Caveman 2 Cosmos

[JosEPh_II]

I guess I managed to correct some confusing issues with buildings in last minute

So if I spot more errors in movies or help texts can I commit such fixes?

Your Culture adjustments for Later bldgs. (Post Industrial Era) are all probably good things. BUT....reductions to Culture giving Buildings from Preh thru Classical Eras was probably No So Good a thing to do. You again changed the base for which Early (and in fact all) Civics work from. Granted as stated the Eras past Industrial, those Culture giving Buildings' reductions were actually needed. Early game not so much.

 

[Toffer90]

Yeah, a 50% culture modifier from a prehistoric building that obsoletes within an era or two is a pretty weak building stat compared to a 10% culture boost from a late game building that doesn't obsolete.
50% of 10 is +5 while 5% of 1000 is +50.
The sweeping culture nerf raxo made recently annoyed me on this point, it flattens the mod just as much as it balanced it.
Some thought should go into different building groups when making such a sweeping change, they may need different nerf treatment.

My point is mostly that buildings that obsoletes early did not need to have their stat halved, while it was appropriate to halve the stat for most other buildings.

Setting the Building+Bonus culture modifier down to 1% in all cases is probably good, unless a buildings main stat is the culture boost from having that bonus available (may be 1 or 2 buildings in the game that is like that).

 

[raxo2222]

Your Culture adjustments for Later bldgs. (Post Industrial Era) are all probably good things. BUT....reductions to Culture giving Buildings from Preh thru Classical Eras was probably No So Good a thing to do. You again changed the base for which Early (and in fact all) Civics work from. Granted as stated the Eras past Industrial, those Culture giving Buildings' reductions were actually needed. Early game not so much.

Civics quickly get overpowered at certain stage of game when it comes to culture modifiers - you can see modifiers from various sources when hovering in city window.

There is short window in Ancient and at most medieval era, where total modifiers from civics are similar to total modifiers from buildings.
You can check that in city window.

 

[JosEPh_II]

Civics quickly get overpowered at certain stage of game when it comes to culture modifiers - you can see modifiers from various sources when hovering in city window.

There is short window in Ancient and at most medieval era, where total modifiers from civics are similar to total modifiers from buildings.
You can check that in city window.

Did you read Toffer's reply above yours? He states the obvious that you seem to over look or trivialize.

I'm trying to still get the Early Civics adjusted and working better together. I have not made it to mid civic or even late civic changes in most categories. But yet you have 3 times now changed the early game basis that All civic at game start thru Classical have to work from. Do you Not see how this constant change is wreaking Havoc on my balance efforts in this particular area of the Game play?

I have repeatedly said late game I have not touched. So any changes you make there are Not a factor for me to be concerned about Until I get there! So any changes you make in this area (pepper's modmod addition to the Mod) is irrelevant to my work.

If you constantly change the base values for the early game then Civic adjustments are being constantly out dated by those changes. So what is the Point of me even trying to balance the early civics??? Do you Understand??

 

[Thunderbrd]

@Thunderbrd ,

I have a question about you and alberts2 conversation about Property control units. The current Define setting is for 2 Property Control units. But...the question...Is this for every Property (Crime, Disease, Education)? Or does it mean 2 units for all 3 properties? Which could lead to 1 or 2 properties getting no help.

I'm hoping it's 2 for Each Property. Would raising it to 3 cause AI unit overload under current system if it is 2 for each?

Its for each. If we raise it that might be overkill since the pop growth control has been effective at reducing need a lot.

 

[raxo2222]

Did you read Toffer's reply above yours? He states the obvious that you seem to over look or trivialize.

I'm trying to still get the Early Civics adjusted and working better together. I have not made it to mid civic or even late civic changes in most categories. But yet you have 3 times now changed the early game basis that All civic at game start thru Classical have to work from. Do you Not see how this constant change is wreaking Havoc on my balance efforts in this particular area of the Game play?

I have repeatedly said late game I have not touched. So any changes you make there are Not a factor for me to be concerned about Until I get there!

If you constantly change the base values for the early game then Civic adjustments are being constantly out dated by those changes. So what is the Point of me even trying to balance the early civics??? Do you Understand??

I'm sorry but it has to be done.

@Dancing Hoskuld and @Thunderbrd it seems like subdued animals text help is total mess.

Spoiler :

It needs reformatting - it should state only uncommon features, and shouldn't be split in new lines.

I fixed all help TXT KEY errors in subdued animals though.

 

[mkr1977]

The diplomatic elections have not worked in years.

 

[raxo2222]

The diplomatic elections have not worked in years.

I think some of them may need minimum amount of players being active. Or somehow NPC split damaged them.

 

[JosEPh_II]

The diplomatic elections have not worked in years.

They should still work IF your Victory condition is only Diplomacy. But If you use Mastery or Domination or Conquest then they usually don't.

 

[raxo2222]

They should still work IF your Victory condition is only Diplomacy. But If you use Mastery or Domination or Conquest then they usually don't.

This sounds like bug somewhere.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I'm sorry but it has to be done

Really? By whose decision?

This will be the last I'll say about this. But you seem to have unlimited decision making approval.

In the course of my testing and playing I will change Culture levels on buildings were needed, same for Production, food and other areas like Property Control. Especially early game. Late game is a Non factor to me for sometime yet. So I have No objections to you hacking and slashing in that timeframe of the Game. In fact I encourage you to focus there.

 

[JosEPh_II]

This sounds like bug somewhere.

Old old bug if it actually is one. The decision making a long time ago on some of the Victory conditions, around the time when Mastery Victory was included, precipitated many of these type changes. Documentation was non existent back then for the most part.

 

[raxo2222]

Really? By whose decision?

This will be the last I'll say about this. But you seem to have unlimited decision making approval.

In the course of my testing and playing I will change Culture levels on buildings were needed, same for Production, food and other areas like Property Control. Especially early game. Late game is a Non factor to me for sometime yet. So I have No objections to you hacking and slashing in that timeframe of the Game. In fact I encourage you to focus there.

Thunderbrd approved slashing culture modifiers.

Buildings with culture modifiers tend to not obsolete for very long time.
Also if you looked at modifier sources in city you would see that culture usually had by far highest modifiers from buildings+resources.

Old old bug if it actually is one. The decision making a long time ago on some of the Victory conditions, around the time when Mastery Victory was included, precipitated many of these type changes. Documentation was non existent back then for the most part.

@Anq @alberts2 and @Thunderbrd can look what is going on here.

 

[Yudishtira]

In my save, AP was built, I don't think there was ever an election, the builder got - and kept - control of it, and several resolutions were voted on.
The Congress of Vienna was built, but it was never heard from again (no votes at all).
The UN was built, I am Sec Gen, elections and resolution votes appear to be as normal. The last few resolution votes have been reported as "Fails - 0 votes", even though I voted for them, but I've seen that before, and for now assume it is standard in the case of a veto.

I have Mastery Victory enabled. I probably left all the others ticked as well, if that matters.

 

[Thunderbrd]

This will be the last I'll say about this. But you seem to have unlimited decision making approval.

A problem was identified that there was far too much culture output later in the game. I knew this would lead to a quick and dirty slashing but at the moment I feel that's more warranted than waiting for an in-depth evaluation process that would be more appropriate in the end. There are some other things I expect to change at some point about what's possible to assign buildings where commerces and yields and such are concerned so I'm not TOO worried about perfecting details at the moment because the truly fine-toothed comb now may be a bit much.

That said, I also understand where you and Toffer are coming from on this and would just urge that these kinds of adjustments be charted and considered with some care when they are done. However, again, there will be a time in the future for that sort of evaluation. And in the meantime, where you find need to adjust certain details as you go with the projects you're working on, I'm more than happy to support you with that as well. Thus, I back you when you say:

In the course of my testing and playing I will change Culture levels on buildings were needed, same for Production, food and other areas like Property Control

If in the course of modding someone does something specific that is disagreed with, on specific buildings or at specific points, we should bring up those specifics wherever possible. Even if they are just an example of more.

@Anq @alberts2 and @Thunderbrd can look what is going on here.

I know there's been some issues with this but I'm not really sure how that whole system works - it's quite complicated - and it's one of those 'I didn't mess with it and I don't know how it SHOULD be' systems. I don't think the NPC split did much to it as something was off about it in a lot of cases before that. I suppose at some point it'll be something to make a project out of.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@Thunderbrd,
When was Culture removed from Monasteries and Temples for All Religions? I have done nothing with these....Yet.

Cathedrals have so many Hoops to jump thru that slashing their Culture by 80% was Overboard to say the least. But I only doubled the last change for most of them. So they are now ~ 30-35% of what they were Originally before the recent Slash and Burn.

A problem was identified that there was far too much culture output later in the game

These slash to the early game are in most cases Non factors to the Late game Culture Glut. The Late Game Culture Glut is/was a direct result of pepper2000 modmod inclusion. Exponentially adding Culture and other Modifiers %s just like Hydro used to do. And these Hydro and Mr Azure templates were probably pepper2000's models to work from. Looking at their structuring indicates this is so. So yes the Late game has/had problems with glut. It is inherent to the models used.

So all the regular buildings in the early game that were slashed have been upped a bit. Some (few) to previous levels but most to an intermediate level somewhere reasonable between original and slash values. Almost All these buildings Obsolete Before the Atomic Era.

 

[Thunderbrd]

When was Culture removed from Monasteries and Temples for All Religions? I have done nothing with these....Yet.

Cathedrals have so many Hoops to jump thru that slashing their Culture by 80% was Overboard to say the least. But I only doubled the last change for most of them. So they are now ~ 30-35% of what they were Originally before the recent Slash and Burn.

I didn't remove any from them. I think they should have some and I support your re-upping some of the culture on those.

These slash to the early game are in most cases Non factors to the Late game Culture Glut. The Late Game Culture Glut is/was a direct result of pepper2000 modmod inclusion. Exponentially adding Culture and other Modifiers %s just like Hydro used to do. And these Hydro and Mr Azure templates were probably pepper2000's models to work from. Looking at their structuring indicates this is so. So yes the Late game has/had problems with glut. It is inherent to the models used.

Agreed to a point. Particularly with % mods, the smaller the incremental increase due to tech improvements, the better, particularly the later the game gets. This is something I think we are all seeing emerge to be more true than ever with how extended our tech tree has become. The steps up in 'change' or flat +/- values, are good to continue a measured progression upwards through tech achievements and you've gotta have SOME increase in value for the% mods or they aren't an improvement over the previous versions BUT keeping those on a minimal increase path is a good option. That may allow the % mods to start a bit higher in the early game but get smaller gains than we've previously established through time. As a game theory, that should work.

 

[VCrakeV]

With all of this talk about the culture glut, is the gold glut going to be addressed? Gold seems to accrue way too much even earlier than culture. I'm in the early Renaissance era (Prince), and have nearly 100,000 gold, plus 5,000 per turn. I haven't been on the forum for a few weeks, and haven't updated since, so perhaps this has already been addressed. Anyway, the gold glut I have was too easy to get. Aside from a single jewelry store, I haven't built a building that provides gold at the expense of crime. These buildings offer a lot of gold, but they just never seem worth it because gold is already so plentiful. This is all without cutting research funds (I was at 100% for most of the game, eventually cut 5% for espionage because I'm naive). You get a swath of percent gold bonuses from various buildings, which vastly amplify the flat bonuses from guilds, and to a lesser extent most buildings.

 

[raxo2222]

10596
.....
Performance improvements wherever the BuildingInfo tags UnitClassProductionModifier, BuildingClassProductionModifier and GlobalBuildingClassProductionModifier are used.
......
Number 4 speeds up opening the Buildings pedia, here it's down to 17 seconds from 24.

Cool so PPIO pedia will be even faster - even now it responds instantly.

 

[JosEPh_II]

I'm in the early Renaissance era (Prince), and have nearly 100,000 gold, plus 5,000 per turn.

That is an example of how much Gold has already been reduced. It used to be Much Much more in previous versions. Many Players would have been in the Millions of Gold in treasury with 10s of thousands per turn at 100% research.

Gold reduction is an Ongoing process that will Not be complete until all parts and Projects are finally added to the Mod. Pepper2000's late game additions thru added Eras is still being processed, analyzed and an ongoing balancing act. And you have not even reached that part of the game yet.


Early Civics for early game I have been working on to reduce early game gold glut. But Gold Glut is different in the eye of each beholder/player. You see 100,000 treasury with 5000/turn in Ren as too much. Others do not. I see it as one modder (of many) working on balancing as evidence that it is coming down. Is it complete? Heck No! Will it get fixed I one fell swoop of the Modding axe? Again heck No!

And the Mid game is still to be addressed as well. But Thru Civics I can only get one stage of the game done at a time.

Also raxxo has recently (last couple of months) reduced All Gold % modifiers thru out the mod, just like his latest reduction to Culture. And this also dictates that all previous work on the early game has to be re-analyzed and the Early Civics reworked. Which in turn slows down the work on Mid game Civics. And Civic changes are but one of the points of reduction to Gold, Culture, Production, and Research in the Mod

This Mod is still an ever changing process and will Not be finished anytime soon.