army Doctrine: Magyar Birodalmi Army 1916
Reale Marina di Italia: 2 Tridente-class Submarines, 12 Furacão-class Destroyers, 6 Sicilia-class Light Cruisers, 1 Early Heavy Cruiser, 7 Lioness-class Battlecruisers
Navy Quality: 5
Colonies: 5
Netherlands: Zelet Dude
Formal Name: United Republic of the Netherlands
Executive Republic: Center Party (Moderate)
Head of State: Stadtholder Pieter van Bosse
Capital: Antwerp
Manpower: 1,573 (+16)
Economic Points: 1 (+189)
Domestic Spending : -55 EP
-Education: -20 (16)
-Healthcare: -25 (32)
-Pensions: -10 (16)
Stability: 6
National Army of the Republic: 86 Infantry Brigades, 18 Cavalry Brigades, 3 M1916 VB Brigades, 31 Artillery Brigades
Army Quality: 10
Army Doctrine: Confederate Army 1910
Republican Navy: 3 Numancia-class Destroyers, 5 Romanos-class Destroyers, 6 Vigilant-class Destroyers, 6 Magicienne-class Destroyers, 1 Early Light Cruiser, 8 Duisbourg-class Light Cruisers, 4 Eendracht-class Heavy Cruisers, 7 Chasseur-class Battlecruisers, 2 Conquistador-class Battleships, 2 Frisia-class Battleships
Navy Quality: 15
National Air Service: 1 P-16 Fighter Squadron
Air Force Quality: 1
Colonies: 84
Hall of Nations: 58/100
Romania: BILLSIF
Formal Name: Kingdom of Romania
Absolute Monarchy: King Nicholas Obolensky (Conservative)
Capital: Bucharest
Manpower: 1,065 (+12)
Economic Points: 149 (+72)
Domestic Spending: -18 EP
-Education: -18 (11)
Stability: 7
Royal Romanian Land Force: 60 Infantry Brigades, 8 Cavalry Brigades, 28 Artillery Brigades
Army Quality: 11
Army Doctrine: Russian Imperial Army 1910
Scandinavia: Lord of Elves
Formal Name: Worker's Commonwealth of Scandinavia
Proletarist Dictatorship: Syndic Karl Mannerheim (Traditional Proletarist)
Capital: Stockholm
Manpower: 1,088 (+14)
Economic Points: 60 (+312)
Domestic Spending : -15 EP
-Border Security: -3
-Education: -12 (11)
Stability: 8
Fatherland Proletarian Army: 126 Infantry Brigades, 9 Cavalry Brigades, 25 Artillery Brigades
Army Quality: 15
Army Doctrine: Fatherland Proletarian Army 1913
Fatherland Proletarian Navy: 10 Nordenfelt-class Submarines, 6 Romanos-class Destroyers, 24 Vigilant-class Destroyers, 36 Interdictor-class Destroyers, 3 Chasseur-class Battlecruisers, 3 Maryland-class Battleships
Navy Quality: 12
Military Railway: 50/200
Honduras
Formal Name: Republic of Honduras
Parliamentary Republic: The Pesados (Liberal)
Head of Government: President Lopez Pesado
Capital: Tegucigalpa
Manpower: 196 (+2)
Economic Points: 17 (+24)
Domestic Spending: -2 EP
-Education: -2 (2)
Stability: 8
Honduran National Army: 15 Infantry Brigades, 2 Cavalry Brigades, 6 Artillery Brigades
Army Quality: 8
Army Doctrine: British Royal Army 1890
Honduran National Navy: 4 Early Destroyers
Navy Quality: 3
Honduras Air Force: 2 P-16 Fighter Squadrons
Air Force Quality: 1
Second order of business: We are indeed almost evenly split between Options 1 and 2 in regards to the map debate. I guess, once more it comes down to my decision. Here it is: As I am exhausted with map work and indeed, map discussion, we will retain the old map for the time being. It's not the best map, but it has served well enough for the moment. I will revisit the idea of map upgrade after the 1939 update. Beyond that, if any one of you physically chooses to create and establish a new map that is widely deemed superior to the current, we can and will adopt it at any point in time. For now though, I personally am done fiddling with maps.
Third order of business: As follows are some samplings of the new format, specifically relating to government. A quick explanation. A Parliamentary government selects the Head of Government from the legislature, a Constitutional/Executive government features direct elections for the post of Head of Government. From here on out, it is possible that direct elections for an executive could lead to a branch ideologically different than the larger legislature.
Denmark: Grandkhan
Formal Name: Kingdom of Denmark
Parliamentary Monarchy: King Leopold II von Sønderburg (Liberal)
Folketing: Socialdemokraterne (Liberal)
Head of Government: Statsminister Theodore Zahle
Capital: Copenhagen
Manpower: 225 (+3)
Economic Points: 9 (+57)
Domestic Spending : -5 EP
-Education: -5 (3)
Stability: 7
Royal Danish Army: 15 Infantry Brigades, 1 Cavalry Brigade, 8 Artillery Brigades
Army Quality: 12
Army Doctrine: Triple Alliance Army Doctrine 1904
Royal Danish Navy: 10 Kystnaere-class Destroyers, 6 Luther-class Light Cruisers, 1 Eendracht-class Heavy Cruiser, 1 King Juan-class Battleship
Navy Quality: 10
Colonies: 5
Spoiler :
Italy: Nailix
Constitutional Monarchy: King Ferdinand Anjou (Conservative)
Parliament: Democratic Society Party (Liberal)
Head of Government: Prime Minister Giuseppe Bernardino (Liberal)
Capital: Naples
Manpower: 4,259 (+41)
Economic Points: 126 (+324)
Domestic Spending : -39 EP
-Education: -39 (43)
Stability: 7
Reale Esercito di Italia: 208 Infantry Brigades, 12 Cavalry Brigades, 44 Artillery Brigades
Army Quality: 9
Army Doctrine: Magyar Birodalmi Army 1916
Reale Marina di Italia: 2 Tridente-class Submarines, 12 Furacão-class Destroyers, 6 Sicilia-class Light Cruisers, 1 Early Heavy Cruiser, 7 Lioness-class Battlecruisers
Navy Quality: 5
Colonies: 5
Spoiler :
Netherlands: Zelet Dude
Formal Name: United Republic of the Netherlands
Executive Republic: Center Party (Moderate)
Head of State: Stadtholder Pieter van Bosse
Capital: Antwerp
Manpower: 1,573 (+16)
Economic Points: 1 (+189)
Domestic Spending : -55 EP
-Education: -20 (16)
-Healthcare: -25 (32)
-Pensions: -10 (16)
Stability: 6
National Army of the Republic: 86 Infantry Brigades, 18 Cavalry Brigades, 3 M1916 VB Brigades, 31 Artillery Brigades
Army Quality: 10
Army Doctrine: Confederate Army 1910
Republican Navy: 3 Numancia-class Destroyers, 5 Romanos-class Destroyers, 6 Vigilant-class Destroyers, 6 Magicienne-class Destroyers, 1 Early Light Cruiser, 8 Duisbourg-class Light Cruisers, 4 Eendracht-class Heavy Cruisers, 7 Chasseur-class Battlecruisers, 2 Conquistador-class Battleships, 2 Frisia-class Battleships
Navy Quality: 15
National Air Service: 1 P-16 Fighter Squadron
Air Force Quality: 1
Colonies: 84
Spoiler :
Hall of Nations: 58/100
Romania: BILLSIF
Formal Name: Kingdom of Romania
Absolute Monarchy: King Nicholas Obolensky (Conservative)
Capital: Bucharest
Manpower: 1,065 (+12)
Economic Points: 149 (+72)
Domestic Spending: -18 EP
-Education: -18 (11)
Stability: 7
Royal Romanian Land Force: 60 Infantry Brigades, 8 Cavalry Brigades, 28 Artillery Brigades
Army Quality: 11
Army Doctrine: Russian Imperial Army 1910
Scandinavia: Lord of Elves
Formal Name: Worker's Commonwealth of Scandinavia
Proletarist Dictatorship: Syndic Karl Mannerheim (Traditional Proletarist)
Capital: Stockholm
Manpower: 1,088 (+14)
Economic Points: 60 (+312)
Domestic Spending : -15 EP
-Border Security: -3
-Education: -12 (11)
Stability: 8
Fatherland Proletarian Army: 126 Infantry Brigades, 9 Cavalry Brigades, 25 Artillery Brigades
Army Quality: 15
Army Doctrine: Fatherland Proletarian Army 1913
Fatherland Proletarian Navy: 10 Nordenfelt-class Submarines, 6 Romanos-class Destroyers, 24 Vigilant-class Destroyers, 36 Interdictor-class Destroyers, 3 Chasseur-class Battlecruisers, 3 Maryland-class Battleships
Navy Quality: 12
Military Railway: 50/200
Honduras
Formal Name: Republic of Honduras
Parliamentary Republic: The Pesados (Liberal)
Head of Government: President Lopez Pesado
Capital: Tegucigalpa
Manpower: 196 (+2)
Economic Points: 17 (+24)
Domestic Spending: -2 EP
-Education: -2 (2)
Stability: 8
Honduran National Army: 15 Infantry Brigades, 2 Cavalry Brigades, 6 Artillery Brigades
Army Quality: 8
Army Doctrine: British Royal Army 1890
Honduran National Navy: 4 Early Destroyers
Navy Quality: 3
Honduras Air Force: 2 P-16 Fighter Squadrons
Air Force Quality: 1
Ah yes, almost forgot: What ya'll can do now.
At this point, we're shifting away from the practical things that need to be done (unless you're a brave soul who wants to make a whole new map, I warn you it can be tough). Now I'd like to shift our focus to discussion of flavor stuff and the legibility of the front page. Therefore, here's a few questions from me to think about and discuss:
1. Thoughts on a total population stat. This stat would NOT be updated each turn like manpower, but rather altered via "census" every 10 years or so. I believe this may be handy for some of you, but it could also serve as a detriment due to the fact that it would not be regularly updated. Though I will confess, it is plausible I could update it regularly, but I'm concerned that I may not be able to get to such a thing. Alternatively I could provide the official formula for calculating your approximate total population based on your manpower stat on the front page, and you could sort it out as needed, without me having to do extra work.
2. The Terminology/Staying in Character Post: Does it need updating? What concepts do we possess in this universe that need clarification to newer players? To you newer players, what concepts being thrown about by other players are confusing and need further explanation?
3. Here's an important economic one: Deficit Spending. In other words, would you be willing to allow for the possibility of spending into EP debt if you had to to complete projects or mobilize larger military forces? I'll admit I'm heavily concerned about a balance issue if deficit spending is allowed, as it would allow small nations to wield disproportionate military force. On the other hand, I would like to punish people for being unable to pay their debts. Deficit Spending WILL enter the ruleset eventually, but it is currently slated for a later thread shift. It of course comes with as many stability/economic dangers as you might imagine, and could be dangerous for someone not fully aware of the consequences. I could also mention that based on my reading, economists and political theorists are both heavily divided on the merit and usefulness of deficit spending, especially in the current global environment.
At this point, we're shifting away from the practical things that need to be done (unless you're a brave soul who wants to make a whole new map, I warn you it can be tough). Now I'd like to shift our focus to discussion of flavor stuff and the legibility of the front page. Therefore, here's a few questions from me to think about and discuss:
1. Thoughts on a total population stat. This stat would NOT be updated each turn like manpower, but rather altered via "census" every 10 years or so. I believe this may be handy for some of you, but it could also serve as a detriment due to the fact that it would not be regularly updated. Though I will confess, it is plausible I could update it regularly, but I'm concerned that I may not be able to get to such a thing. Alternatively I could provide the official formula for calculating your approximate total population based on your manpower stat on the front page, and you could sort it out as needed, without me having to do extra work.
2. The Terminology/Staying in Character Post: Does it need updating? What concepts do we possess in this universe that need clarification to newer players? To you newer players, what concepts being thrown about by other players are confusing and need further explanation?
3. Here's an important economic one: Deficit Spending. In other words, would you be willing to allow for the possibility of spending into EP debt if you had to to complete projects or mobilize larger military forces? I'll admit I'm heavily concerned about a balance issue if deficit spending is allowed, as it would allow small nations to wield disproportionate military force. On the other hand, I would like to punish people for being unable to pay their debts. Deficit Spending WILL enter the ruleset eventually, but it is currently slated for a later thread shift. It of course comes with as many stability/economic dangers as you might imagine, and could be dangerous for someone not fully aware of the consequences. I could also mention that based on my reading, economists and political theorists are both heavily divided on the merit and usefulness of deficit spending, especially in the current global environment.
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
I support deficit spending with the bank being either negative or positive to reflect that. Also people need to know that Proletarism is not communism.
JohannaK
Heroically Clueless
So they are in fact different?
christos200
Never tell me the odds
I predict that Pontus background was one of them, right?
Well proletarism is interesting, because as with communism, it takes on a definition as established by the states which have created it. Now, by reckoning we have had multiple states which have adopted various forms of proletarism. There have been three states were social proletarists have been elected into office upon concepts of social reform: Netherlands , Vinland, and Pomerania. As Pomerania has been absorbed, I'd say that the true burden of definition for social proletarism (which seems to be mostly in line with OTL socialism) falls upon Lord Iggy and Zelet Dude. I look towards your insights to how social proletarism has been put into practice in respect to your nations.
Similarly there have been three nations where revolutions have installed traditional proletarist governments. First in Scandinavia, and frankly, I think it would be helpful to us all if Lord of Elves went in depth to discuss exactly what proletarism means and is for his country. Second we had Ecuador, though that is irrelevant due to the recent Peruvian/Colombian intervention. Lastly, we have the negrotariat revolution in the United States. Now, this particular revolution is still in its early stages, and has been formed by a mostly uneducated lower class, meaning that there's a number of ways that such a revolution could evolve.
In short summary: my current listing of proletarism is based upon the ideals of the various ideologies as laid out by nineteenth century thinkers. I'd wager though that the evolution of the ideology in the past 20 years is something well worth discussing.
Similarly there have been three nations where revolutions have installed traditional proletarist governments. First in Scandinavia, and frankly, I think it would be helpful to us all if Lord of Elves went in depth to discuss exactly what proletarism means and is for his country. Second we had Ecuador, though that is irrelevant due to the recent Peruvian/Colombian intervention. Lastly, we have the negrotariat revolution in the United States. Now, this particular revolution is still in its early stages, and has been formed by a mostly uneducated lower class, meaning that there's a number of ways that such a revolution could evolve.
In short summary: my current listing of proletarism is based upon the ideals of the various ideologies as laid out by nineteenth century thinkers. I'd wager though that the evolution of the ideology in the past 20 years is something well worth discussing.
I've typically pictured Lord of Elves' form of Traditional Proletarism to be fundamentally syndicalist in nature. After the revolution, Syndic Mannerheim assumed an essentially dictatorial position, forcibly unionizing the nation. These unions now form the major power bodies of the Manniskorstag, as representation is achieved through these unions. However, the Workers Commonwealth lacks the ability to remove its current executives, or to vote to alter their government structure (and the self-interest of the unions, keen to protect their influence, places strong disincentive for such reform to take place), so it ultimately becomes a Syndicalist Dictatorship.
ChiefDesigner has elucidated to me a fascinating picture of the UPRA's form o ftraditional proletarism, which has been strongly shaped by the tribulations of the enslaved population of black Americans over the past several centuries. He could likely describe it far better than I.
Vinland's form of Social Proletarism is rooted in the liberal reforms of Queen Kristina I of Vinland (Who served simultaneously as the Queen-Empress of Scandinavia), which granted electoral representation to Vinland after agitation by the unrepresented population of the Scandinavian colony.
Currently, Vinland's governing paradigm is social proletarism, tempered by democracy. Vinland has many laws enshrining the rights of workers, requiring the provision of a safe workplace, pensions, free public education and training programs for adults, and a social safety net. Similarly, the right to unionize and engage in organized labour has become well-established over the past two decades.
Vinland's social proletarism is actually quite close to laissez-faire capitalism in terms of economic policy. The only crown corporation is presently the Västra Skandinaviska Järnvägen (the national railroad, which also possesses many river and seagoing ships), whose primary shareholder is the King and Riksdag. Provided that corporations all follow the same set of rules, they are free to operate as they wish. Vinland does not presently have great deals of oversight or quota systems for resource harvesting- however, declining whale stocks and scientific inquiry into the natural world have led to some concerns that such resource management systems may need to be created in the future. Overall, it would be accurate to say that we have great deals of legislation relating to workers, but very little outside of this specific area.
Contrary to its rather progressive labour policy, Vinland is comparatively socially conservative. Women's rights are presently fairly limited, though attitudes seem to be changing significantly, particularly amongst younger Vinlanders, and it seems likely that the upcoming 1920 referendum on women's suffrage will be passed. Divorce is frowned upon, as are most forms of social deviance. The only formally recognized religious organization is the Vinlandic Lutheran Church, and the King of Vinland is the church's protector. That is not to say that Vinlanders of other faiths (primarily Catholics of Polish and German origin, Orthodox Christians of Russian extraction, and various Protestants with American heritage, primarily baptists) are discriminated against, merely that they are not recognized in the Vinlandic constitution.
ChiefDesigner has elucidated to me a fascinating picture of the UPRA's form o ftraditional proletarism, which has been strongly shaped by the tribulations of the enslaved population of black Americans over the past several centuries. He could likely describe it far better than I.
Vinland's form of Social Proletarism is rooted in the liberal reforms of Queen Kristina I of Vinland (Who served simultaneously as the Queen-Empress of Scandinavia), which granted electoral representation to Vinland after agitation by the unrepresented population of the Scandinavian colony.
Currently, Vinland's governing paradigm is social proletarism, tempered by democracy. Vinland has many laws enshrining the rights of workers, requiring the provision of a safe workplace, pensions, free public education and training programs for adults, and a social safety net. Similarly, the right to unionize and engage in organized labour has become well-established over the past two decades.
Vinland's social proletarism is actually quite close to laissez-faire capitalism in terms of economic policy. The only crown corporation is presently the Västra Skandinaviska Järnvägen (the national railroad, which also possesses many river and seagoing ships), whose primary shareholder is the King and Riksdag. Provided that corporations all follow the same set of rules, they are free to operate as they wish. Vinland does not presently have great deals of oversight or quota systems for resource harvesting- however, declining whale stocks and scientific inquiry into the natural world have led to some concerns that such resource management systems may need to be created in the future. Overall, it would be accurate to say that we have great deals of legislation relating to workers, but very little outside of this specific area.
Contrary to its rather progressive labour policy, Vinland is comparatively socially conservative. Women's rights are presently fairly limited, though attitudes seem to be changing significantly, particularly amongst younger Vinlanders, and it seems likely that the upcoming 1920 referendum on women's suffrage will be passed. Divorce is frowned upon, as are most forms of social deviance. The only formally recognized religious organization is the Vinlandic Lutheran Church, and the King of Vinland is the church's protector. That is not to say that Vinlanders of other faiths (primarily Catholics of Polish and German origin, Orthodox Christians of Russian extraction, and various Protestants with American heritage, primarily baptists) are discriminated against, merely that they are not recognized in the Vinlandic constitution.
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
Brazil has both freedom of religion, with recognition, and women's suffrage. 
We do not allow free unionization though, to counter the very threatening proletarist leanings of those groups.
We do not allow free unionization though, to counter the very threatening proletarist leanings of those groups.
