CBob01 AWM Training Day Game

@ Norton II,
Thanks. No, we don't have a strict 24/72 rule, but CB mentioned 48/96 at one point, iirc. I just don't want to be the guy holding up the game for everyone. The other alternative to putting the game back on track (numerically) is that I could play a shorter turnset next time around. In any event, I'll post the turnlog and save tonight.

Research:
As much as I like the Ansar Plan, I'd really like to know where horses are for city placement considerations. I'm much more interested in The Wheel at this point than HBR. I agree with you on HBR. We need to know where the horses are. We don't need to ride them yet. A prebuild for the Great Library sounds like a good plan. I'd like to found a few more cities before we begin that prebuild, but I think the Great Library would be of tremendous benefit. I recall that I mentioned Sun Tzu's, the SoZ and maybe some other wonders earlier. After playing that turnset, though, I have to change my tune. I think the GLib may well be the wonder to have, at least until it's obsolete.
 
Aabraxan said:
but I think the Great Library would be of tremendous benefit. I recall that I mentioned Sun Tzu's, the SoZ and maybe some other wonders earlier. After playing that turnset, though, I have to change my tune. I think the GLib may well be the wonder to have, at least until it's obsolete.

lurker's comment: IMHO, I would suggest that the Great Wall is probably the Wonder for AW; holding-on to captured cities will be key to your success, and an instant 50% defensive bonus would be invaluable.
 
Aabraxan said:
Bucephalus,
Welcome back. Child is better, I hope?

She is fine now, thank you.

Good point on the Great Wall. Truthfully, I've never built it or the GLib, so maybe I should leave that debate to those who've used them.

Neither would I build either in a 'normal' game, but I'm trying to view this through an AW perspective. What you may be doing is forgetting that unremitting war will give the AI the same WW problems that will beset yourselves; they will be restricted to the same Governments that you will, so no Republic economies. Also, at Monarch level, AI research is pretty feeble, so the GL may have limited use, and anyway expires very early.

Of course, you may get lucky and have a neighbour build one or the other, then you could just capture it.
 
Bucephalus said:
lurker's comment: IMHO, I would suggest that the Great Wall is probably the Wonder for AW; holding-on to captured cities will be key to your success, and an instant 50% defensive bonus would be invaluable.
Great out of the box thinking; I'm still trying to deal with not being able to trade techs at the drop of a hat!

Great Wall lasts until Metallurgy, fairly late in the Middle Ages. It gives an instant defense bonus to all our cities, which is nice.

With The Wheel we see horse resources. Good to know, but if we don't plan to go to HBR right away and use those resources, I think it can wait a few turns.

I am inclined to get Masonry first for the Great Wall, expand our empire (or at least un-expand some other empire) and come back to The Wheel when our borders are a bit larger.
 
lurker's comment: A further thought:

Maybe contact with the other continent(s) is even more important than usual, albeit for different reasons. On your own continent, research will be slow due to the unremitting war. In a wartime economy, AI shields will build units, not libraries or marketplaces, so no cash multipliers; while in despotism, the AI will pop rush for units, so populations don't grow, and fewer tiles are worked for cash; and, as I mentioned in a previous post, there will be no Republic economies because of WW, so cash will be short, and research will be slow after the first flurry of trading.

None of this will be true for the AI on the other continent(s). Therefore, the sooner you meet them, the better. Once you declare war, they will begin the long path to an enforced government change out of Republic. I say the long path because without any actual fighting WW will come slowly. Inevitably but, slowly.
And until that time, they will out-research your continent, for sure. They will probably win the Wonder Races too. When the time comes for you to invade the other continent(s), I suspect that you will already be at a technological (and therefore military) disadvantage. If you leave contact too long, that disadvantage could be very hard to overcome.
 
D'Artagnan59 said:
Get your head out of the other civs.

THIS IS CIV3! GW IS REACHED AT CONSTRUCTION!
As I've said before (but maybe not here) the Ancient Age and I just don't seem to mesh.
:crazyeye:
 
@Aabraxan - looks like you had a good turnset. Looking forward to the full report

- Knowing where horses are may influence our city planning. I think I agree with the point that The Wheel would be good to research next. After that - Alpha and Math?

- To the point where we should at least meet the civs on the other continent, I agree with this, but I don't think we need to rush right over to build a city on the sea, there are still several sites on the dotmap to go for first. Then as I recall there was a few good sites to the east to settle on the water.

- I'm a little nervous with tying up a city with a wonder prebuild right now. First time through an AW game would contribute my anxiety, but IMO we should make sure we are secure military-wise before shooting for that. My hope is we get lucky and a neighbor builds what we want, then we take it.

- Are we going to start building swords exclusively after iron is hooked up?
 
I took a closer look at my most recent save and it was an odd, mid-turn save in the turn immediately after getting WC. That's no good as a hand-off and I think that the next player should get the interturn, so here's a write-up, screenshot and save, up to the point immediately before we actually get WC.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Preflight Assessment:
We know one civ, the Hittites. Naturally, we're at war.
I see one Hittite warrior on the sugar east of Moscow
Iron Working in 9 with one beaker overrun
Mosaic Moscow (2), grows in 10, granary in 6
Silly St. Petey's (2), grows in 15, warrior in 5
Switch SSP to Worker, will complete in 5

IBT: Two Hittites (one regular, one conscript) move north on the mountains west of the chain of lakes west of Mosaic Moscow.
An American scout appears on the mountain 2 SE of the grapes to the north. Americans Have Warrior Code, Alphabet, Ceremonial Burial and Masonry.

Turn 21: 2950
Dial up the American Scout to see if they'll trade. They won't trade me anything. Good-bye for now with note to self to declare war by the end of the turn.
Start both workers mining the grassland.
Warrior 01 steps NW onto a mountain to deal with the two Hittites just mentioned. From there, he spies another Hittite Warrior due south of the game.
Scout 01 goes 2 S to scout the Hittite lands.
Warrior 04 steps 1 SE -- going to fortify him on the hill by sugar.
Dial up Abe one more time, just to see. He won't trade anything, so I threaten him. (Hey, what's the harm? I'm about to declare on him anyway, right?) No dice, so I declare.

IBT: Hittite warriors from both the mountain and south of the game retreat towards home. Turns out that was two warriors south of the game.

Turn 22: 2900
Warrior 04 takes a spot on the hill.
Warrior 01 fortifies.
Scout 01 moves 1 SW. Unfortunately, I forgot about the movement penalty for forest. He finds the coast.
IW in 7
SSP, worker in 3
MM, granary in 4

IBT: zzz

Turn 23: 2850
Warrior 04 moves 1 S onto another hill. I want to see if I can bait that lone Hittite into attacking.
Scout 01 1N, spies 2 Hittites (regular & conscript) on a mountain. Flees 1 NW.
Assess SSP -- citizens already working most productive tiles.
Assess MM -- same.

IBT: Sugarboy attacks and dies. Warrior 04 promoted to Veteran!
American scout passes in and out of the fog N of SSP.
Workers finish mines.
Hittites headed north through the mountains again.

Turn 24: 2800
Begin roading with one worker.
Move other worker to flood plain.
Warrior 04 moves 1 N. He's going Scout-hunting.
Check SSP -- Worker in 1 w/ no overrun
Check MM --- granary in 2, w/ 2 overrun if I do nothing.
Scout 01 moves 1 N (to avoid jungle), and 1 NW. Three bananas in this area.

IBT: Two groups of Hittites emerge from the fog: (1) two (regular & conscript) headed North along the mountains to the west (let's give these a name, how about the Freshwater Mountains?); and (2) another pair (2 regulars) due south of Warrior 01 (1S of the game). The pair in the mountains is 7 turns out and must pass through warrior 01; the pair to the south is 6 turns out, but could (theoretically) bypass W01. W01 can be home in 3.

Turn 25: 2750
SSP has finished its worker. It's now size 1, grows in 5, warrior in 5.
I decide to use the new worker close to home. He moves 1 S, where he'll start the road.
War04 1 N
Worker on the FP begins irrigation.
Scout 01 goes 1 N onto the hill. From there, he sees American borders.
Moscow is about to overrun by 2 shield on the granary. I look into the possibility of making a beakerhead or tax collector, but a specialist at this point results in zero growth. We're only 5t from growing, and I decide to live with the shield overrun.

IBT: The two Freshwater Hittites disappear into the fog to the North; the two Gamey Hittites move north towards Warrior 01.
Mosaic Moscow completes the granary, set to warrior. Growth in 4 turns, Warrior in 2.

Turn 26: 2710 BC
Worker S of SSP begins road.
Warrior 04 decides not to scout-hunt any more, heads W towards Mosaic Moscow.
Scout 01 N x2
Treasury at 37, -1 gpt
IW in 3 -- at 90%, which is breaking even, we could get it in 4.
I decide to keep going deficit until we get IW.

IBT: Gamey Hittites move towards Mosaic Moscow. Warrior 01 could attack this turn.
American Scout comes into view on the hill 2 E of SSP.

Turn 27: 2670:
Worker 01 onto oasis.
Scout 01 moves 1 N, 1 NW, along the American border.
Warrior 04 moves onto the oasis.
Wake Warrior 01. Let's kill a Hittite.
Oops. Warrior 01 dies.

IBT: Two Freshwater Hittites come across the pass that Warrior 01 was guarding before his untimely demise. They meet up with the Gamey Hittites. Great, now we've got 4 Hittites headed our way . . . Sorry, guys.
Mosaic Moscow is garrisoned by 2, with another being build in 2 and Warrior 04 (veteran) arriving before the Hittites can.
SSP also has a warrior being built in 2.
Research will overrun by 1, so I move the slider to 90% to make it break even.

Turn 28: 2630
Rename the newly-christened warrior at MM "Warrior 05" and fortify him.
Worker 01 begins roading the oasis.
Warrior 04 goes 1 S -- he's now one turn from MM on the mined/roaded tile.
Scout 01 goes 2 NW onto a hill.
Current status:
3 Workers
3 Warriors
1 Scout
35 gold

IBT: Iron Working Discovered. I direct our sages to begin their work on the Warrior Code. I move the slider to maximum research. We'll have it in 11 turns at breaking even (90%). We could get it in 10 if we went 100% (-1 gpt), but I opt not to do that right now. All 4 Hittites begin migrating towards MM. They've split into two stacks. An American settler is spotted headed east inside American borders. He appears to be alone . . .
There's iron at YellowDot Hill! There's also Iron 2 N, 1 E from SSP. And a third source just across the Freshwater Mountains.

Turn 29: 2590
Warrior 04 moves into Mosaic Moscow.
Flood Plain irrigated, roading begins.
Worker south of SSP renamed Worker 03. He's finished his road. Worker on the oasis should finish his in 2, and Worker on FP is 3 turns out from his road.
Worker 03 moves south to begin irrigation back towards SSP.
Scout 01 NW x2, sees some gems, but they're a long way from home.

Status:
SSP (1) growth=1, warrior=1
MM (2) growth=1, warrior=1
3 workers
4 warriors
1 scout
35 gold +0 gpt
Hittite borders are too long for just one city. They must have at least two.
American borders look like they may have just one.

IBT:
MM: warrior --> warrior
SSP: warrior -->
4 Hittites move into a stack on one of our mined & roaded tiles.
A German archer appears on the hill NE of SSP.
(One nervous Aabraxan begins to debate the sanity of AW games . . . )

Turn 30:
Call Otto. He's got Masonry, Warrior Code and Ceremonial Burial. We've got no techs to trade. He won't sell us Masonry or Ceremonial Burial. Once again, I figure, "What the heck?" and I try to threaten for WC. No luck. How 'bout CB? No? Masonry? No. . . Tired of being sneered at, I declare war.
Newly-named Warrior 06 moves 1 NE onto the hill.
I currently have 4 Warriors in MM. I fortify all and await the Hittite attack.
Scout01 goes 1 NW, the 1 NE, up onto the gem mountain.
Unit support has begun to eat into our treasury. I can either get WC in 8 at (-2 gpt), get it in 10 at (-1 gpt), or move it back to 11 turns at breaking even. I want it in 8.

IBT: Hittites attack. They lose 2, we lose one and Warrior 04 is now Elite! Then they turn and attack some invisible foe on the hill 1 W, 1 NW from Mosaic Moscow. One of them is promoted to Veteran.
American scout jumps on the hill right next to the worker on the FP, making me very nervous.
Road from MM to SSP finished.

Turn 31: 2450
Warrior 06 moves towards our labor force for protection
Scout 01 moves 2 N. This is a big continent, guys.
Worker 02 will finish his road in 1; Worker 03 will finish irrigation in 3.
Worker 01 can't go start roading towards yellow dot because of the Hittites in our territory. So he joins Worker 02 to help finish irrigation.
Wake all warriors in MM for counterattack.
Warrior 05 (regular) kills a Hittite.
Warrior 02 (regular) dies, but redlines a hittite.
Warrior 04 (elite) kills the last hittite.
Mosaic Moscow is down to one defender inside (w/ Warrior 04 outside), but will produce another in 1 turn.
SSP is garrisoned by 2, produces another in 4.

IBT:
MM warrior --> warrior
American Scout moves inside our boundaries. Brave little snot, isn't he?

Turn 32: 2470
Warrior 06 moves in and captures the Scout.
Renamed to Scout 02, he heads west to find the invisible foe that attacked the Hittites. He goes 2 W up onto a hill and finds . . . nobody.
Scout 01 moves 1 N, and spots a Hittite scout. He then moves 1 NW to bust some fog. Unfortunately, the poor soul crosses a river and stops . . . right next to an American warrior. Good thing I captured that scout.
Warrior 05 (regular, redlined) fortifies.
New warrior duly named Warrior 06. He moves down to the end of our road, and 1 S, just to see what he can see. No enemies in sight.
Warrior 04 (elite, green), moves back into MM.
Worker 01 begins irrigation. That should finish irrigation in that square in 1 turn.
I consider moving Worker 03 into the square. If I did that, I could road it in one turn. However, if we're attacked there in the next turn, our labor force is totally decimated. so I choose something else. I move him down towards YellowDot to begin roading.

MM 3, grows in 2
SSP 2, grows in 18
WC in 5
Treasury 33, -1 gpt
Workers 3
Warriors 5
Scouts: 2 (technically), but about to be 1

IBT: Scout 01 lost to German warrior

Turn 33: 2430
Scout 02 begins a trek south.
Warrior 04 moves towards YellowDot Hill. From there, he can defend against intruders from the Hittite empire, as well as protect our roading workers.
Worker 01 begins roading irrigated tile.
Worker somethingorother moves into position to begin roading.
MM is one turn from growth, one turn from a warrior. I could change to a settler at this point and get it in 5, but I really think we need that sixth warrior. So I'm going to finish him and then begin a settler for YellowDot.

IBT:
MM: warrior --> settler (5)(growth in 4)

Turn 34: 2390
Warrior 06 moves north to protect our workers.
Worker begins last road necessary for YellowDot Trail.
Warrior 04 takes station on YellowDot Hill.
Warrior Whatshisname moves SE of the game to explore.
Worker begins irrigating desert towards SSP.
Mosaic Moscow now has an unhappy laborer. Making a specialist would result in zero growth, so I kick the lux slider up to 10%. Treasury is at 33 and -1 gpt, but we'll have WC in 3.

IBT:
SSP: warrior --> warrior


Turn 35: 2350
Warrior 04 fortifies
Warrior Whatshisname moves towards the mountain some more.

IBT:
3 Regular Americans move onto the Mountain 2 SE of the grapes. Time to start bringing troops home again.

Turn 36: 2310
Worker moves NW towards SSP & begins helping with irrigation. Finished in 1.
Worker 6 comes down off the mountain.
Warrior 06 begins heading home to MM.
The other Warrior 06 (the one guarding some workers in our borders) moves into Moscow. Sorry about the naming snafu.

Warrior Code in 1. As I don't know what we'll research next, I'll end here until I get feedback.
7 Warriors
3 Workers
1 Scout
Iron Located
30 gold (-2 gpt)

Here endeth Aabraxan's Chronicle of Conquering Cossacks, Part the Second

 
lurker's comment: With the discovery of Iron Working, and finding iron on yellow dot, are you going to settle yellow dot before the dot west of Silly. St Peteys? :scan:

Also, CommandoBob, just noticed that you and Aabraxan are both very organized in your logs and very detailed. Very nice, IMHO. :thumbsup:
 
OK, here are my thoughts thus far.

First, as you can see, we've got three sources of iron nearby: (1) one under the warrior standing on Yellow Dot Hill; (2) one almost due NW of that same warrior 5 tiles or so; and (3) one NE of the American warriors about 3 klicks.

If there were any questions as to settling order, I think the Yellow Dot Hill with Iron should be settled next. By my calculations Yellow Dot can be settled in 6 turns.The worker will finish the road in 2. Moscow grows in 3 and produces a settler in 3. One move to the edge of Moscow's cultural borders, one move onto Yellow Dot Hill, and then settled. (3(build) +1(move) +1(move) +1 (settle)). (Somebody please correct me if I'm wrong in this). At that point, we can immediately start building swords. We can start building archers before that.

Attacks from the Hittites consistently came across Yellow Dot Hill. That city will need to be a heavily fortified stronghold. The other place the Hittites sent units was up past the game to the south. I think the kill zone discussed earlier is going to be a thing of beauty (fingers crossed)! Oddly, the Hittites kept splitting up their stacks and sending one group over Yellow Dot Hill and the other past the game. I had a warrior fortified by Yellow Dot Hill for a while, and it totally befuddled the Hittites. They sent warriors up past YDH to the west, but would not come across. Let's make sure to use this tendency to split stacks against the Hittites.

Americans appear to be coming across the northern end of the Freshwater Mountains. I have not actually engaged them, so I don't have much more info.

Same with the Germans. One German archer stationed himself on a hill NE of SSP, always within sight, but never attacked. He emerged from the fog to the NE, so he must have come all the way around the continent to the north of SSP.

Like CivActuary, I'm nervous about starting our prebuild (of whatever we decide to build) too early. Wonders (& prebuilds) take a city out of production for a very long time. I'm reluctant to start a prebuild before we have at least 5 or 6 cities. Fortunately, now that Moscow has a granary, that won't be that long.

As I've said, I think The Wheel is next, but only to help us find the horses. That said, none of the suggestions out there are going to hurt my feelings any. They all have good points. Walls are good, curraghs are good -- just a question of which one we want next.
 
Ansar the King said:
With the discovery of Iron Working, and finding iron on yellow dot, are you going to settle yellow dot before the dot west of Silly. St Peteys? :scan:

Maybe I was mistaken, but I thought we had decided to settle Yellow Dot first anyway. Regardless, I certainly think it needs to be first. Two reasons: (1) iron; and (2) the Hittites like to send troops over that pass.

Also, CommandoBob, just noticed that you and Aabraxan are both very organized in your logs and very detailed. Very nice, IMHO. :thumbsup:

Thank you.
 
Aabraxan said:
Maybe I was mistaken, but I thought we had decided to settle Yellow Dot first anyway. Regardless, I certainly think it needs to be first. Two reasons: (1) iron; and (2) the Hittites like to send troops over that pass.
lurker's comment: My mistake...back into my corner now... :blush: :scan:
 
Good turns, Aabraxan. Nothing like three angry civs to make the early game exciting, right?

Per CAII: Hittites UU is the Three-Man Chariot, which we might see rather soon; didn't investigate further. Hittite aggression is high; German aggression is maximum, American aggression is average.

The Three Man Chariot cannot move in mountians that have no roads, so they may not appear for a while.

After MM builds the settler, we need some spears for defense. Warriors will soon be unavailable to us and swords are too expensive to be our only defense. I'm thinking that SSP can make a spear for itself. MM can make two spears, one going to Yellow Dot City (or whatever we call it) the other stays at home and escorts the next settler. Then YDC and SSP focus on swords/spears and MM makes settler/spear combos.

I am not all that fond of spears. But since swords and spears both defend with '2', we need some cheap defenders and spears are it.
 
CommandoBob said:
After MM builds the settler, we need some spears for defense. Warriors will soon be unavailable to us and swords are too expensive to be our only defense. I'm thinking that SSP can make a spear for itself. MM can make two spears, one going to Yellow Dot City (or whatever we call it) the other stays at home and escorts the next settler. Then YDC and SSP focus on swords/spears and MM makes settler/spear combos.

I am not all that fond of spears. But since swords and spears both defend with '2', we need some cheap defenders and spears are it.
Agreed. I'm not usually a big fan of spearmen either, but they're quite useful for AW. As for research, I agree that The Wheel should be our next tech, followed by Masonry-Alpha-Math. It'd be good to be able to build walls in all our towns soon.
When I mentioned the GL earlier, I didn't mean that we should start a wonder prebuild right away; we should definitely build several cities and a fair number of units first. As for GL vs. GW, I'd still say GL. AI research may be sluggish at this level, but ours will be, too. For example, we've met 3 civs and were unable to make a single trade before declaring war. Additionally, unit support is going to be a problem for quite a while, especially once we switch to Monarchy and before we have a fair number of cities at size 7 or above. That'll limit our research capability. Also, don't forget that we are unlikely to have a GA until we get Cossacks, so if the GL can get us closer to Military Tradition faster than self-research can, we should definitely build it.
 
Well played Aabra:D
This AW thing is freaky but it does get the blood pumping.

I agree about the spears and wheel too.

With the Yanks moving in up there, might we want to settle that hill SE if the grapes before our pink choice? If horses are to appear, there is a good chance they will do it on plains and the vast majority of our plains are north of SSP. That town wouldn't be a big grower, but it could have possibly 2 FP to work (sometimes depending on our MMing). It would also cut Moscow off from our enemies.

Of course the pink dot would grow faster and have BGs to work. I'm just thinking that as we are at war with everyone, we can't really focus on one enemy at a time like we normally would.

Another thought is that hill between the two sugars. Once irrigated, those sugars and the FP should give us +5 food right? Isn't that a settler pump? I don't want to confuse things but I was looking at the screenie and it got me wondering. EDIT: I guess with the despotism penality it isn't. Got too excited there:(

It also seems we are going to have cash problems but there isn't really much we can do about it now. Are there any tricks (other than turning down the research bar to avoid wasted beakers) to build up our bank?

My other question is about turn sets. As I am up next, how may should I play?
I just want to make sure I know the plan before i take it:)
 
Phaedo said:
My other question is about turn sets.
From here on out, 10 turns per turn set. At some later point we may need to go to 5 turns per turn set, when the unit count is really high and the turns start to take a long time to play, but not now.

One thing I would like to stress at this point:

It never hurts to stop and ask for help.

More often than not, when I have a game issue (trade/don't trade; war now/war later) I tend to focus on just that issue. Sometimes stopping the game and walking away from it helps. When that doesn't, I'll post the turns I've played, attach/upload the save, and then discuss whatever it is that is being a problem. The issue will be discussed, I'll get direction/guidance and finish the turns.

Having a different set of eyes looking at a problem helps a lot.

There is no stigma in this forum when you say 'I need help' or 'I'm not sure what to do next'.
 
Great job Aabraxan!

I agree about spears as cheap defenders, which is why I mentioned something about maybe going swords? only in my last post. I have read a few players that dislike using defensive units, but I have no such biases and, as Norton points out, in AW defenders are useful. Especially against German archers or Hittite chariots ;)

After yellow dot, if it were me alone, I'd go grape hill next for the lux. Not sure if that is a good move though.

Phaedo's Hill (between the sugars) is also coastal, and would allow a curragh to get out. Something to think about I suppose.

I think we are all agreed that the Wheel should be next.

I find myself agreeing with Norton about the GL over the GW. Some questions I have been asking myself
-How many cities will we need walls in? Are they worth the cost of building the GW versus walls in those cities?
-How much will it cost us to self research Monarchy? Especially if we are having cash issues.
-Which are we more likely to be able to get?
 
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