Caveman 2 Cosmos

[Mas2135]

Go ... I have used many mods in English always, but most of the game appeared in Spanish. I speak English but not much! haha

I'll have to check ALL the XML to find the error .. Where to start?

-------------------------SPANISH

mods en ingles siempre, pero la mayor parte del juego aparecia en español. Hablo Ingles pero no tanto! jaja

Tendre que revisar TODOS los XML en busca del error.. Por donde comenzar?

 

[WimpyTheWarrior]

Neighbouring Civs are too vulnerable at start

I partially agree with this statement. For me the settings are:

Version - 21, plus SVN build 1986
Map - Gigantic C2C_Terra
Pericles, I do so love Pericles
Difficulty - Emperor
Speed - Snail
Ruthless AI

I think some of my settings may cause the AI problems:
* Stacking Limits: I start at 6 and +1 when certain military Techs are discovered. I'm always the first in the Tech tree, usually by 3,000 BC.
* Surround and Destroy
* Start as Minor Civs

I'll share some hypothesis on how the AI might be struggling. I do have save games from every 1,000 years if anyone is interested in tracking AI behaviour.

SURROUND AND DESTROY IS LACKING
I don't think the AI understands the benefits of Surround and Destroy. They have enough units, but rarely surround my units before attacking. The AI demonstrates SOD behaviour despite the stacking limits. I am able to consistly out-maneuver the AI and get better odds attacks than the AI. I win more battles and the AI army just wears down.

LOW ODD ATTACKS
There is a military concept "Force in being", where the presence of your army gives you power. I see the AI wear down it's army with low odd attacks against low-risk targets that I dangle in front of it. A favorite tactic of mine is to place 3 or 4 Scout/Explorer unarmed units on a wooded hill near an AI city. The AI will go crazy attacking these units. Even when I nerf the Scout line (previous post) the AI is still drawn to it. A better tactic would be to ooze around my units before attacking, and ignore the Scout line if there are combat units in the vicinity.

BUILDS CAVE DWELLING TOO SOON
Another poor choice the AI makes is rushing the initial GA from the Cave Dwelling. If you hold off on this GA until your city is POP 4 or 5 that is just more tiles getting the GA bonus. The AI usually rushes the GA with as few as POP 1. My favorite tech strategy since v19 is to build the Cave Dwelling 1 turn before Ritualism, and have all my pre-reqs to get past Tribalism. I want to switch Civics to Tribalism during the GA to avoid the anarchy.

TOO MUCH ARMY TOO SOON
I don't think any other Civ is a threat until Tracking is discovered. Before Tracking your army will get eaten alive (literally!) in the wild trying to reach another Civ. So I run a very light army in the early turns, favoring food, science, and income in my techs and builds. It is common for an AI to be 2x or 2.5x stronger than me before Tracking. I can see off early raiding units using Surround and Destroy, and get Slingers shortly after Tracking. But using WB and my archived saves I see the AI will have stacks of stone throwers by 10,000bc. This is poor choice for the threats possible at that time. I think the AI would improve with more emphasis on infrastructure until say 7,000bc?

POOR RESULTS FROM RE-ROLLS
Being 100% honest, the AI seems to really struggle when re-rolls are invoked, and often pulls defeat from the jaws of victory.

Having said all of that, I simply love this mod. I play as much for the narrative as the challenge, and the narrative to me is more interesting when I'm the Civ doing cool things like religions and Wonders and exploring the world. I view the AI as the Washington Generals to my Harlem Globetrotters. It's entertaining!

 

[Koshling]

I partially agree with this statement. For me the settings are:

Version - 21, plus SVN build 1986
Map - Gigantic C2C_Terra
Pericles, I do so love Pericles
Difficulty - Emperor
Speed - Snail
Ruthless AI

I think some of my settings may cause the AI problems:
* Stacking Limits: I start at 6 and +1 when certain military Techs are discovered. I'm always the first in the Tech tree, usually by 3,000 BC.
* Surround and Destroy
* Start as Minor Civs

I'll share some hypothesis on how the AI might be struggling. I do have save games from every 1,000 years if anyone is interested in tracking AI behaviour.

It takes about 30-60 minutes to work through a turn when in analysis mode trying to figure out AI motivations and so on, so it's not something I'll undertake without a save game that displays an immediate that-turn problem, so I'm afraid I need very specific focussed save game (like for example a specific turn where a bad attack is made, where a chance to take a dominant terrain position is ignored, etc.)

SURROUND AND DESTROY IS LACKING
I don't think the AI understands the benefits of Surround and Destroy. They have enough units, but rarely surround my units before attacking. The AI demonstrates SOD behaviour despite the stacking limits. I am able to consistly out-maneuver the AI and get better odds attacks than the AI. I win more battles and the AI army just wears down.

Correct. There is no AI code at all for surround and destroy. It's on the list of things to do.

LOW ODD ATTACKS
There is a military concept "Force in being", where the presence of your army gives you power. I see the AI wear down it's army with low odd attacks against low-risk targets that I dangle in front of it. A favorite tactic of mine is to place 3 or 4 Scout/Explorer unarmed units on a wooded hill near an AI city. The AI will go crazy attacking these units. Even when I nerf the Scout line (previous post) the AI is still drawn to it. A better tactic would be to ooze around my units before attacking, and ignore the Scout line if there are combat units in the vicinity.

I have noticed this too, and I definately plan to address it. One thing it doesn't evaluate (and doing so would improve this a lot I think) is the safety (or otherwise) of its unit after it WINs the immediately presented combat. If I fix that it should only then pick units off if by doing so it doesn't leave its attacking unit obviously exposed to counter-attack.

BUILDS CAVE DWELLING TOO SOON
Another poor choice the AI makes is rushing the initial GA from the Cave Dwelling. If you hold off on this GA until your city is POP 4 or 5 that is just more tiles getting the GA bonus. The AI usually rushes the GA with as few as POP 1. My favorite tech strategy since v19 is to build the Cave Dwelling 1 turn before Ritualism, and have all my pre-reqs to get past Tribalism. I want to switch Civics to Tribalism during the GA to avoid the anarchy.

This seems somewhere between marginal and debatable to me. Personally I use my cave dwelling GA at the point I have about 3-4 early civic switches I want to make. This is well before the point you are sugesting, but still somewhat after the AI typically does it. Basically the AI has logic to react to being IN a GA, but no logic to try to time when to START GAs (it just goes for them when it can). Clearly this can be tweaked, but setting the right criteria will be highly non-trivial I suspect (probably need some sort of points system, and obviously the threshold required will be very greatly effected by whether its a guaranteed GA or a competative one (from a Great Wonder for example)

TOO MUCH ARMY TOO SOON
I don't think any other Civ is a threat until Tracking is discovered. Before Tracking your army will get eaten alive (literally!) in the wild trying to reach another Civ. So I run a very light army in the early turns, favoring food, science, and income in my techs and builds. It is common for an AI to be 2x or 2.5x stronger than me before Tracking. I can see off early raiding units using Surround and Destroy, and get Slingers shortly after Tracking. But using WB and my archived saves I see the AI will have stacks of stone throwers by 10,000bc. This is poor choice for the threats possible at that time. I think the AI would improve with more emphasis on infrastructure until say 7,000bc?

This is a pretty fine line. I agree with you, but getting the balance right is likely to be tricky and I doubt an absolute date is the way to go. IMO it needs to pay more attention to the (unit-based only) strength of its near neighbours in making these decisions.

POOR RESULTS FROM RE-ROLLS
Being 100% honest, the AI seems to really struggle when re-rolls are invoked, and often pulls defeat from the jaws of victory.

I don't understand what you mean here. Re-rolls?

Having said all of that, I simply love this mod. I play as much for the narrative as the challenge, and the narrative to me is more interesting when I'm the Civ doing cool things like religions and Wonders and exploring the world. I view the AI as the Washington Generals to my Harlem Globetrotters. It's entertaining!

Constructive and specific feedback liek this is great. It is what allows us to continually make the mod better. Keep it coming.

 

[Madskillz99]

Trying to delete this. Sorry.

 

[Madskillz99]

That's what higher difficulties are for. Try playing immortal or deity, the AI will spam you nearly to death... and have additional units from turn 1!

Sry, I don't want to sound like a bully to you but what is it with players (you're not the only one) complaining about not enough difficulty when not playing on a very difficult level????

Re: Difficulty

Well yeah, but I dont want to play through the rest of the scenario under various other conditions which dont add any more intelligence to the AI, just huge percentile bonuses to all their stuff. It drives me nuts - not coz its too hard for me*, but coz its kinda.... lame. Prince already gives the AI as much bonus as I can stomach. I enjoy flogging AI's for what they are, or getting owned by them and swearing merciless vengence on their souless existence (it doesnt need a soul to be afraid...)

Cranking up Civ difficulty is like playing computer chess against an AI who gets an extra row of pieces.


*Its too hard for me.

 

[Zephyr Arsland]

Greetings,

I've been playing C2C since Ver16 or 17 (can't remember which one) and lurking around here, but finally got up to register to the forums to tell the team what a wonderful job you're all doing. C2C is, hands down, the best mod I've ever played for any CIV game (I've been playing since CivNet... quite a while ago). So deep, so full of options, so enthrilling... so representative of the struggle of mankind! Never before have I been afflicted harder by the "one more turn" malady as I am now.

I know it's an ongoing project and I have the highest hopes for it. It's looking terrific. Keep up the good work!

Apart from all that deserved praise, I just wanted to ask a little question: I'm playing an Eternity game in vanilla v21, and am about to reach the Medieval Age (further game details and/or savegame file will be procured if needed, I don't have them on hand right now), and have noticed two things: Building a Courthouse in some cities incurs in an INCREASE in gold expenses, rather than a REDUCTION: and building High Walls in my capital city (which has a slew of Wonders, a Watch Tower and plain Walls, apart from some slums) states: "+xx% defense; Actual: -10% defense".

I apologize in advance if the answers are so simple as to qualify me as a "noob", but for the life of me I couldn't find an explanation for that behaviour.

Thanks!

 

[Koshling]

Greetings,

I've been playing C2C since Ver16 or 17 (can't remember which one) and lurking around here, but finally got up to register to the forums to tell the team what a wonderful job you're all doing. C2C is, hands down, the best mod I've ever played for any CIV game (I've been playing since CivNet... quite a while ago). So deep, so full of options, so enthrilling... so representative of the struggle of mankind! Never before have I been afflicted harder by the "one more turn" malady as I am now.

I know it's an ongoing project and I have the highest hopes for it. It's looking terrific. Keep up the good work!

Apart from all that deserved praise, I just wanted to ask a little question: I'm playing an Eternity game in vanilla v21, and am about to reach the Medieval Age (further game details and/or savegame file will be procured if needed, I don't have them on hand right now), and have noticed two things: Building a Courthouse in some cities incurs in an INCREASE in gold expenses, rather than a REDUCTION: and building High Walls in my capital city (which has a slew of Wonders, a Watch Tower and plain Walls, apart from some slums) states: "+xx% defense; Actual: -10% defense".

I apologize in advance if the answers are so simple as to qualify me as a "noob", but for the life of me I couldn't find an explanation for that behaviour.

Thanks!

Post a save game please with precise descriptions of which cities to look at for each issue and I'll try to diagnose.

 

[Hale_9204]

for the courthouse i can answer you: every courthouse costs 2 for balance; then you have the 25% reduction on the maintenance cost
example in a city with a maintenance of 4 , the courthouse costs 1 ; in a city with a maintenace of 20 , the courthouse gives you 3 gold (+5-2)

hope it'sclear

 

[Zephyr Arsland]

Thank you both for the prompt reply; exactly as Hale_9204 said, I discovered that bit on my own. So there's no trouble there; I just forgot to notice the cost of the Courthouse itself. Sorry to bother you.

As for the High Walls, it seems to be a problem with the "actual: -xx% defense" bit, the walls themselves provide the defense bonus as expected when built.

Here's the savegame for vanilla v21. I'm playing as China (Kangxi). In Beijing, the capital, you can see the High Walls promise an "actual:-10% defense"; when built, they provide +20% defense over the standard walls.

Thanks in advance.

EDIT: I've just noticed that it happens with the "Guard Tower" building too, in the same city.

 

[Terradive]

I've played C2C and enjoyed it, but it kind of has too much going on. I was looking at AND and was hoping to get some help with the following topic. What files need to be updated, and if I was a really good guy, what lines denote the code changes?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=454641

Much thanks in advance!

 

[God-Emperor]

I've played C2C and enjoyed it, but it kind of has too much going on. I was looking at AND and was hoping to get some help with the following topic. What files need to be updated, and if I was a really good guy, what lines denote the code changes?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=454641

Much thanks in advance!

C2C added a new value for this to A_New_Dawn_GlobalDefines.xml. It is the last one in the file (as of v21): SHOW_BUILDINGS_LEVEL.

It includes an explanation of what the possible values are and what they do:

	<Define>
		<!-- Use the following to determine what building art
			is displayed on cities:
			0 = none
			1 = Wonders only
			2 = Wonders and city defences only
			3 = all -->
		<DefineName>SHOW_BUILDINGS_LEVEL</DefineName>
		<iDefineIntVal>2</iDefineIntVal>
	</Define>

The code in the DLL would all be associated with that definition.

 

[Terradive]

C2C added a new value for this to A_New_Dawn_GlobalDefines.xml. It is the last one in the file (as of v21): SHOW_BUILDINGS_LEVEL.

It includes an explanation of what the possible values are and what they do:

	<Define>
		<!-- Use the following to determine what building art
			is displayed on cities:
			0 = none
			1 = Wonders only
			2 = Wonders and city defences only
			3 = all -->
		<DefineName>SHOW_BUILDINGS_LEVEL</DefineName>
		<iDefineIntVal>2</iDefineIntVal>
	</Define>

The code in the DLL would all be associated with that definition.

So it's only display the wonders and defences? Neat idea.

 

[Koshling]

Thank you both for the prompt reply; exactly as Hale_9204 said, I discovered that bit on my own. So there's no trouble there; I just forgot to notice the cost of the Courthouse itself. Sorry to bother you.

As for the High Walls, it seems to be a problem with the "actual: -xx% defense" bit, the walls themselves provide the defense bonus as expected when built.

Here's the savegame for vanilla v21. I'm playing as China (Kangxi). In Beijing, the capital, you can see the High Walls promise an "actual:-10% defense"; when built, they provide +20% defense over the standard walls.

Thanks in advance.

EDIT: I've just noticed that it happens with the "Guard Tower" building too, in the same city.

Thanks for the observation and save game.

I have just pushed a fix for the incorrect display of 'actual' building defense values to the SVN. If you get the latest SVN version it should be working correctly there now. I'll probably make a patch update sometime later this week also which will include this fix along with some others for those not using the SVN.

 

[playaveli]

Is this game stable for multiplayer? Or does it go out of sync often?

 

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Is this game stable for multiplayer? Or does it go out of sync often?

A lot of work has gone into fixing multiplayer. I am not sure what the frequency of OOS are though.

 

[BlueTemplar]

POOR RESULTS FROM RE-ROLLS
Being 100% honest, the AI seems to really struggle when re-rolls are invoked, and often pulls defeat from the jaws of victory.

What do you mean by re-rolls?

C2C is, hands down, the best mod I've ever played for any CIV game (I've been playing since CivNet... quite a while ago). So deep, so full of options, so enthrilling... so representative of the struggle of mankind!

... so bugged and unbalanced...

 

[DRJ]

A lot of work has gone into fixing multiplayer. I am not sure what the frequency of OOS are though.

Last thing I read was that now the first OOS comes at turn 1000 so it's... a thousand times more stable now than the last time I tried

I want a C2C eternity speed multiplayer league^^

---> btw can the multiplayer internet lobby be remodded for C2Cs purposes? I know that people are advised to play over direct IP but I think an ingame multiplayer meeting point with chat might be a good idea... what you guys think?

 

[strategyonly]

... so bugged and unbalanced...

HEY But thats why you play it all the time

 

[BlueTemplar]

Well, it's a pretty good mod, and I haven't played many other mods (besides RoM and AND) so I can't really compare. Also it's true there aren't any really game-breaking bugs right now, though not being able to build some religious wonders is annoying...
With so much extra content it's no wonder the game balance has been broken... (but at least it doesn't have the -100% maintenance like AND)

I want a C2C eternity speed multiplayer league^^

Wow, I can already see a possible forum topic here : 50 years after the start of the game, a C2C player dies from old age, replacement required.

 

[Koshling]

Treadmill crane requires a carpenter's workshop to be able to build it. Carpenter's workshop goes obsolete well before tradmill crane does, so there is a lengthy period where you cannot build treadmill cranes (but they are not obsolete) in new cities.

Perhaps the requirement should be carpenter's workshop OR <whatever replaces carpenter's workshop>