Caveman 2 Cosmos (ideas/discussions thread)

[Taxman66]

I still think there is no need for a malus on the hunting promotions at all. Just maybe a limited malus on the hunter units themselves, and then only vs. real combat units and I'd prefer/suggest only when attacking.

 

[n47]

But perhaps hunters could be given a +50% vs Barbarians as a base to balance the normal Combatant penalties.

Pleas don't. This game is already easy enough.

 

[azcore]

At the game start there is stone thrower and brute available to build. It looks looks like stone thrower is better in every way. So, what is the point of having brute as option?

 

[Thunderbrd]

Pleas don't. This game is already easy enough.

Yeah, I'd favor not to unless it becomes somehow obvious we need to. I'd like to give Cannibalism some further utility to enable this sort of counterbalancing strength for hunters really.

At the game start there is stone thrower and brute available to build. It looks looks like stone thrower is better in every way. So, what is the point of having brute as option?

At the moment, not much for the brute, no. Further Combat Mod developments should make him more useful down the road. Yes, at the moment he's not worth much in comparison.

 

[azcore]

I used included 'world generator' mapscript with giant size map and it generated ONE horse and ONE cow resourse for whole map. Is that supposed to happen?

Which mapscript is good at generating resources?

 

[DRJ]

Ok, I am gonna post this here, in the discussion thread because I am not sure if it is a bug or something I don't fully understand.

Well, here it goes: it is the beginning of the game, a hunted clubman, with a reduced strength of 0,7/2 walks on a forested hill, providing 75% defense. An enemy stonethrower attacks him.

I figured out the chances of combat for my clubman woudl be around 1 if I move him there as I was surrounded by other nations stone throwers it was the best place to seek shelter at and a much needed win would upgrade me or give enough xp to autoheal a bit

I lost the fight. However, when watching the odds after the battle, I was surprised - my 0,7/2 clubman had a 1,08 strength after the addition of the 75%.
But the chances showed 71% for the strength 1 stonethrower to win???!

So now the question is why were the odds as they appeared ---
I know the stonethrower has a first strike chance but is it really worth like 25% in this case??
How does the 80% retreat factor play into this scenario??
Any other modificators I oversaw?


So at all who read this: never underestimate the stone throwers...



and when playing with start as minors don't let your starting clubman go take a chance at those pesky stoners...

 

[God-Emperor]

According to the log, the stone thrower was getting a 25% bonus or you were getting a 25% penalty (the "Combat: -25%" right above the "Plot Defense: +75"). You got 75% for the forested hill. Your 75% minus the 25% gives you a net bonus of 50%. Your strength was therefore about 0.7 multiplied by the total modifier of 1.5 (clearly the actual strength was slightly higher than 0.7 or it would have given you 1.05 instead of 1.08).

Your 1.08 vs. his 1.0 would seem to be slightly in your favor, except that your unit was already damaged so your enemy needed to win fewer rounds of combat to kill you than you needed to kill him, but the odds of your winning each round were only infinitesimally higher than his, 1.08/2.08 => 51.9% for you to win the first round (and he may or may not have gotten a first strike; it gets harder to guess after that as the new combat system adjusts things as you go instead of keeping the same odds and same damage inflicted on a hit as calculated at the start but since you were hit first your chances would have only gone downhill from there). You were very slightly stronger but could take a lot less damage. Therefore the odds of 71% for him to win.

 

[azcore]

On immortal start AI has 3 throwers, 2 gatherers and 2 wanderers. Where can I change one of wanderers to be clubman? Lines in handicap file are:

<iAIStartingUnitMultiplier>0</iAIStartingUnitMultiplier>
<iAIStartingDefenseUnits>3</iAIStartingDefenseUnits>
<iAIStartingWorkerUnits>2</iAIStartingWorkerUnits>
<iAIStartingExploreUnits>1</iAIStartingExploreUnits>

so I can't figure that out.

EDIT: found that I have to edit StartAsMinors.py for that as it adds clubman only if military units is less than 2.
Apparently AI does not get clubman on higher difficulty levels, only on lower ones, maybe it should be fixed?

 

[azcore]

Forestry promotion strikes me as very cheesy. How could units move twice fast in forest then they are doing it in the plains? I understand removing penalty for moving in the forest but that... Makes no sense at all.

And besides I always need to check if enemy units have such promos(that one and one for the hills), so they cannot take me unaware. That is very painful as promotion icons on the enemy mousehover is very small and indistinguishable while text does not say anything about these promos. What do you guys think?

 

[Koshling]

On immortal start AI has 3 throwers, 2 gatherers and 2 wanderers. Where can I change one of wanderers to be clubman? Lines in handicap file are:

<iAIStartingUnitMultiplier>0</iAIStartingUnitMultiplier>
<iAIStartingDefenseUnits>3</iAIStartingDefenseUnits>
<iAIStartingWorkerUnits>2</iAIStartingWorkerUnits>
<iAIStartingExploreUnits>1</iAIStartingExploreUnits>

so I can't figure that out.

EDIT: found that I have to edit StartAsMinors.py for that as it adds clubman only if military units is less than 2.
Apparently AI does not get clubman on higher difficulty levels, only on lower ones, maybe it should be fixed?

I agree. I'll remove the check in the Python later today.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Forestry promotion strikes me as very cheesy. How could units move twice fast in forest then they are doing it in the plains? I understand removing penalty for moving in the forest but that... Makes no sense at all.

And besides I always need to check if enemy units have such promos(that one and one for the hills), so they cannot take me unaware. That is very painful as promotion icons on the enemy mousehover is very small and indistinguishable while text does not say anything about these promos. What do you guys think?

Disagree. I believe we've enabled flat terrains to gain double move on the field fighter promo line as well so it should be more balanced. However, I think that line should be more easily accessed to make it more rationally comparable to the difficulty in achieving double move on hills and forests.

I do agree that what you're saying makes rational sense but where I disagree is in where it would change the game experience. There's a classic charm in it that honors the vanilla civ4 root.

 

[strategyonly]

Disagree. I believe we've enabled flat terrains to gain double move on the field fighter promo line as well so it should be more balanced. However, I think that line should be more easily accessed to make it more rationally comparable to the difficulty in achieving double move on hills and forests.

I do agree that what you're saying makes rational sense but where I disagree is in where it would change the game experience. There's a classic charm in it that honors the vanilla civ4 root.

Agreed, Vanilla Civ 4.

 

[n47]

@Thunderbrd, for me it actually breaks any sense of logic in the movement. Wouldn't be better to add a promotion, which for no mounted units would give an additional move and for forest and hill promotions give a bonus which reduce the movement cost?

There's a classic charm in it that honors the vanilla civ4 root.

Changes are also charming.

Or would it break AI?

 

[Maxima7]

So you keep saying. I am te only one that agrees with you. None of the other modders do.

It requires a new mission and outcome. Then it needs the hurry amount and cost modified and put in the action/outcome on each unit using the adapt tag. Otherwise it is the same as the butcher animal mission.



Then perhaps it should not.

Do they really? If they don't agree, what was the reasoning? The multi production makes much more sense than being gimped on how much production can be applied because only one building can be completed.

 

[Thunderbrd]

@Thunderbrd, for me it actually breaks any sense of logic in the movement. Wouldn't be better to add a promotion, which for no mounted units would give an additional move and for forest and hill promotions give a bonus which reduce the movement cost?


Changes are also charming.

Or would it break AI?

If we made a generic +1 movement come before them as a prereq that then demands forestry or guerilla 1 as another prereq, it would have much the same effect and would probably be more rational.

I'll consider this when reworking some of our promos and promotion lines.

 

[charlesb96]

I have found that forestry and hillman do not actually double movement in that terrain. If I give it to a 1 mp unit then it can move 2 if the first move is into that terrain. But if I give it to a 2mp or higher, all it does is cancel the terrain cost of moving. Meaning you can move 2 if the first or both are in that terrain, you will not get 4mp out of it.

Canines can see camo units, why not Felines?

 

[Thunderbrd]

I have found that forestry and hillman do not actually double movement in that terrain. If I give it to a 1 mp unit then it can move 2 if the first move is into that terrain. But if I give it to a 2mp or higher, all it does is cancel the terrain cost of moving. Meaning you can move 2 if the first or both are in that terrain, you will not get 4mp out of it.

Canines can see camo units, why not Felines?

1) That is correct. The promotion cuts the move cost on the tile in half, doesn't double the movement into it. Thus, it makes forested/hilled tiles cheaper to move through than even a flat plain, instead of making the unit move faster. This is why adding a movement first would be safe and effective to make things more rational.

2) Felines are themselves invisible. Canines are not. However, Canines can detect invisible while Felines cannot. Both will be very good at pursuit, but Canines will be better due to their tracking skills. Felines will have a tendency to bolt away when danger gets real for them while Canines generally fight to the death. There are differences and there should be, despite having a common base template.

 

[GiuseppeIII]

Just had a new idea. Not sure if there is Allready this unit in c2c but would it be possible to make a carrier or escorted line of units for land units. These units would be used to escort workers, settlers, or other peaceful units from one place to another. They could have minus city defense, and could only defend but have a lot of strength. If on the same plot as a non civilian unit they wouldn't function.

 

[Taxman66]

That might be better as a promotion instead of a new unit.

 

[gryznar]

Are you plannning to add some significant changes, which will largely imrove the game, rather than still pushing stuffs, which only clog RAM (buildings, technologies, units, civilizations and so on)? I have nothing against these things, but it gets slowly boring, because new versions don't bring anything meaningful. I'm thinking about implementing some major mods (eg Total War has many ingenious improvements). I hope, that my suggestions will be a turning point in your look at the C2C. Good work!