warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
Even if that was true (I'm not saying it is or isn't), so what?
People are going to get offended.. big deal. Get offended, and get over it.. and move on with your life, like a normal person.
Cartoon Shooting in Denmark
- Thread starter dutchfire
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Even if that was true (I'm not saying it is or isn't), so what?
People are going to get offended.. big deal. Get offended, and get over it.. and move on with your life, like a normal person.
You don't wear sexy clothes b/c you want to be assaulted. You (probably) wear them to get attention, maybe by arousing the passions of some, maybe by shocking and offending others. Similarly, the cartoon makers made those cartoons to draw attention to the subject maybe by arousing the passions of those who agree with the sentiment and also by shocking/offending others.
The cartoon makers are not "asking for it" by publishing the material, but at the same time, its disingenuous for them to pretend that they didn't expect a multitude of reactions both negative and positive.
The cartoon makers are not "asking for it" by publishing the material, but at the same time, its disingenuous for them to pretend that they didn't expect a multitude of reactions both negative and positive.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
Either way, getting offended is a part of life. You deal with it like a normal person.
You do not have a right to not be offended.
You do not have a right to not be offended.
I agree, but as I said before, the anti-bullying movement seems to disagree. The prevailing sentiment that seems to be growing is that you do indeed have a right to not be offended, insulted, ridiculed etc.
Borachio
Way past lunacy
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Shouldn't the general atmosphere be one of mutual respect? Wouldn't that be a good thing?
And while we don't owe each other admiration, isn't the default one of respect?
We've all got the right to walk down the street sneering at all and sundry, but that's hardly a recipe for a better world. Or is it?
And while we don't owe each other admiration, isn't the default one of respect?
We've all got the right to walk down the street sneering at all and sundry, but that's hardly a recipe for a better world. Or is it?
Akka
Moody old mage.
Being bullied is a completely different concept from being offended.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
I'm not sure which anti-bullying efforts you are referencing, but bullying is very different your run of the mill "getting offended".
We should definitely be helping all efforts to stop bullying - but that really has nothing to do with the fact that nobody has a right to not be offended.
Being bullied is sometimes different from getting offended. Sometimes bullying means various people repeatedly calling you names and/or saying irritating, offensive and/or annoying things to ridicule you or your religion, race, gender, weight etc. and or drawing sketches or cartoons or passing notes/emails/texts around to mock and/or humiliate you...
My point is I grew up learning that this kind of thing happens and you have to be able to absorb it and move on rather than acting out violently. Nowadays...not so much are kids taught that...
My point is I grew up learning that this kind of thing happens and you have to be able to absorb it and move on rather than acting out violently. Nowadays...not so much are kids taught that...
Exactly, and I think its ironic that we can stop teaching our kids to "suck it up and deal" when it comes to bullying, in favor of teaching them that their "rights" have been violated and the violators need to be expelled/suspended/severely punished... while simultaneously being confused and shocked when offended people react violently to cartoons mocking them... Well they can't very well suspend us from school or hold a PTA conference to air their grievances can they?
Its also ironic that we will on the one hand say that the bigger, richer, prettier kids mocking the not-so kids is bullying while simultaneously arguing that our rich, powerful, educated, prosperous, developed countries mocking the religion of some less-so smaller weaker, poorer countries is "totally different" from bullying
classical_hero
In whom I trust
Thanks for getting the point I was making. Basically are we going to blame the victim of the perpetrator?
Verbose
Deity
Actually, what's striking in the Copenhagen situation is the degree to which the gun-man was met by instant armed response by the police.
As for the difficultues of preventing a nutter getting a gun and going on a shooting the problem here is that this individual was a known criminal, with established links to criminal gangs. Those ALWAYS manage to get their hands on guns. This fellow had an assortment of them, but the initial attack against the free-speech seminar was carried iut using a Danish army military issue AK. He had apparently just got out of jail, and the reasoning now is that somehow he "found religion" and radicalised while doing his stint locked up.
Nevertheless, there were three parts to this situation. The gun-man first tried to force his way into the venue of the free-speech seminar through a back-door, ostensibly to get specifically at the Swedish artist Lars Vilks speaking there. He killed one man (a Danish film director) and wounded two more (at least one a police officer). But he was met by an immediate armed response, two Swedish police officers (Vilks bodyguards) and three Danish officers all discharging their weapons at him, making him abort the attack. (He may have been wearing some kind of bofy armour at the time. The officers involved seem to feel they score some solid hits he just shrugged off.)
He then went to the synagogue. There was an event involving a score or so Jewish children going on inside at the time. However, the Copenhagen police had already decided the place could use som extra security, and so there were armed guards outside the synagogue when the gun-man turned up. He still attacked, killing a security guard, but the again the moved off, unable to get at the synagogue and the event inside.
He was finally cornered by officers of the Copenhagen police. The idiot then apparently pulled two handguns and let fly at the officers two-hand style. Uncertain if that would could as "suicide by police", since he might have been daft enough to think he could shoot himself out of the situation, but the officers present dropped him instantly expending som 30 rounds.
All in all, it could have been a lot worse, but what's striking is that at every juncture, he faced not unarmed civilians alone, but also armed police protecting them. The officers weren't 100% successful, but compare it for instance to how the Charlie Hebdo attack went down.
wolfigor
Emperor
Which cartoons are we talking about?
If I remember correctly none of the "original" Danish cartoons from a few years ago ever depicted anybody as a dog.
Anyway, even if they did... why someone has to take personal offence?
If somebody creates such cartoon, God will punish him/her in hell
If somebody reads and appreciate the cartoon, same as above
The pious person who doesn't read the cartoon but only hear about it, why should get offended?
He isn't really forced to see and love it , the pious person can just say "silly idiots, they will burn in hell for a silly cartoon" and move on with his life.
Anyway, there are some positive actions that deserve to be promoted as a good way for the Muslim community to show that such extremist do no represent them:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...form-a-human-shield-around-an-oslo-synagogue/
Verbose
Deity
Nooo...
The Swedish artist Lars Vilks attended an "art exhibit" at some municipal centre in the Swedish sticks, and the Big Theme of its exhibit was "roundabout dogs" — cutesy little doggie sculptures put up to enliven the traffic environment, placed in roundabouts. Iirc this was back in 2007.
Vilks — who's a quite acerbic of the more inane populist aspects of the Swedish art scene — he has this idea that art maybe should matter — drew a cartoon of a "roundabout dog" of his own, to provoke that insipid Swedish art world. Only, since it was kind of in the news at the time, to add some extra bite to it all, he put what was claimed to be the prophet Muhammad's face on it.
Now,Vilks should have been aware that it was controversial, that's why he did it, but his actual dig was at the Swedish art world. The Muslims kind of got dragged along for the ride at the time it seems. Except in retrospect the situation has obviously become reversed.
Link to the pic in question btw:
http://www.vilks.net/2007/07/21/mot-framtiden-konstens-granser/
aelf
Ashen One
That's very enlightening. It sure paints a different picture from what you get from the media, which seems to portray some kind of helplessness on the part of the authorities and society as a whole.
And, yes, it seems like this incident is more of a twist to a gang problem than a terrorist problem.
Borachio
Way past lunacy
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That's all true. And no doubt the majority of Muslims do exactly that.
A few, though, don't. And those few are the ones who make the headlines.
classical_hero
In whom I trust
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/feb/21/hundreds-line-up-for-burial-of-omar-el-hussein-cop/
They estimate about 500 people "honoured" the man who committed the crime. This doesn't bode very well for Denmark.
They estimate about 500 people "honoured" the man who committed the crime. This doesn't bode very well for Denmark.
Borachio
Way past lunacy
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I noticed that. I, too, am sad that a young man of 22 is dead. And that his death was the result of him thinking he should kill other people. And that, apparently, the only way to prevent more killings was by killing him.
I don't think there are any winners in this.
Oh, will you look that: "Times of Israel".
I don't think there are any winners in this.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/hundreds-attend-funeral-of-copenhagen-terrorist/
Oh, will you look that: "Times of Israel".
aelf
Ashen One
I guess we can add "Attending the funeral of a person you don't like" to the Christian fundamentalist list of banned things.
