D'Artagnan59
The Gascon
Monarchy Sling Now!
CBob01 AWM Training Day Game
- Thread starter CommandoBob
- Start date
CommandoBob
AbstractArt
I admit I don't have all the facts on WW in an AW game. I also tend to get to Republic and stay in it. But then I am not warring all the time.
Here is what I learned the hard way in SGOTM10. In addition to being at war, WW is calculated by how many friendly troops are in enemy territory in the IBT. If it is only a handful, the affects are not too bad. But 40 or more units in enemy territory over several IBTs just shoots WW through the roof. Which is what I did.
I am not afraid to be in Monarchy; it is just not a government I play. And I have read that warring is possible and sustainable in Republic, but those comments were general, not talking about an AW game.
EDIT:
Question: since we have to do our own reseach, which government would let us keep up in the tech race best (of all government, not just Monarchy and Republic) ?
Here is what I learned the hard way in SGOTM10. In addition to being at war, WW is calculated by how many friendly troops are in enemy territory in the IBT. If it is only a handful, the affects are not too bad. But 40 or more units in enemy territory over several IBTs just shoots WW through the roof. Which is what I did.
I am not afraid to be in Monarchy; it is just not a government I play. And I have read that warring is possible and sustainable in Republic, but those comments were general, not talking about an AW game.
EDIT:
Question: since we have to do our own reseach, which government would let us keep up in the tech race best (of all government, not just Monarchy and Republic) ?
gmaharriet
Ancient Crone
lurker's comment: I'd say that (in theory anyway) if you could meet just one civ at a time, declare and destroy them quickly, then meet another civ...rinse and repeat...it might work. The WW count starts all over again with each civ. But what are the odds you could kill off each civ before meeting another???Aabraxan said:
CommandoBob
AbstractArt
Once we decide on our tech strategy we need to consider at what rate we want to learn those techs; min science, max science, zero sum economy or something else.
And then we need to discuss (in no real order) :
I think we need to research Iron Working because a) we need better weapons than our neighbors
and b) we might be able to trade it for other techs when we first meet our neighbors. I only think that we will meet three, maybe four neighbors anytime soon, so we need to learn fast.
And then we need to discuss (in no real order) :
- Initial city placement
- Initial scout/worker moves
- Initial city builds
I think we need to research Iron Working because a) we need better weapons than our neighbors
and b) we might be able to trade it for other techs when we first meet our neighbors. I only think that we will meet three, maybe four neighbors anytime soon, so we need to learn fast.
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
CommandoBob said:I think we need to research Iron Working because a) we need better weapons than our neighbors
lurker's comment: Is it a good idea to trade a 'military' tech with someone you are about to fight to the death?
Phaedo
Emperor
Hmm...
I like D'art's suggestion of a Monarchy slingshot but is it doable when we will be be needing so much military and without Alph at the start? I'm thinking no but we are playing at monarchy so it could be a real possibility I just don't know.
Why not go straight for monarchy? We are an Expansionist civ so the chances of getting WC for free is quite high. Horses and archers are an effective early army and we already have spears for defense. Why do we need IW right away? Wouldn't a faster government change do us more good?
I think an all out tech push at the beginning is the way to go. Once we have our government we could always change our research if we like.
Scout goes on the mount to the west, build where we are and mine the BG next to the river?
I'm not sure if our first build should be a warrior or a scout. There isn't really a lot of value of meeting civs earlier than we are ready to attack them is there? We want that scout to be searching around for our next city locations and popping huts. As we won't really be able to rely too much on trade for techs, those huts could be very valuable. The more I think about it, the more I think a scout should be our first build. We can always change it to a warrior if there are frisky barbs or enemies about.
A quick question. If we see a unit from another civ, do we have to talk with it immediately? Or can we wait? I understand our constraints once we are in the dialogue screen but do we have to contact new civs at the first possibility or just before the end of the turn? Can we wait for them to contact us? Just looking for a little clarification
I like D'art's suggestion of a Monarchy slingshot but is it doable when we will be be needing so much military and without Alph at the start? I'm thinking no but we are playing at monarchy so it could be a real possibility I just don't know.
Why not go straight for monarchy? We are an Expansionist civ so the chances of getting WC for free is quite high. Horses and archers are an effective early army and we already have spears for defense. Why do we need IW right away? Wouldn't a faster government change do us more good?
I think an all out tech push at the beginning is the way to go. Once we have our government we could always change our research if we like.
Scout goes on the mount to the west, build where we are and mine the BG next to the river?
I'm not sure if our first build should be a warrior or a scout. There isn't really a lot of value of meeting civs earlier than we are ready to attack them is there? We want that scout to be searching around for our next city locations and popping huts. As we won't really be able to rely too much on trade for techs, those huts could be very valuable. The more I think about it, the more I think a scout should be our first build. We can always change it to a warrior if there are frisky barbs or enemies about.
A quick question. If we see a unit from another civ, do we have to talk with it immediately? Or can we wait? I understand our constraints once we are in the dialogue screen but do we have to contact new civs at the first possibility or just before the end of the turn? Can we wait for them to contact us? Just looking for a little clarification
CommandoBob
AbstractArt
Touche! I overlooked that point.Bucephalus said:
It might be OK if we had a strong military that was already upgraded to that tech AND if we were able to strike at the other civ rather quickly (2 to 3 turns).
But other than that situation, it is probably not the wisest course of action.
CivActuary
Warlord
Government - As others have said, with AW, Republic has too much WW, so it's Monarchy for me. I don't know anything about Feudalism though, I've never used it. My preference would be to get Monarchy and stay there until maybe going to communism.
Initial city placement - I agree with Phaedo, settle in place. Of course we will need to see what the terrain looks like, but since this is AW, we should shoot for CxxC placement after, correct?
Initial scout/worker moves - Again, agree with Phaedo - Scout 2W to the mountain, worker W to the BG. After the first turn, I'd probably be in favor of sending the scout N. Reason - it looks like we are toward the upper part of a continent, there is a chance only 1 or no other civs are N of us.
Initial city builds - I think Warrior. Reason - We are on a continent and will be declaing war on anyone we meet, I think 1 scout might be enough. And we will need the warrior soon enough.
Techs - I think we should go for IW first, max research if possible. It would be good to have iron and swords first. Bucephalus has a good point about trading it away though, we may want to consider that. I think we can probably also get the other 1st tier techs through our initial trades or goody huts, which is what makes me lean towards a 2nd tier tech. I don't think we'd be able to get the Monarchy sling without Alph, either.
Contacting civs - Phaedo, my impression of the AW variant is that as soon as we are able to talk to them we have to declare by the end of the turn we meet them.
2 questions -
What is the rule on finding out who our opponents are? Are we allowed to check?
Are we each going to play the first 20 turns?
Initial city placement - I agree with Phaedo, settle in place. Of course we will need to see what the terrain looks like, but since this is AW, we should shoot for CxxC placement after, correct?
Initial scout/worker moves - Again, agree with Phaedo - Scout 2W to the mountain, worker W to the BG. After the first turn, I'd probably be in favor of sending the scout N. Reason - it looks like we are toward the upper part of a continent, there is a chance only 1 or no other civs are N of us.
Initial city builds - I think Warrior. Reason - We are on a continent and will be declaing war on anyone we meet, I think 1 scout might be enough. And we will need the warrior soon enough.
Techs - I think we should go for IW first, max research if possible. It would be good to have iron and swords first. Bucephalus has a good point about trading it away though, we may want to consider that. I think we can probably also get the other 1st tier techs through our initial trades or goody huts, which is what makes me lean towards a 2nd tier tech. I don't think we'd be able to get the Monarchy sling without Alph, either.
Contacting civs - Phaedo, my impression of the AW variant is that as soon as we are able to talk to them we have to declare by the end of the turn we meet them.
2 questions -
What is the rule on finding out who our opponents are? Are we allowed to check?
Are we each going to play the first 20 turns?
There's obviously a lot to think about before we conquer the world. Here's my 2¢ on these points:
Researching Tech: I'm for Iron Working first, and at max research at that. We need swords and I don't think we can get into Monarchy before we'll need them. I also think IW is important because it puts iron on the map. I don't think there's any doubt about whether or not we'll eventually need iron, and it would be a tremendous help to know where it is, so that we can place our cities properly.
Horses and archers do make a viable early military, but I think we can get a scout or two out and hope for Warrior Code for the archers, and we need two techs for horsemen (The Wheel and Horseback Riding). We could (I think) build a bunch of chariots ready for upgrade, but we won't have that much gold available when that time comes, I don't think.
I keep seeing reference to a "Monarchy Slingshot." Can we actually slingshot Monarchy? Now maybe there's something I'm missing here, but I thought the "Republic Slingshot" is so named because you take Republc as your free tech after Philosophy. I don't think we will be able to do that with Monarchy. Why? Because the path to Philosophy won't give us the prerequisite techs for Monarchy. IIUC, we'd have to have all the prerequisites for Monarchy before we could take it as a free tech. IOW, the only way that we would be able to "slingshot" Monarchy would be to get all of the prerequisites to Monarchy, then get to Philosophy before anyone else. Am I missing something?
Trading Tech: Bucephalus has a good point on trading military techs. I overlooked this when I mentioned that IW could be an easy monopoly. On the other hand, remember that we'll basically get one shot per AI civ to trade. Maybe it's a mistake to trade a military tech like IW, but I think it will depend on what they've got and what they've got to offer. I also think that the real danger is not that first trade -- it's the fact that once we let go of a monopoly trade, the AIs can then trade it around and everyone will have it.
Government: I'm kind of like CommandoBob in this: I'm not afraid of Monarchy; I just haven't played it. My solo games have not been AW, but they have been pretty war-heavy. I stick to Republic and I haven't had any war weariness problems. I think Monarchy will slow us down in research, but we've got to weigh that against the advantage in having no WW. In the final analysis, I think we need Monarchy. If I'm correct about the slingshot, I also think that this is a decision that we need to make before that scout moves his big toe for the first time.
War Weariness:I think this is the part that tripped me up on WW:
I just figured that if we kept taking cities, our borders would keep moving and we wouldn't have units in enemy territory for very long. At any rate, Monarchy makes this a non-issue.
This is my read of the current "votes" on these issues. If I've missed anyone or read anyone's post incorrectly, just let me know and I'll edit this post.
The current standings:
Government:
Aabraxan: Monarchy
Phaedo: Monarchy
CommandoBob: ???
CivActuary: Monarchy
D'Artagnan: Monarchy
Tech Path:
Aabraxan: Iron Working, Max
Phaedo: Iron Working
CommandoBob: Iron Working (?)
CivActuary: Iron Working
D'Artagnan: Monarchy sling
Miscellaneous questions:
I have the same question as Phaedo. CivActuary provided an answer, but didn't sound too sure of it. If we see a unit from another civ, are we required to talk to them on that turn? Or can we let them go without ever talking to them and without ever declaring war?
Also, what about embassies? I say establish them if you can (& if we're allowed), for the purpose of stealing tech!
I've been long-winded enough for now. I'll come back with comments on first builds and moves later.
Edit #1: Phaedo's tech vote changed.
Researching Tech: I'm for Iron Working first, and at max research at that. We need swords and I don't think we can get into Monarchy before we'll need them. I also think IW is important because it puts iron on the map. I don't think there's any doubt about whether or not we'll eventually need iron, and it would be a tremendous help to know where it is, so that we can place our cities properly.
Horses and archers do make a viable early military, but I think we can get a scout or two out and hope for Warrior Code for the archers, and we need two techs for horsemen (The Wheel and Horseback Riding). We could (I think) build a bunch of chariots ready for upgrade, but we won't have that much gold available when that time comes, I don't think.
I keep seeing reference to a "Monarchy Slingshot." Can we actually slingshot Monarchy? Now maybe there's something I'm missing here, but I thought the "Republic Slingshot" is so named because you take Republc as your free tech after Philosophy. I don't think we will be able to do that with Monarchy. Why? Because the path to Philosophy won't give us the prerequisite techs for Monarchy. IIUC, we'd have to have all the prerequisites for Monarchy before we could take it as a free tech. IOW, the only way that we would be able to "slingshot" Monarchy would be to get all of the prerequisites to Monarchy, then get to Philosophy before anyone else. Am I missing something?
Trading Tech: Bucephalus has a good point on trading military techs. I overlooked this when I mentioned that IW could be an easy monopoly. On the other hand, remember that we'll basically get one shot per AI civ to trade. Maybe it's a mistake to trade a military tech like IW, but I think it will depend on what they've got and what they've got to offer. I also think that the real danger is not that first trade -- it's the fact that once we let go of a monopoly trade, the AIs can then trade it around and everyone will have it.
Government: I'm kind of like CommandoBob in this: I'm not afraid of Monarchy; I just haven't played it. My solo games have not been AW, but they have been pretty war-heavy. I stick to Republic and I haven't had any war weariness problems. I think Monarchy will slow us down in research, but we've got to weigh that against the advantage in having no WW. In the final analysis, I think we need Monarchy. If I'm correct about the slingshot, I also think that this is a decision that we need to make before that scout moves his big toe for the first time.
War Weariness:I think this is the part that tripped me up on WW:
I just figured that if we kept taking cities, our borders would keep moving and we wouldn't have units in enemy territory for very long. At any rate, Monarchy makes this a non-issue.
This is my read of the current "votes" on these issues. If I've missed anyone or read anyone's post incorrectly, just let me know and I'll edit this post.
The current standings:
Government:
Aabraxan: Monarchy
Phaedo: Monarchy
CommandoBob: ???
CivActuary: Monarchy
D'Artagnan: Monarchy
Tech Path:
Aabraxan: Iron Working, Max
Phaedo: Iron Working
CommandoBob: Iron Working (?)
CivActuary: Iron Working
D'Artagnan: Monarchy sling
Miscellaneous questions:
I have the same question as Phaedo. CivActuary provided an answer, but didn't sound too sure of it. If we see a unit from another civ, are we required to talk to them on that turn? Or can we let them go without ever talking to them and without ever declaring war?
Also, what about embassies? I say establish them if you can (& if we're allowed), for the purpose of stealing tech!
I've been long-winded enough for now. I'll come back with comments on first builds and moves later.
Edit #1: Phaedo's tech vote changed.
TimBentley
Deity
lurker's comment: You're not missing anything. The way the monarchy slingshot is often accomplished (obviously impossible in this game) is by researching straight to philosophy and buying mysticism and polytheism (buying mysticism, and researching writing, polytheism, and philosophy might work in a normal game).Aabraxan said:
The embassy is closed during war, so you can't steal techs that way.
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
lurker's comment: I've been giving some thought to your debate as to which Govt. to choose, and I've reached a rather surprising conclusion. I actually think that Despotism would be the best by far for quite a long time. OK, my ears are ringing as I hear your howls of derision, but hear me out.
This is not a standard game. Many of the rules we learn are not going to apply in a game of AW. So whereas in a normal game your first objective would be to switch to a more progressive form of Govt. - usually Republic -, in AW I believe you already have the best Govt. available, at least until your Empire grows considerably, and you have vanquished your immediate neighbours. I believe it to have two killer advantages over Monarchy, the only realistic alternative.
1) Unit support: every town you put down supports four more military units; in Monarchy, it is half that until a town reaches size 7. Realistically, how many aquaducts are you going to build in the early game? Surely you'll do nothing more than pump out military.
Which brings me to advantage #2) pop rushing; an incredibly powerful tool for AW in the AA, where units are cheap. In Monarchy, it would be a long time before the economy would support cash-rushing units. Remember, although corruption is slightly less in Monarchy, you do not get any commercial bonus, so the economy is unlikely to show much improvement over Despotism for quite a long time.
This is not a standard game. Many of the rules we learn are not going to apply in a game of AW. So whereas in a normal game your first objective would be to switch to a more progressive form of Govt. - usually Republic -, in AW I believe you already have the best Govt. available, at least until your Empire grows considerably, and you have vanquished your immediate neighbours. I believe it to have two killer advantages over Monarchy, the only realistic alternative.
1) Unit support: every town you put down supports four more military units; in Monarchy, it is half that until a town reaches size 7. Realistically, how many aquaducts are you going to build in the early game? Surely you'll do nothing more than pump out military.
Which brings me to advantage #2) pop rushing; an incredibly powerful tool for AW in the AA, where units are cheap. In Monarchy, it would be a long time before the economy would support cash-rushing units. Remember, although corruption is slightly less in Monarchy, you do not get any commercial bonus, so the economy is unlikely to show much improvement over Despotism for quite a long time.
Tribute
Not Sarcastic
Too true ^Bucephalus's post^.
Of course, if your land is basically all floodplains (and rivers, of course) and low on shields, you may consider the change to monarchy because of the consequent high population and commerce. It all depends on the start.
(So roll one) We're waiting!
Of course, if your land is basically all floodplains (and rivers, of course) and low on shields, you may consider the change to monarchy because of the consequent high population and commerce. It all depends on the start.
(So roll one) We're waiting!
Phaedo
Emperor
Despotism is interesting. I don't really mind that and have played a number of games where I have stayed in despotism for quite a while. The unit support is great so perhaps that is a consideration. The despotism penality worries me a bit. I hate losing food.
As to the unit upkeep, although we will be continually producing troops, we will be loosing them too. I'm thinking we will have to carefully focus on military strategy as we won't really have the opportunity to wait until we have an overwhelming military force before we go to war. I have never played this type of game, so I am basically talking out my bum, but I forsee a couple of stacks that will hopefull grow but that growth will be pretty slow due to some attrition
. Artillary units (cats etc.) will stick around but by the time we have a monster standing army might not our cities be big enough to support it?
All that being said, perhaps a quick run to monarchy isn't the best. I'll throw my vote behind IW, but I'd like to get Math sooner than later
As to the unit upkeep, although we will be continually producing troops, we will be loosing them too. I'm thinking we will have to carefully focus on military strategy as we won't really have the opportunity to wait until we have an overwhelming military force before we go to war. I have never played this type of game, so I am basically talking out my bum, but I forsee a couple of stacks that will hopefull grow but that growth will be pretty slow due to some attrition
. Artillary units (cats etc.) will stick around but by the time we have a monster standing army might not our cities be big enough to support it? All that being said, perhaps a quick run to monarchy isn't the best. I'll throw my vote behind IW, but I'd like to get Math sooner than later
CommandoBob
AbstractArt
Aabraxan said:
My understanding would be that if we see a unit we have to contact that unit, if possible. Some units may move through our line of sight on the IBT and we may be unable to contact them (boats and horses come to mind).Arathorn said:
If we see a border before we see a unit, we can ignore/avoid the border as we see fit. We cannot ignore a unit.
I think Bucephalus may have something with staying in depsotism. This is AW. We don't need to be cutting our unit support by half any time soon. Even if we beeline monarchy, though, we'll be a while getting there. If we time our research right, we can just stay in despotism until we are ready to build aques to get unit support up.
Techs we need early:
Iron Works
Math
Wheel & Horseback riding
Initial city placement:
I think we're standing on it.
Initial scout moves:
I think I see water at the eastern edge and NW of the mountain. No way of knowing if it's fresh or sea, though. I'm probably with Phaedo and CivActuary on moving 2W to the mountain, but the bog by the hill makes me question that a little. I might go 1SW and 1S. . . then again, I see jungle 1S+1SE.
Initial worker moves:
Hard to say: either 1W to the BG, or 1 SE to irrigate the grass. Then again, my gut frequently follows the pop=power rule. The BG might be the better choice.
Initial city builds:
Warrior. We might want another goodie-hut-poppin' Scout after the first warrior, but two scouts too fast may get us into wars faster than we really want at this stage. AW doesn't mean stupid.
CommandoBob, thanks for the clarification.
Techs we need early:
Iron Works
Math
Wheel & Horseback riding
Initial city placement:
I think we're standing on it.
Initial scout moves:
I think I see water at the eastern edge and NW of the mountain. No way of knowing if it's fresh or sea, though. I'm probably with Phaedo and CivActuary on moving 2W to the mountain, but the bog by the hill makes me question that a little. I might go 1SW and 1S. . . then again, I see jungle 1S+1SE.
Initial worker moves:
Hard to say: either 1W to the BG, or 1 SE to irrigate the grass. Then again, my gut frequently follows the pop=power rule. The BG might be the better choice.
Initial city builds:
Warrior. We might want another goodie-hut-poppin' Scout after the first warrior, but two scouts too fast may get us into wars faster than we really want at this stage. AW doesn't mean stupid.
CommandoBob, thanks for the clarification.
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
lurker's comment: I would go one further; if you can get the slingshot, I would forget Monarchy for the time being. It's not a required tech, and I think your free tech would be better used getting out of the AA. It could turn out to be critical to be first to Feudalism, and later Chivalry (or Invention if you have no Iron).
Phaedo
Emperor
I think we need a bit more discussion on techs.
As we are at Monarch level, we are even with the AI (I think). The Phil gambit should be seriously considered (I don't think it can be ignored). In an AW varient isn't the GL going to be incredibly helpful? Wouldn't being the first to phil be really good for us no matter what? The question will be what do we need (can we get) before playing the phil gambit with a reasonable amount of success. Or, what do we need to achieve early success such that we can let our opponents do the research for us while we prepare to destroy them
If we see a hut in the near vacinity, it will affect our tech choice, but if that doesn't happen it would seem that an early IW works in our favour so I now throw my vote behind IW
. After that, it would seem to be situationally dependent.
Bucephalus' comment made me think about our build strategy more. What do we want to build and how many do we think we need? We will always be at war so what kind of attack force do we want. How important are 2-move units to us? I'm not a tactical expert so I can't easily answer this but our only option is horses in the early game. Can we get them and do the Phil gambit to Lit and get the GL (if that is what we want)? As we will be fighting a lot, I am assuming getting some Great Leaders can be counted on so the early wonder build is possible ( I know our fearless Defender of the Alamo doesn't like to rely on wonders but in this variant, I think doing without them would be like trying to win WWII without tanks:suicide: ).
As we are at Monarch level, we are even with the AI (I think). The Phil gambit should be seriously considered (I don't think it can be ignored). In an AW varient isn't the GL going to be incredibly helpful? Wouldn't being the first to phil be really good for us no matter what? The question will be what do we need (can we get) before playing the phil gambit with a reasonable amount of success. Or, what do we need to achieve early success such that we can let our opponents do the research for us while we prepare to destroy them
If we see a hut in the near vacinity, it will affect our tech choice, but if that doesn't happen it would seem that an early IW works in our favour so I now throw my vote behind IW
. After that, it would seem to be situationally dependent.Bucephalus' comment made me think about our build strategy more. What do we want to build and how many do we think we need? We will always be at war so what kind of attack force do we want. How important are 2-move units to us? I'm not a tactical expert so I can't easily answer this but our only option is horses in the early game. Can we get them and do the Phil gambit to Lit and get the GL (if that is what we want)? As we will be fighting a lot, I am assuming getting some Great Leaders can be counted on so the early wonder build is possible ( I know our fearless Defender of the Alamo doesn't like to rely on wonders but in this variant, I think doing without them would be like trying to win WWII without tanks:suicide: ).
lurker's comment: Getting a free tech is nice but it's still just one tech and you have to risk a great deal trying to get it. And even if you go max speed towards it some AI might still beat you.
Having followed at least a dozen AW games here and having played many myself I'd start with warrior code (you want archers asap) and then decide between iron working and the wheel. If there's a lot of hills/mountains then IW is probably a better choice. Artillery is a must in always war so mathematics is definately the next big target. After that I'd start working towards monarchy. If you want the great library get literature when you're close to finishing the prebuild (for which you probably need masonry too). Philosophy would be among the last ancient techs on my list.
Having followed at least a dozen AW games here and having played many myself I'd start with warrior code (you want archers asap) and then decide between iron working and the wheel. If there's a lot of hills/mountains then IW is probably a better choice. Artillery is a must in always war so mathematics is definately the next big target. After that I'd start working towards monarchy. If you want the great library get literature when you're close to finishing the prebuild (for which you probably need masonry too). Philosophy would be among the last ancient techs on my list.
Bucephalus
Shooting from the lip....
Phaedo said:
lurker's comment: Unfortunately, you cannot rush a Wonder with an MGL in Conquests.
Phaedo got me to thinking about wonders:
Great Library: In AW, this could be incredibly useful. We won't have the option of trading for research, or getting techs in exchange for peace. OTOH, it's a big investment shieldwise (400?). I think (subject to change, of course) that I'd rather build it than capture it. (In a solo game, I recently captured the Great Lighthouse and I got one tech, Education . . . )
Other foreseeable choices for wonders might include:
Statute of Zeus
Sun Tzu's
Leonardo's Workshop
Knights Templar
Thoughts?
@ Bucephalus: I can't tell if you mean the first to become feudalistic, or the first to discover feudalism. I'm somewhat reluctant to use it as a government because if its unit support structure (5/2/1). Looks to me like that would almost force us into an ICS with tons of towns.
Great Library: In AW, this could be incredibly useful. We won't have the option of trading for research, or getting techs in exchange for peace. OTOH, it's a big investment shieldwise (400?). I think (subject to change, of course) that I'd rather build it than capture it. (In a solo game, I recently captured the Great Lighthouse and I got one tech, Education . . . )
Other foreseeable choices for wonders might include:
Statute of Zeus
Sun Tzu's
Leonardo's Workshop
Knights Templar
Thoughts?
@ Bucephalus: I can't tell if you mean the first to become feudalistic, or the first to discover feudalism. I'm somewhat reluctant to use it as a government because if its unit support structure (5/2/1). Looks to me like that would almost force us into an ICS with tons of towns.
