Cassiel and Luonnotar

jimi12

Half Jedi
Joined
May 20, 2006
Messages
324
Location
WA State
i remember reading that cassiel doesnt revere or promote worship of the one and that the gods were confused as to where the luonnotar got the info that there is a true "One" god. However reading Cassiel's pedia entry, it seems like he talks about it quite often. -

Cassiel smiled at me. "The places they have made are not heaven, the true heaven is closed to everyone, even them. One day the doors will open and we will be rejoined. Until then we wait and we try to improve what we have been given."

So i am confused as to how much cassiel is involved with the luonnator and why the gods would be so confused that the luonnator have this info if the angels know about it.
 
From what I understand (MC will come and correct or confirm this soon) he didn't tell them anything, they found it out on their own. Naturally they were thrown out of every other nation, I mean who wants or will believe a group of of people who claim that the gods you are worshiping are false when they can create miracles like that. So Cassiel gave them shelter and allowed them to take up shop in the Grigori lands.
 
that was how i understood it also but then i read Cassiel's pedia entry and he is telling people about the One and how he closed the true heaven from creation.
 
But he isn't mentioning The One at all; just the idea that the gods are not the only path to heaven. I dont think the Luonnatar were associated with the Grigori before Cassiel took them in.

I've heard one theory that they've stumbled upon the truth purely by accident--a lucky guess, as it were--but Junil still refused to harm them because he knew they were not really blaspheming.
 
I'm slightly confused about it too. Of course, Cassiel was talking to a dead girl, so it is possible (although it seems unlikely) that he never mentions the One to the living but speaks of him freely to the dead. (He doesn't exactly mention the One n this entry anyway, although he comes close)

I think that Cassiel probably does revere The One, but doesn't believe that the One wants to be worshiped. He sees the other gods' desire to be worshiped to be childish, selfish, and foolish, and respects The One too much to assume he is like them. "Dreams, desire, worship and want" were part of Agares' original sphere of Hope, so it makes sense that the of worship itself might be considered fallen and that Cassiel views it as evil regardless the object of worship. (Although I'd probably side with the Luonnatar and say that claiming properly directed worship to be evil because of Agares's fall is the equivalent of claiming sleep is evil because of Mulcarn, that Peace is evil because of Camulos, that physical fitness is evil because of Aeron, etc. Their spheres do not become pure evil because they are misused. abusio non premit usionem) He believes that humans should not rely on blind faith, but on themselves and each other.


However, Cassiel has never met The One, so he has only the words of the original angels (mostly Dagda, I'd guess) and of the Luonnatar to base his views upon. The current Fall from Heaven history seems to say the archangels (and angels below these) were not created until after The One shut the lesser gods out of the true heaven. Humanity is older than they are, although each true Angel had already created other planes which were teeming with lifeforms before they came together to make Erebus and Mankind.



I also wonder what happened to Nemed, who, despite losing his precept, is surely as immortal as Os-Gabella. I have wondered if this father of all mankind might have revealed the truth to his children. He might be among the Luonnatar even now.


Kael has stated that the Luonnatar's magic immunity is to represent the one instance when Junil refused to harm the Luonnatar when his priests tried to use Pillar of Fire to execute them, and demonstrated the strength of their divinity. Instead he freed them from the ropes that bound them,and they walked away unharmed. It is stated that he spared them because they were right, and was hocked that they knew such things since no god had told their followers. He was also afraid that The One had come back and taught the Luonnatar, and that he might not be happy with the gods.

Although the (Good and Neutral) gods themselves refuse to harm them, their perceived blasphemy continued to incite anger in those faithful to any god, and so the Luonnatar continued to be persecuted. Cassiel gave them sanctuary in his lands, but he does not encourage anyone to join them because (as previously stated) he does not think The One wants worship, and in general thinks that religious faith is a bad thing that prevents us from being self sufficient and enlightened. He isn't fanatically anti-religious though: he thinks that fanaticism and division over beliefs if the greatest problem with religion, and that an anti-religion could become as harmful an ideology if repressing any religion were allowed. He would give refuge to people on any faith (although he might not personally like them), so long as they did not do evil against their fellow man in the name of their faith.


It does seem odd that the gods would all keep The One secret though. It is specifically pointed out that the creatures of Nyx were not told of the One or the other angels. It sounded like this was a sign of his fallen state, striking a distinction between Nyx and the worlds the angels made before the One took the power of Creation from them. I find it especially hard to believe that Sirona, Goddess of Wisdom, or Lugus, God of Truth, would willfully hide the truth from their most devout followers.
 
The real purpose of that pedia entry is to get across a feel for the motivation and character of Cassiel. Because of that I had to take certain liberties with what he was willing to discuss. Typically he would never talk about it. Maybe he was drunk. ;)

There are multiple reasons the gods dont talk about the one. It could be their own ego, it could be that they dont believe humanity will respect them if they knew, it could be that they believe it will hurt humanity to know (there is a real god, but he abandoned you). For the best gods, Sirona and such, the reason is that the One choose to seperate himself from creation. They see that as more than a physical seperation, and are unwilling to undo that by revealing him.
 
So, do all the angels know? Obviously the Original 21 know, but (as I stated in my last post) the newer versions of the History seem to say that all the other angels were created after The One departed (which was after the creation of Humanity). Are the gods only keeping knowledge from mortals, or from everyone?
 
So, do all the angels know? Obviously the Original 21 know, but (as I stated in my last post) the newer versions of the History seem to say that all the other angels were created after The One departed (which was after the creation of Humanity). Are the gods only keeping knowledge from mortals, or from everyone?

I never really thought about it. The players never heard about the One god except through a brief encounter with the luonnotar (they party wasnt sure what to make of them).

Its kinda hard when our knowledge differs from that of the characters. I considered not even revealing the info about the one and having the mythology be as thepeople of erebus understand it rather than the truth. But the true story answers a lot of the questions that i think are inherent in most mythologys (why are gods imperfect, why are people imperfect, why does evil exist, what is the link between man and the divine, why are we here).

Cassiel knows, so we can assume that the archangels know. The gods and the archangels were at the 7 pines when the compact was forged, and I would assume it was a major topic of discussion. Outside of that, I dont know if it would have been passed on to other true angels. I doubt it would have gone to many.

I always thought there was some secret about the One kept in the vault of Oghma, and that was what Mammon was going for when he attacked. But I never decided what it was.
 
So, it is confirmed that the Archangels were at the signing of the compact? Did they sign too? This could finally settle my question of whether Cernunnos is vulnerable to the Godslayer.


I was just thinking that it would be interesting if The One had never been revealed to the archangels (or anyone else) until the meeting at the twelve pines. Of course, there are still things that seem to imply that the creatures of all the worlds made before Nyx should have already had knowledge of the One.

I think it could answer at lot of questions if Agares had insisted that revealing The One to mortals (or maybe to anyone not present at the seven pines) would constitute a serious breach of the compact. If The One was more widely known before this, it would also require the Gods somehow obfuscate the truth.


This seems like it would really upset Cassiel, more so even than the powers that the gods were still allowed to wield. In my mind, this is the real reason he chose to fall. Before calling for the compact he merely wanted peace, but learning the truth moved him into outright dystheism. He could not bring himself to respect even Dagda anymore, and so chose to fall. However, he is still bound by the compact and thus unable to reveal the truth about the One to anyone, no mater how much he wants to do so. What he did say to that dead little girl came dangerously close to revealing The One (although he technically didn't), which I imagine might entitle Agares to slaughter all those who heard and maybe claim their souls as well.



I like to think that Sirona (and/or Lugus) added one last amendment to the Compact: if any mortals manage to discover the truth of the One on their own, without any divine guidance (except from The One), then no god may act to silence them. Furthermore, the gods could not allow their power to be channeled and used against them. (I realize though that this part doesn't fit with what we know about Arawn needed to withdraw from creation entirely to prevent mortals from channeling life and death, but perhaps this power, like the power to kill a god, is possible only when all the gods act together.) Agares agreed, thinking this could never happen and so the restriction was a moot point. This way, we can have Luonnatar that are truly immune to magic, not merely at the mercy of the gods to power is called against them. He has only recently come to regret this decision.


I still wonder how Nemed could tie into this. He obviously knew of The One, he is truly immortal and so must still be around, and he was not at the compact and thus not bound by it. I wonder though, if Nemed did found the Luonnatar, could that be considered divine intervention? Is he in hiding now for fear that proof of his involvement could mean the Luonnatar would be vulnerable to Agares' wrath? Did he find some way to escape to the true heaven? Is there still a way for direct communication with The One? Does only Oghma know?
 
Many good points. The only one I know for sure is that the archangels did not "sign" the compact (so Cernunnos/Cassiel/Hyborem/Basium didn't agree to it). In fact Cassiel and Basium abandoned the meeting before it was complete. Whether that makes them immune to its effects or if Cernunnos is immune to the godslayer or not is unknown.

We do know that the archangels are a lot more directly active on Erebus than the gods are, especially in being able to physically enter it. If this is allowed by the compact or if they are ignoring that aspect is also unknown. Many archangles seem to do it, of all alignments, and we dont have any indication of a punishment for their actions. But on the other side Sabathiel seems intent not to enter Erebus because "he is following the strictest possible interpetation of the compact". But we know Junil's angels can be a bit dogmatic.
 
Not only are those Archangles entering creation but some of the gods playthings (dragons) are also returning of their own free will... And I would assume that they would be bound by those same rules the Angles are. IE if they can enter with out breaking the compac so can the dragon re awaken to creation. The way it appears is that only the gods are bound and as such would be the only ones that can be killed by the sword. (not that a powerful warrior couldnt use the sword and kill angles and dragons by his own skilled hands)
 
I know this is thread necromancy, but I thought I would share a 'pedia entry that i just wrote for the Children of The One religion that I have added to my modmod. (I came across this thread first when I was looking for the original religion design thread in order to borrow Kael's description of the Cult of the Dragon, which I have reimplemented.)

Thus spoke the Martyr Mishahel to the high priest, as he stood bound with his fellow Luonnotar in the city plaza and waiting to face the fury of Junil’s justice:

”We are all Children of The One, men and so-called gods alike, whether you acknowledge it or not. The Angels that He created may have created this world in which we live, but that gives them no right to demand our worship. The least of us mere mortals are far closer to the majesty of The Twenty One than they could ever hope to be to the majesty of their maker. In ways we are greater than them. We have true free will, while they are slaves to their individual precepts. The Father would have lifted their burden, but they lusted after power and chose to remain in bondage to it. It was Agares who stole the Gems of Creation and made them portals to infinite planes of pure elements, and I curse his name for this even more than you. I however cannot do so without expressing even greater scorn for hypocrites like your Lord Junil, who condemn him for this act and wage wars against his followers in retribution while themselves never ceasing to abuse the power he granted them. The One commanded the so-called good gods to protect humanity and guide us to enlightenment, but they have abandoned this duty in order to fight each other and have reduced our race to mere pawns. The Father would never have approved of fighting evil with evil, which is all Junil does. The eldest angel ought to be a good example to us all, but he is only an example of unparalleled hypocrisy. How can you swear an oath to worship a god of oaths who broke his oath not to interfere is this world?

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of The One. Even Nemed, our forefather, who alone among the first angels was willing to give up power and accept the freedom that The One offers to us all, did so only after convincing all his brethren to defy a direct commandment from their Creator. They were to make nothing eternal, but the God of Life wished us to have eternal life here in Erebus. While the bodies of the sons and daughters of Anesidora decay and our souls pass from this plane to the Netherworld, we know no real rest due to our ancestor’s folly. Had they obeyed then our souls might be free to join The One in The True Heaven, not bound to the exceedingly poor imitation worlds that false gods have fashioned. Your gods are but petulant children. Though they had already existed for eons before the foundation of the world, they are less mature than most mortals. We have more to teach them than they have to teach us. Enslaved to their precepts, they do not know their own souls. While they claim to revere our progenitor, they have no compassion on the actual man and heap their praise instead upon he who took his brother’s office. I do not repent my blasphemy or ask your god for mercy. I have nothing to repent. It is your god who needs to ask for my forgiveness, and to reject his own precept as an act of contrition. Junil will find no mercy until he embraces anarchy—not the strife of the corrupt Cammulos but the fact that there is greater order to be found in the rejection of authority and the embrace of purely voluntary interaction. (I do not say that all authority is wrong, but he who thinks he is authority itself must reject the notion before it is possible to find the proper balance of precepts to allow the soul freedom.) If your god condemns us for speaking the truth, how much more will The God of All condemn him when comes the day of reckoning? Let that day come! Mankind is ready to throw off the abuse of our guardians. Man will soon come of age. No would-be god shall survive unless he learns to recognize us not as his toys, but his equals.”

With this the Prior had heard enough. The most serious blasphemy ever recorded demanded a most serious punishment. Mere hanging or decapitation would not suffice. These fools needed to be made a public example in the most dramatic way he knew: a pillar of fire called down from the heavens. He knew he could command this, as he had personally done so before in order to purge his land of the last vestiges of the Ashen Veil and was sure that Junil would consider these men even worse.

Junil hated what he heard from the Luonnotar, because he feared it might be true. How could any mortal know such things? The terms of The Compact strictly forbade any angel from sharing these secrets with the living. He had assumed this was fine, as his maker never actually told them to make His existence known. One worry filled his soul with terror: could The One have returned, and chosen to reveal himself only to mortals? That would surely mean that he was not as righteous as he liked to believe. Now that he thinks of it, was not Agares first great sin the creation of a world and people required to worship him and kept in ignorance of the truth. For the first time, Junil was forced to consider that he himself might not be good. This line of thought would have gone on, had he not recalled an obscure clause of The Compact that dictating the proper course of behavior when dealing with mortals who know and have faith in truth. By following the letter of this law, he could suppress his existential angst.

The people watched in awe as they saw the flames descending from the sky. The Prior was certain of his victory, while the Luonnotar calmly awaited their unjust fate. It did not happen as anyone expected. Flames descended and engulfed them, but not a hair on their head or a fiber of their clothing was harmed. The same could not be said of the chains binding them, or the flesh of their persecutors, both of which melted away. Half the city cried in anguish, until they were reduced to ash. The only survivors within over a mile of the plaza were the condemned and those who had hearkened to their words. These joined together and fled the city, but were pursued. They were assailed at every stop, always safe against the supernatural but not against the mundane weapons of mortals offended by their gospel. Their numbers swelled with new converts, but the casualty rate was high. At last they found sanctuary among the Grigori, whose leader Cassiel kept secret the pride he felt over a certain clause that he personally had convinced Dagda to include in The Compact. He was not allowed to confirm the veracity of their beliefs, and frankly he thought that they had one thing very wrong; he could not accept the idea that a being as perfect as the one would have any desire to be worshipped or have a religion form around him. Nevertheless, he welcomed them into his lands. They made their home in the one land were all religious persecution is illegal and blasphemy is considered a national pastime. They could not make many converts among a people so suspicious of the very concept of faith, but did gain a safe base of operations to support evangelists abroad.
 
Very interesting. I've always been fascinated by the Luonnotar. Will an updated version of your modmod be available soon?
 
Possibly.

I'm basing it on Tholal's More Naval AI this time, and might want to wait until he releases his next version in hope of certain upcoming improvements.


Right now I'm trying to figure out a couple issues with BUG.

Edit: I found what was causing the "UnitUtil failed to initialize error" (typos in default units for two unitclasses) and fix the problem. I still haven't figured out how to make BUG work work properly with its CvGameInterfaceFile.py like its makers recommend, but I don't think I actually need to do so.

I could get it ready to release a version know, but I'd like to wait at least until Tholal can give me an estimate of how long it will take him to release his next version. It has some very nice improvements planned, and I'd hate to release my mod without them if I'd only have to wait a day or two to include them.


By the way, did anyone recognize the name I gave that Luonnotar? It is the Hebrew name of one of the three boys in the biblical Book of Daniel that King Nebuchadnezzar threw into the fiery furnace for refusing to worship a false idol, but were unharmed by the flames because of their faith. Most people know them as Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, but those are the names that the Babylonians gave them in order to replace references to the God of Israel with names of the false gods of Babylon. Their Hebrew names were Hananiah, Mishahel, and Azariah. The meaning of the name Mishahel (it does not have the second h in most English transliterations but does in Latin, in order to make it clear that the Hebrew name has 3 syllables) is the question "Who is like God?" and implies that the false gods of either Babylon or Erebus cannot compare to The One True God. The story of the Luonnotar has always reminded me of this tale from Daniel, so I thought the name choice seemed quite appropriate.
 
I was under the impression that Os-Gabella had Nemed imprisoned in her dungeon, where she was studying him through torture in her endless quest to commit suicide. Has this changed, was always just some fan-fic thingy I read, or am I misremembering something?
 
Os-Gabella does indeed have Nemed prisoner and is experimenting on him to find ways to kill herself. That is in Os-Gabella's civilopedia entry. I did not say anything that conflicts with that.
 
You had said that "He might be among the Luonnatar even now", but I hadn't checked the dates on the posts, so I thought that this was some recent revelation instead of speculation from four years ago. Terribly sorry about that.
 
Top Bottom