1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Cassiel and Luonnotar

Discussion in 'Fall from Heaven Lore' started by jimi12, May 15, 2008.

  1. jimi12

    jimi12 Half Jedi

    Joined:
    May 20, 2006
    Messages:
    324
    Location:
    WA State
    i remember reading that cassiel doesnt revere or promote worship of the one and that the gods were confused as to where the luonnotar got the info that there is a true "One" god. However reading Cassiel's pedia entry, it seems like he talks about it quite often. -

    Cassiel smiled at me. "The places they have made are not heaven, the true heaven is closed to everyone, even them. One day the doors will open and we will be rejoined. Until then we wait and we try to improve what we have been given."

    So i am confused as to how much cassiel is involved with the luonnator and why the gods would be so confused that the luonnator have this info if the angels know about it.
     
  2. merciary

    merciary No idea what I'm doing

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2006
    Messages:
    1,541
    Location:
    OSU
    From what I understand (MC will come and correct or confirm this soon) he didn't tell them anything, they found it out on their own. Naturally they were thrown out of every other nation, I mean who wants or will believe a group of of people who claim that the gods you are worshiping are false when they can create miracles like that. So Cassiel gave them shelter and allowed them to take up shop in the Grigori lands.
     
  3. jimi12

    jimi12 Half Jedi

    Joined:
    May 20, 2006
    Messages:
    324
    Location:
    WA State
    that was how i understood it also but then i read Cassiel's pedia entry and he is telling people about the One and how he closed the true heaven from creation.
     
  4. Mewtarthio

    Mewtarthio Emperor

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2004
    Messages:
    1,930
    But he isn't mentioning The One at all; just the idea that the gods are not the only path to heaven. I dont think the Luonnatar were associated with the Grigori before Cassiel took them in.

    I've heard one theory that they've stumbled upon the truth purely by accident--a lucky guess, as it were--but Junil still refused to harm them because he knew they were not really blaspheming.
     
  5. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2007
    Messages:
    16,256
    Location:
    Kael's head
    I'm slightly confused about it too. Of course, Cassiel was talking to a dead girl, so it is possible (although it seems unlikely) that he never mentions the One to the living but speaks of him freely to the dead. (He doesn't exactly mention the One n this entry anyway, although he comes close)

    I think that Cassiel probably does revere The One, but doesn't believe that the One wants to be worshiped. He sees the other gods' desire to be worshiped to be childish, selfish, and foolish, and respects The One too much to assume he is like them. "Dreams, desire, worship and want" were part of Agares' original sphere of Hope, so it makes sense that the of worship itself might be considered fallen and that Cassiel views it as evil regardless the object of worship. (Although I'd probably side with the Luonnatar and say that claiming properly directed worship to be evil because of Agares's fall is the equivalent of claiming sleep is evil because of Mulcarn, that Peace is evil because of Camulos, that physical fitness is evil because of Aeron, etc. Their spheres do not become pure evil because they are misused. abusio non premit usionem) He believes that humans should not rely on blind faith, but on themselves and each other.


    However, Cassiel has never met The One, so he has only the words of the original angels (mostly Dagda, I'd guess) and of the Luonnatar to base his views upon. The current Fall from Heaven history seems to say the archangels (and angels below these) were not created until after The One shut the lesser gods out of the true heaven. Humanity is older than they are, although each true Angel had already created other planes which were teeming with lifeforms before they came together to make Erebus and Mankind.



    I also wonder what happened to Nemed, who, despite losing his precept, is surely as immortal as Os-Gabella. I have wondered if this father of all mankind might have revealed the truth to his children. He might be among the Luonnatar even now.


    Kael has stated that the Luonnatar's magic immunity is to represent the one instance when Junil refused to harm the Luonnatar when his priests tried to use Pillar of Fire to execute them, and demonstrated the strength of their divinity. Instead he freed them from the ropes that bound them,and they walked away unharmed. It is stated that he spared them because they were right, and was hocked that they knew such things since no god had told their followers. He was also afraid that The One had come back and taught the Luonnatar, and that he might not be happy with the gods.

    Although the (Good and Neutral) gods themselves refuse to harm them, their perceived blasphemy continued to incite anger in those faithful to any god, and so the Luonnatar continued to be persecuted. Cassiel gave them sanctuary in his lands, but he does not encourage anyone to join them because (as previously stated) he does not think The One wants worship, and in general thinks that religious faith is a bad thing that prevents us from being self sufficient and enlightened. He isn't fanatically anti-religious though: he thinks that fanaticism and division over beliefs if the greatest problem with religion, and that an anti-religion could become as harmful an ideology if repressing any religion were allowed. He would give refuge to people on any faith (although he might not personally like them), so long as they did not do evil against their fellow man in the name of their faith.


    It does seem odd that the gods would all keep The One secret though. It is specifically pointed out that the creatures of Nyx were not told of the One or the other angels. It sounded like this was a sign of his fallen state, striking a distinction between Nyx and the worlds the angels made before the One took the power of Creation from them. I find it especially hard to believe that Sirona, Goddess of Wisdom, or Lugus, God of Truth, would willfully hide the truth from their most devout followers.
     
  6. Kael

    Kael Deity

    Joined:
    May 6, 2002
    Messages:
    17,401
    Location:
    Ohio
    The real purpose of that pedia entry is to get across a feel for the motivation and character of Cassiel. Because of that I had to take certain liberties with what he was willing to discuss. Typically he would never talk about it. Maybe he was drunk. ;)

    There are multiple reasons the gods dont talk about the one. It could be their own ego, it could be that they dont believe humanity will respect them if they knew, it could be that they believe it will hurt humanity to know (there is a real god, but he abandoned you). For the best gods, Sirona and such, the reason is that the One choose to seperate himself from creation. They see that as more than a physical seperation, and are unwilling to undo that by revealing him.
     
  7. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2007
    Messages:
    16,256
    Location:
    Kael's head
    So, do all the angels know? Obviously the Original 21 know, but (as I stated in my last post) the newer versions of the History seem to say that all the other angels were created after The One departed (which was after the creation of Humanity). Are the gods only keeping knowledge from mortals, or from everyone?
     
  8. Kael

    Kael Deity

    Joined:
    May 6, 2002
    Messages:
    17,401
    Location:
    Ohio
    I never really thought about it. The players never heard about the One god except through a brief encounter with the luonnotar (they party wasnt sure what to make of them).

    Its kinda hard when our knowledge differs from that of the characters. I considered not even revealing the info about the one and having the mythology be as thepeople of erebus understand it rather than the truth. But the true story answers a lot of the questions that i think are inherent in most mythologys (why are gods imperfect, why are people imperfect, why does evil exist, what is the link between man and the divine, why are we here).

    Cassiel knows, so we can assume that the archangels know. The gods and the archangels were at the 7 pines when the compact was forged, and I would assume it was a major topic of discussion. Outside of that, I dont know if it would have been passed on to other true angels. I doubt it would have gone to many.

    I always thought there was some secret about the One kept in the vault of Oghma, and that was what Mammon was going for when he attacked. But I never decided what it was.
     
  9. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2007
    Messages:
    16,256
    Location:
    Kael's head
    So, it is confirmed that the Archangels were at the signing of the compact? Did they sign too? This could finally settle my question of whether Cernunnos is vulnerable to the Godslayer.


    I was just thinking that it would be interesting if The One had never been revealed to the archangels (or anyone else) until the meeting at the twelve pines. Of course, there are still things that seem to imply that the creatures of all the worlds made before Nyx should have already had knowledge of the One.

    I think it could answer at lot of questions if Agares had insisted that revealing The One to mortals (or maybe to anyone not present at the seven pines) would constitute a serious breach of the compact. If The One was more widely known before this, it would also require the Gods somehow obfuscate the truth.


    This seems like it would really upset Cassiel, more so even than the powers that the gods were still allowed to wield. In my mind, this is the real reason he chose to fall. Before calling for the compact he merely wanted peace, but learning the truth moved him into outright dystheism. He could not bring himself to respect even Dagda anymore, and so chose to fall. However, he is still bound by the compact and thus unable to reveal the truth about the One to anyone, no mater how much he wants to do so. What he did say to that dead little girl came dangerously close to revealing The One (although he technically didn't), which I imagine might entitle Agares to slaughter all those who heard and maybe claim their souls as well.



    I like to think that Sirona (and/or Lugus) added one last amendment to the Compact: if any mortals manage to discover the truth of the One on their own, without any divine guidance (except from The One), then no god may act to silence them. Furthermore, the gods could not allow their power to be channeled and used against them. (I realize though that this part doesn't fit with what we know about Arawn needed to withdraw from creation entirely to prevent mortals from channeling life and death, but perhaps this power, like the power to kill a god, is possible only when all the gods act together.) Agares agreed, thinking this could never happen and so the restriction was a moot point. This way, we can have Luonnatar that are truly immune to magic, not merely at the mercy of the gods to power is called against them. He has only recently come to regret this decision.


    I still wonder how Nemed could tie into this. He obviously knew of The One, he is truly immortal and so must still be around, and he was not at the compact and thus not bound by it. I wonder though, if Nemed did found the Luonnatar, could that be considered divine intervention? Is he in hiding now for fear that proof of his involvement could mean the Luonnatar would be vulnerable to Agares' wrath? Did he find some way to escape to the true heaven? Is there still a way for direct communication with The One? Does only Oghma know?
     
  10. Kael

    Kael Deity

    Joined:
    May 6, 2002
    Messages:
    17,401
    Location:
    Ohio
    Many good points. The only one I know for sure is that the archangels did not "sign" the compact (so Cernunnos/Cassiel/Hyborem/Basium didn't agree to it). In fact Cassiel and Basium abandoned the meeting before it was complete. Whether that makes them immune to its effects or if Cernunnos is immune to the godslayer or not is unknown.

    We do know that the archangels are a lot more directly active on Erebus than the gods are, especially in being able to physically enter it. If this is allowed by the compact or if they are ignoring that aspect is also unknown. Many archangles seem to do it, of all alignments, and we dont have any indication of a punishment for their actions. But on the other side Sabathiel seems intent not to enter Erebus because "he is following the strictest possible interpetation of the compact". But we know Junil's angels can be a bit dogmatic.
     
  11. Avahz Darkwood

    Avahz Darkwood Emperor

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2001
    Messages:
    1,220
    Location:
    Behind You!!!!
    Not only are those Archangles entering creation but some of the gods playthings (dragons) are also returning of their own free will... And I would assume that they would be bound by those same rules the Angles are. IE if they can enter with out breaking the compac so can the dragon re awaken to creation. The way it appears is that only the gods are bound and as such would be the only ones that can be killed by the sword. (not that a powerful warrior couldnt use the sword and kill angles and dragons by his own skilled hands)
     
  12. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2007
    Messages:
    16,256
    Location:
    Kael's head
    I know this is thread necromancy, but I thought I would share a 'pedia entry that i just wrote for the Children of The One religion that I have added to my modmod. (I came across this thread first when I was looking for the original religion design thread in order to borrow Kael's description of the Cult of the Dragon, which I have reimplemented.)

     
  13. Acrux

    Acrux Warlord

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2006
    Messages:
    134
    Gender:
    Male
    Very interesting. I've always been fascinated by the Luonnotar. Will an updated version of your modmod be available soon?
     
  14. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2007
    Messages:
    16,256
    Location:
    Kael's head
    Possibly.

    I'm basing it on Tholal's More Naval AI this time, and might want to wait until he releases his next version in hope of certain upcoming improvements.


    Right now I'm trying to figure out a couple issues with BUG.

    Edit: I found what was causing the "UnitUtil failed to initialize error" (typos in default units for two unitclasses) and fix the problem. I still haven't figured out how to make BUG work work properly with its CvGameInterfaceFile.py like its makers recommend, but I don't think I actually need to do so.

    I could get it ready to release a version know, but I'd like to wait at least until Tholal can give me an estimate of how long it will take him to release his next version. It has some very nice improvements planned, and I'd hate to release my mod without them if I'd only have to wait a day or two to include them.


    By the way, did anyone recognize the name I gave that Luonnotar? It is the Hebrew name of one of the three boys in the biblical Book of Daniel that King Nebuchadnezzar threw into the fiery furnace for refusing to worship a false idol, but were unharmed by the flames because of their faith. Most people know them as Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, but those are the names that the Babylonians gave them in order to replace references to the God of Israel with names of the false gods of Babylon. Their Hebrew names were Hananiah, Mishahel, and Azariah. The meaning of the name Mishahel (it does not have the second h in most English transliterations but does in Latin, in order to make it clear that the Hebrew name has 3 syllables) is the question "Who is like God?" and implies that the false gods of either Babylon or Erebus cannot compare to The One True God. The story of the Luonnotar has always reminded me of this tale from Daniel, so I thought the name choice seemed quite appropriate.
     
  15. Kyzarc Fotjage

    Kyzarc Fotjage Rise Up

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Messages:
    1,156
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Western Washington
    I was under the impression that Os-Gabella had Nemed imprisoned in her dungeon, where she was studying him through torture in her endless quest to commit suicide. Has this changed, was always just some fan-fic thingy I read, or am I misremembering something?
     
  16. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2007
    Messages:
    16,256
    Location:
    Kael's head
    Os-Gabella does indeed have Nemed prisoner and is experimenting on him to find ways to kill herself. That is in Os-Gabella's civilopedia entry. I did not say anything that conflicts with that.
     
  17. Kyzarc Fotjage

    Kyzarc Fotjage Rise Up

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Messages:
    1,156
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Western Washington
    You had said that "He might be among the Luonnatar even now", but I hadn't checked the dates on the posts, so I thought that this was some recent revelation instead of speculation from four years ago. Terribly sorry about that.
     
  18. Diavolo Rosso

    Diavolo Rosso Lord Giggles

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2010
    Messages:
    192
    Location:
    NY
    gotta say i liked the story. nice touch with the names btw. i didn't make the connection with the names but the fire not burning believers was hard to miss.
     
  19. talonschild

    talonschild Drive-By NESer

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,954
    Location:
    Vancouver, BC, Canada
    I'd have liked the Prior to have survived, though. If only to watch the Luonnotar walk away.
     

Share This Page