CBob01 AWM Training Day Game

[Phaedo]

Point taken about the undeveloped FP. I stand ashamed. If we want to use it, we need to develop it. It was a worker mistake not, I think a MMing mistake. I really don't know why it happened. Usually I am obsessive about food

As for the scout though, in my defense, he didn't start busting new fog until we had already met and declared agains Babylon (Bringing us to 4 wars: Hittites, USA, Germany and Babylon). In all likelyhood those are the civs we face on our continent and I thought that as we are already at war with them, it would be a good idea to know who we are facing and where they are. As we are at war, wouldn't any information about out opponents be useful? There was also the possibility of goddy huts.

 

[Norton II]

Point taken about the undeveloped FP. I stand ashamed. If we want to use it, we need to develop it. It was a worker mistake not, I think a MMing mistake. I really don't know why it happened. Usually I am obsessive about food

As for the scout though, in my defense, he didn't start busting new fog until we had already met and declared agains Babylon (Bringing us to 4 wars: Hittites, USA, Germany and Babylon). In all likelyhood those are the civs we face on our continent and I thought that as we are already at war with them, it would be a good idea to know who we are facing and where they are. As we are at war, wouldn't any information about out opponents be useful? There was also the possibility of goddy huts.

I agree about the scout. Now that we're probably at war with everybody on our continent, we should explore as much as possible, and if there are still huts to pop, we should pop them. As for the flood plains, it might not be the worst idea to irrigate the other one and get Mosaic Moscow to 3-turn growth. Once we've got wines hooked up, unhappiness won't be as much of a problem, and we can get settlers out faster (escorted, of course). BTW, another worker might be useful; anyone else think so? Also, Aabraxan asked about barracks a little earlier. I think we should get them up soon, but we ought to have a few swordsmen around to do the fighting while the barrracks are being built. Maybe archers instead, since they're cheaper and can easily deal with the units we've encountered so far. IOW, maybe swordsmen should wait until we can build vets.

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

lurker's comment:

I stand ashamed

Don't. Don't think about what dou did wrong, think about what you did right, and how what was wrong could have been done right. Then you'll start improving - and have an easier time keep the morale up

...I do not think that I know what I do not know.

Promising already

 

[Aabraxan]

I agree with Nortion II about the barracks. I asked about them primarily to get them on everyone's "radar screen." We need them soon, but not right this minute. I also agree that another worker would be handy.

Obviously, war will always be a priority for us. But if we use MM primarily for pumping out settlers, the wines will go a long way towards keeping our citizens happy.

Forgive my forgetfulness, but what did we decide on after Alpha?

 

[Norton II]

AFAIK, we're researching math next to get catapults. After that, I don't think we've decided anything for sure. I'd like to go for writing and lit next if we're going to build the GL. If not, maybe construction, then a monarchy beeline. No need to decide just this minute, though.

 

[Phaedo]

I guess we did decide on Math but after thinking about it a bit, I think it depends if we are going for the GL or not. I'm all for math but if we are going to go for the GL, maybe we should head for it now. I don't know if scientific leaders are on, but as we are scientific, if we get to Lit through being the first to Phil, we are pretty much guaranteed a sci leader. That's an instant GL. This may be an exploit that's not allowed or they may be turned off making it irrelevant.

If we are going for the GL (and I suppose it would effectively allow us to keep a larger army), then by the time we get Lit, math would be cheap (or probably instant if the sci leader thing is on). It might be more efficient to get it first. Cats are nice on defence and for weakening invading forces but their real value is in taking cities right? Do we think we will be ready to take cities before we get the GL? If so, it makes sense to get Math first. If not, we'll get it anyway.

If we're not going for the GL, I think NortonII's math->construction->monarchy is a good bet.

 

[Bucephalus]

I don't know if scientific leaders are on, but as we are scientific, if we get to Lit through being the first to Phil, we are pretty much guaranteed a sci leader.

lurker's comment: AFAIK, your chances are still only 5% even with being Scientific.

 

[Phaedo]

lurker's comment: AFAIK, your chances are still only 5% even with being Scientific.

Really, I didn't know that. It's happened the last four times in a row for me. I just assumed it was a guaranteed thing.

As for the dot map, here is what I quickly worked up (sorry for the bad graphics):

A decesion should be made between the pink and purple dot but I think my vote goes to pink as it would set up our kill zone nicely and set up taking the spices and horses with a CxxC pattern. The purple is in better position from Moscow but I think the overall layout of the pink is to our advantage. .

I'd say pink/purple or yellow should be settled next. I like the idea of stealing the wine from the Americans and it would keep a nice defence from the Hittites as well. If we do go fro yellow however, we will need a pretty strong escort to protect us from the Yanks and the Barbs.

The green dot is weak but I couldn't see another way to get the horses. Really, if we had blue, we could probably just forget about green. After lookig at it a bit more, I think a city between the horses and iron would be a much better position so let's just pretend that green dot isn't there

 

[Norton II]

If we want to skip math for now, maybe we ought to go directly for lit rather than try to get philosophy first--everyone we know except the Babs is up alpha on us already, so if they're also up writing (which we won't know for 7 turns), one of them will almost certainly get philosophy before we do. We're more likely to get an SGL from lit that from philo, but we shouldn't count on it. I'd rather set up a prebuild, probably in Pink Dot once it's founded. Speaking of which, here's a dotmap I came up with last night (keep in mind that this is my first attempt at dotmapping):

I'd rather go for the wines up north than those near New York, though Phaedo's wine city would make a good kill zone as well. If the Americans beat us to it, we should settle on White Dot. I think Pink, Light Green, and Light yellow should be our first priorities, though, followed by White Dot and Light Blue Circle (around the spices). That'll get us our kill zone and our luxes; Red Dot (or maybe Blue Dot) should come after that for horses, and the rest can wait.

 

[CommandoBob]

General Note on Dotmaps:
I find it helpful (and sometimes confusing) to also show the initial nine tiles that each new city would claim. That is, I draw a box around the city dot using the same color as the city dot. And since I draw poorly, I also turn on the map grid.

This helps to spot overlap and connections.

General Notes on Our Dots
Building our next cities will also determine who we will focus our fighting on. Grabbing the wines next to New York will bring us closer to the Americans. That city will face a lot of attacks by the Yanks and we will need to protect our worker with a couple of units.

Grabbing the north wines will be safer since we could actually settle on those wines. We may lose some growth ability, but that might be worth if for some happy citizens. And since the north seems rather quiet, we could get by with only a one unit escort for any workers in the area.

But the real decision is whom do we want to kill first: the Light Blue Americans or the sort-of Light Blue Hittites? We should build our non-luxury cities towards that civ.

In fact, building towards the Yankee wines but claiming the northern wines may be a very smart move. The Yanks will still attack but we have no units on the flat lands to defend.

 

[CivActuary]

Gut reactions:

The only thing that would worry me on trying to grab the wines by New York would be being too strung out - we'd be basically built in a straight line and getting reinforcements from one end of the empire to another might take a while. I'd favor the wines in the north.

Those are some primo lands to our south though - I see (from the dotmap only since I'm at work right now) rivers and cows all good for growing. I think settling that direction (ie pink, light green, and light yellow from Norton's) would be good.

We should decide which wonder we are going for now.
If GL we should go straight for Writing and then Lit.
If GW we should go Math and Construction.

I think we should build a couple archers for some offensive punch, then lay down some barracks to build vet swords.

 

[Aabraxan]

Just some quick thoughts:

I think we need to reach some sort of (quasi) firm decision on whether we want the GLib or the GW. We seem to have narrowed it down to those two wonders for the moment and they'd both be incredibly useful. We get Alpha in 7 turns and I think that our research path forks at that point -- we can't do both paths well. I'm pretty nervous about not having the GLib, just because we can't trade for techs, but, then again, I'm also nervous about not having the GW. . . (I'm generally nervous about this game.) The GW path includes cats and we can build them as well without barracks as with. I'm leaning towards GW, but I do have one question. If we build it, cities that we capture get automatic & instant walls, right? What happens if we lose one of those cities? Do they keep the walls?

The Hittites aren't going to be able to bring 3-wheel chariots over the mountains, but they might bring them up from the south. If they kill a unit with one, they get their GA. The Americans can't get a UU-triggered GA for a very long time.

We don't have CB yet, but . . . Now this may be a half-baked plan and I'm counting on you guys to tell me if it is. After we get CB, can we settle Phaedo's blue dot (1 NE of Norton II's blue dot), crank some settlers out of MM, join them to the blue dot and whip a temple? Wouldn't that allow us to grab both the horses and the wine? Or is that stretching ourselves too thin? Also, how much does the AI pillage colonies?

Settlement: On Phaedo's map, I like the purple dot better than pink. I always lean towards a denser empire for reinforcement purposes. As far as what order we settle in, I say go for the wines to the north (not by NY). I agree that trying to grab them (the ones by NY) at this point leaves us way too strung out. After that, maybe purple by the river or south to the horses near MM?

And now, for Aabraxan's Noobie Question of the Day:
How do you turn on the map grid? I've looked at my preferences, but haven't been able to find it.

 

[Bucephalus]

What happens if we lose one of those cities? Do they keep the walls?

lurker's comment: No.

How do you turn on the map grid? I've looked at my preferences, but haven't been able to find it.

lurker's comment: Control + G.

 

[Aabraxan]

Thanks Bucephalus.

As to my suggestion earlier, I just read the GOTM rules today and it looks like joining workers to pop-rush is disallowed there . . .

 

[Norton II]

We don't have CB yet, but . . . Now this may be a half-baked plan and I'm counting on you guys to tell me if it is. After we get CB, can we settle Phaedo's blue dot (1 NE of Norton II's blue dot), crank some settlers out of MM, join them to the blue dot and whip a temple? Wouldn't that allow us to grab both the horses and the wine? Or is that stretching ourselves too thin? Also, how much does the AI pillage colonies?

I'd prefer to use settlers to found cities, and I'd prefer those cities to have resources in their initial 9-tile radius to make cultural expanison unnecessary (I'd rather use 60 shields for 2 swordsmen than for a temple). That's why I put Blue Dot and White Dot where I did; neither is a first-rate city location, but both allow us to claim a resource without having to build a temple or library. As for colonies, they don't need to be pillaged; if an enemy unit moves onto the tile containing the colony, that colony is automatically destroyed. The AI will do this given the opportunity. That's why we shouldn't build colonies, not to mention we don't want to lose workers at this point in the game.

As to my suggestion earlier, I just read the GOTM rules today and it looks like joining workers to pop-rush is disallowed there . . .

Are we playing by GOTM rules or by some other set of rules?

Now, GL vs. GW: I'd rather build the GL. It'll help us catch up in tech and save money. Money is a definite issue in monarchy; there's no commerce bonus, but unit support is low (until your cities grow), and pop-rushing isn't available. True, the GW would be nice, but it might be more cost-effective just to build walls in our "kill zone" cities. Cities in the interior and along the eastern coast probably won't need them, and once we start going on the offensive, we'll probably stay on the offensive, so captured cities may not need them either.

 

[CommandoBob]

Now this may be a half-baked plan and I'm counting on you guys to tell me if it is. After we get CB, can we settle Phaedo's blue dot (1 NE of Norton II's blue dot), crank some settlers out of MM, join them to the blue dot and whip a temple?

Ah, not quite.

The key to me was 'crank some settlers out of MM'.

So lets say we make three settlers in one turn and send them all the Phaedo's Blue Dot. They all arrive at the same time and in one turn Blue Dot City is at size 5. Now on the next turn we are going to whip citizens to rush a temple. I'm not sure of the math, but lets say it takes 4 citizens to make that temple. So on turn 2 the city goes from size 5 down to size 1. On turn 3 we complete the temple and in 5 more turns we have a culture expansion to claim the land we want.

We could achieve the same thing with just two settlers, if we placed them just right. And get both goodies faster; probably on the same turn. And not waste citizens (from the pop-rush) and production time (making the settlers that get wasted to make a temple).

Good idea, but I don't think you thought it all the way through. Not thinking things through is a real good way to learn how things really work, but the learning curve can be a bit steep. The University of Hard Knocks is a great teacher but the methods used to drive home a point are very painful.

But having ideas and seeing if they work or not is part of what a Training Day Game is all about. So don't give up on having ideas.

Are we playing by GOTM rules or by some other set of rules?

As far as allowed cheats, exploits, etc, let' s use the GOTM rules. They are fairly standard and not too cumbersome or restrictive.

 

[Phaedo]

In the north, Norton's blue and white dot are much better than by blue and green one. I should have used a bigger screenshot and looked at the bigger picture. Stealing Abe's wines was just a thought and not a really good one. Actually if we are going to steal something it makes much more sense to deprive him of iron. As for pink vs. Purple, like Norton, my opinion is that pink is better. True, it is bit far from Moscow but Moscow will be producing settlers for a while and Pink (or purple) won't be getting many units from that direction while Iron city will be a fair producer and Pink is only 2 from it. In addition, Pink will grow fast and the extra space to grow won't hurt it or Moscow.

Here's a bit of a simplified dot map without the US wine city and the addition of a US iron city. the others are the same as Norton's.

Looking at just these choices, Pink would seem to be the obvious next choice for a city. The order in which we expand north and south should be discussed though. the kill zone city (not on this map) is important but I can't really estimate when we will be ready for it. Maybe we want to rush there (to head off the Hittites) or maybe we want to expand north a bit first. Maybe the question is: can we squeeze out the white dot before the Hittites claim our kill zone or make it overly arduous for us to claim? Regardless, I like placing white first and then infilling blue.

I don't think the green dot is at the top of the priority list but denying other civs of iron could be EXTREMELY helpful to us as we will be fighting them for the rest of the game. An earlyish White also makes it hard for the AI to claim that northern iron

I don't know why my shots are all fuzzy. Sorry
Here's an attached file that may be clearer. My earlier screenies weren't bad. I wonder what's wrong

 

[CommandoBob]

I like Pink as our first next city. It is closer to the Hittites and we get across the river.

I am considering two white dot cities, one on the wines and one NW of the iron, on a coastal hill. Where the White Dot is now, we have to build a library or temple to claim the iron by culture expansion. If we build a city we get more bang for our buck (no upkeep on the building plus we make money from our citizens.) The real key to how effective these two cities could be is how fast we could get roads to them. We don't need a second iron but the AIs don't need any iron.

Aside from cities, we need to decide on science after Alphabet, Wonder building and who will be the subject of our first major war effort.

 

[Phaedo]

As for research, I think we need WC. Archers are pretty cheap and we could build a few quickly to ward off threats without comitting the turns to swords.

As for wonders, my vote is for GL too. Maybe it's just because it's comfortable. I just forsee major cash issues in the future and walls are quick and free for upkeep so the short term benifit of WC is much greater.

White on the wines wouldn't be bad at all. roading would be a bit difficult but it would allow a costal city (with slow growth to claim the iron) later. If we are going to steal iron, it's that western iron that will be in contention before the northern one and it seems like the only competetor for both is Abe. If the strategy is to steal from Abe, the western one would seem to be the first choice. If we are going to accept that Abe gets iron, we won't have to protect the northern one for quite a while (until another Ai get trebs and it would be nice to know where they are to assess that threat) so we should just focus on best placement for growth.

I'm convinced we should focus on overcoming the Hittites first. They are close, will compete for land and are our greatest short-term threat. The Americans are quite far away and I think with well defended cities we can keep them at bay for a while without having to exert ourselves (plus they lost 3 warriors on my turn set so they are presently weak). We have a relative military advantage over the Americans as opposed to other civs as they have lost more units. It would be much easier to mount a concerted offensive against the Hittites while keeping the Yanks at bay than the reverse. I just wonder if there isn't a way to capitalize on Abe's present relative weakness.

Abe is industrious and his capital is on good land (so is the Hittite cap). The Hittites are close and can give us earlier pressure. But Abe has lost three warriors. He will grow faster than the Hittites because he can develop his land faster. If he gets iron, he will be that much harder to deal with. We aren't in a position to take him down significantly yet but we should seriously think about blocking him from the iron. If we don't set up a city to do it, a couple of warriors running interference against the settler he eventually sends that way might be a good compromise. The Americans with archers against our swords is a lot nicer than their swords against ours. I don't have the answers but Abe poses a serious mid-range threat and if we could find a way to minimize it, I think our life will be much easier later. Of course, maybe I'm just worring too much because this AW thing is so disconcerting.

 

[Norton II]

As for research, I think we need WC. Archers are pretty cheap and we could build a few quickly to ward off threats without comitting the turns to swords.

We've already got WC, but you're right about archers, as well as about focusing on the Hittites first. Also, stealing the wines wasn't a bad idea at all; it's just that we might not be able to beat the Americans to that location and beat the Hittites to the good locations near them.