CBob01 AWM Training Day Game

[CivActuary]

Re: FP placement
I think if we use a MGL to rush it, we don't need to build it in the core. On the contrary, since it still gives an effect to the city it is built in, we should choose a hopelessly corrupt place for it - maybe even Hattusas, since the lands around there are pretty good - it was a capital - and could gain from the lower corruption.

Otherwise, since this is C3C, I don't think the FP gives any other effects to the cities around it, just the one it is in plus the overall empire effect.

@Cbob - Sorry to say I didn't bring the stuff in with me today. I'll post it when I get home from work (5:30EST or so) so we can analyze further.

 

[CivActuary]

Order of Battle:
2 Settlers
21 Workers (4 native, 17 slave)
1 Archer (1e)
18 Spearmen (3r/13v/2e)
8 Swordsmen (7v/1e)
3 Sword Armies (1v/2e)
6 Horsemen (4v/2e)
32 Catapults
1 Mace

State of the Empire:
Mosaic Moscow (5) grows in 4, vMace in 5
Yakkity Yakutsk (5) grows in 6, vMace in 6
New Horse Town (5) grows in 2, vPike in 7
Iron Hill (6) grows in 3, vMace in 5
Halifax (4) grows in 14, vMace in 1
Silly St. Peteys (3) no growth, Catapult in 2
Rowdy Rostov (7) no growth, vMace in 1
Gold Hill(2) grows in 11, vMace in 3
YarYar (3) shrinking, vPike in 6
JellyBank (2), grows in 15, Walls in 3
Hot 'n Spicey (4) grows in 6, vPike in 2
West Moscow (2) grows in 3, Walls in 3
Savignon Samara (4) grows in 9, Rax in 19
Murmur (3) grows in 2, vPike in 13
Hattusha (1) grows in 2, Catapult in 8
Somewhere City (2) grows in 7, Walls in 10
Anywhere (1) grows in 7, Walls in 17

Total Builds:
Mace - 6 (MM, YakYak, IH, Hfax, RR, and GH)
Pike - 4 (NHT, YarYar, HnS, and Murmur)
Walls - 4 (JB, WMoscow, Somewhere, Anywhere)
Catapult - 2 (SSP and Hattusha)
Barracks - 1 (SavSam)

We are in Despotism at 4.5.1
Engineering is due in 11 turns, we are +3gpt with 34g in the bank.

PreFlight:
- YarYar is shrinking. However, getting rid of the geek means Engineering in 12 not 11. I have 4 turns until the shrink, let's see what happens before then.
- Somewhere City has only 2 Horse to defend it, one of which is at 2/5, and the city can be directly attacked from Hittite space. This makes me nervous. Wake the vSpear in Murmur since Murmur is safe right now and move to somewhere.
- In JellyBank, move the tile from the lake to the hill to get walls in 2 not 3. We will lose 2 turns of growth but IMO we need the walls more with all those Germans around. Worried about this town holding, it is set to receive 3 attacks with 50% chance of losing each. Won't fall this turn but that is a serious dent in the defences.
- We need some more defenders, especially against the Germans.
- BTW, that's not a Bab archer near YakYak, it's a German. No matter, Pietr will kill it next turn.

Off we go.

IBT
Babs - See an MI leave the capital, probably on the way to us. That spear retreats
Germans - The wounded MI attacks JellyBank and dies (1-0)
Another rMace attacks across the river and dies (2-0). The rest do not attack!
RR: vMace --> Library (due in 6). Can change to a defender later if we are pressed but I want some science.
Hfax: vMace --> vPike (due in 6)

660 AD Turn 181 (1)
1st Army pillages the German gems and heads off to try and find their other iron.
2nd Army pillages 2 irrigated squares and moves onto the Babs Iron.
3rd Army pillages the dyes and moves next to Hattasus. We will begin the attack soon. The cats need cover to get across the river though, so it will have to be another turn or 2.
Most of the German SOD (4 Mace and a Pike) is healing on the volcano. Too much to hope for an eruption right now?
See a German Elite* Sword approaching JellyBank. Wonder what they used their leader for.
8 Cats in JB score 3 hits on a rMace and a rPike. Not much, and there is another Mace I could not touch under the Pike.
Pietr kills the German Archer (3-0)

IBT
German rMace attacks JB, kills a vSpear and promotes (3-1)
SSP: Cat --> Cat (due in 5)
HnS: vPike --> vPike (due in 8)
JB: Walls --> rPike (due in 15), but we should have SunTzu by then.

670 AD Turn 182 (2)
1st Army pillages, moving NW, finds Cologne but no Iron yet.
2nd Army pillages Bab Iron, check and yup, that was their only one. Good.
8 Cats in JB score 5 hits on approaching forces.
vHorse in Hattusha kills the Bab spear there. (4-1)
eHorse in Somewhere takes out LB (5-1)

IBT
German e*Sword attacks JB, dies (6-1). Other units do not attack, just manuever.
Hittite LB attacks Somewhere, dies (7-1)
GH: vMace --> vPike (due in 10)
WMoscow: Walls --> rPike (due in 30)
Americans are building the Great Library. In New York. We could only be so lucky.

680 AD Turn 183 (3)
Armies continue pillaging. Still do not see German Iron, but they still have it.
Cats bombing Hattusas all fail, will not attack this turn.
8 Cats in JB score 7 hits on the encroaching MI, top unit showing is a 3/5 Mace. CAII says odds of winning with our vMace is 68%, so I attack - we need to start whitting down this attack force. We are redlined but win (8-1)

IBT
Some Babs coming now, see 2 Maces, 2 spears, and a Bow
German rMace attacks JB, dies, our vSpear promotes (9-1)

690 AD Turn 184 (4)
Armies pillage, find Konigsberg but no iron.
Cats bombard Hattusas 4 hit, there are 5 units there (at least).
Take out a Hittite LB near there with a vMace (10-1)
Army attacks Hattusas, takes out the rPike showing. (11-1)
From Hattusha, vSword takes out Mace (12-1), and the vHorse takes out the Bow (13-1)
eHorse takes out other Bab Mace (14-1)

IBT
German vMace attacks JB and dies (15-1)
Hittite LB attacks Somewhere and dies (16-1)
2 American archers appear from New York, marking the first time we've seen them in a while.
MM: vMace --> vMace
IH: vMace --> vPike

700 AD Turn 185 (5)
Armies pillage
All the cats but one miss Hattusas, we will not attack.
Cats in Hattusha bombard down the 2Bab Maces there, our Sword and Horse takes them out (18-1)
Cats in JB bomb down to 1hp a pike and 2 Maces in a stack, we attack and kill the pike and a mace (20-1)

IBT
Barbs attack and promote our Mace up there. (21-1)
YarYar: vPike --> vPike (due in 15)
YakYak: vMace --> vMace (due in 5)
NHT: vPike -- VPike (due in 6)

710 AD Turn 186 (6)
Armies pillage. Find Berlin and Heidelburg, but no iron. Hills around Berlin though.
Cats in Hattusha redline the 2 Bab spears here, take them out with our Sword and Horse (23-1)
Cats attacking Hattasus knock points off 3 defenders. Make 2 attacks and kill 2 pikes (25-1)

IBT
More Bab Maces coming
Hittite LB attacks and kills our eSpear (25-2)
SSP: Cat --> Cat (due in 5)
RR: Lib --> vMace (due in 6)
Hfax: vPike -- vMace (due in 8)

720 AD Turn 187 (7)
Hattusha Cats bomb down the Bab Bow and Mace that is there, eHorse takes out the Bow (26-2)
Yank archer bombed down on the Mtn, vSword kills him (27-2)
Cats bomb Hattasus, there are only 2 vPikes left! I can't attack this turn though.

IBT
Bab Bow dies attacking a Barb Horse. Perfect.
Hittite LB dies attacking Somewhere (28-2)
Hittite MACE dies attacking Somewhere (29-2). Our Pike gets promoted. I thought they were all out of them.
Americans wish to talk. What the hey. They won't even give a tech for peace.
Hattusha: Cat --> Walls (due in 20)
MurMur: vPike --> vMace (due in 20)

730 AD Turn 188 (8)
Check CAII - yup. the Hittites still have no iron, that Mace just must have been leftovers.
Armies Pillage. Find Hamburg and I *think* that's their last iron in the fog.
Cats bomb Hattusas down to a vSpear. Mace kills 1, Army kills 2 more Spears, revealing the damaged vPike again. I think they are down to 2 units. (32-2)
Rest of the cats have terrible luck.
Kill a barb up N (33-2)

IBT
Babs request an audience. They will give us Engineering, Monarchy, and a worker. So sorry Hammy.
Hittite LB kills our ePike in Somewhere. Annoying. (33-3)
MM: vMace --> Settler (due in 3)
HnS: vPike --> vPike (due in 6)

740 AD Turn 189 (9)
Put the kids to bed.
Omsk is founded in the NorthEast.
Armies pillage. The German iron is near Hamburg. Course, we'll have to go back and redo the first now.
Cats bomb Hattusas, yellowing the 2 Pikes and revealing yet another spear.
vSword attacks vSpear, redlined but wins (34-3)
vMace attacks 2/4 Pike. Flawless. Victory. (35-3)
vMace attacks 2/4 Pike. Redlined. Wins. (36-3) And the long siege is over.

Sun Tzu's is ours. 2 slaves captured. 7 resisters there. Will keep the army outside. Move a Pike and a spear in.

Change the SavSam build from Rax to a Pike due in 1
German Pike that is trying to slip through the defenses bombed and killed by Sword (37-3)
vHorse kills the annoying Longbow (38-3)
eSword kills a Bab bow next to Hattusha (39-3) - and the hits just keep comin!

Ivan is named.
Pause to consider what to do with our 4th leader.

And the file
>>FILE<<.

 

[CommandoBob]

Those look like some fun turns. Pillaging with an Army, what a great thought.

Random Thoughts
If we up the science to 80% we learn Engineering in 1 turn, -12 gpt.

Barracks can be sold for 10 gold apiece.

Hattausas has to settle down before we can rush anything in it (I think).

The Temple of Artemis is in Berlin (and a temple in every city, which we could use).

New York is not now building the Great Library.

MGL
Heroic Epic - no, not now.
Forbidden Palace, not bad.
Pentagon - makes a stronger army and that is good.
4th Army - better fighting force.

I think I lean towards a 4th Army to help us expand. Not a must-do, however. Say 50% 4th Army and then 35% and 15% to Pentagon and FP.

More of a feel than a rational decision.

Any one else?

 

[Phaedo]

Just looking at the save now. I'll post thoughts in a bit.

 

[CivActuary]

Those look like some fun turns. Pillaging with an Army, what a great thought.

Random Thoughts
If we up the science to 80&#37; we learn Engineering in 1 turn, -12 gpt.

Barracks can be sold for 10 gold apiece.

Hattausas has to settle down before we can rush anything in it (I think).

The Temple of Artemis is in Berlin (and a temple in every city, which we could use).

New York is not now building the Great Library.

The pillaging is glorious fun. If you notice I have pretty much gutted the core of Babylon.

My thought is I might rather wait the extra turn to learn Engineering and get some gold - we could upgrade a unit or 2... I may not be correct in this though, but with our unit support being bad, I think quality units are good.

I would wait to sell barracks. The city might flip back until we get it under control.

You are correct, the Yanks must have switched. They'd never complete it there anyway.

MGL
Heroic Epic - no, not now.
Forbidden Palace, not bad.
Pentagon - makes a stronger army and that is good.
4th Army - better fighting force.

I think I lean towards a 4th Army to help us expand. Not a must-do, however. Say 50% 4th Army and then 35% and 15% to Pentagon and FP.

More of a feel than a rational decision.

Any one else?

I agree about the HE - we are doing ok without right now.

My only thought about Pentagon vs 4th army is that the Pentagon would give us immediate benefit in only 1 army - the other two are off pillaging. A 4th army would give more immediate oomph.

I vote for 4th army.

 

[Phaedo]

After looking at the save and checking with CAII, It seems to me that a 4th army or FP are the ways to go. The Pentagon is really nice and may be worth building (the HE we could probably do in YakYak if we want it too), but now is not the time.

The FP in Somewhere City looks to be the best location. Without the FP, we have

• 1 city @ 90%+ corruption
• 1 city @ 80%+
• 2c @ 70%+
• 2c @ 60%+
• 2c @ 50%+
• 3c @ 40%+
• 2c @ 30%+
• 3c @ 20%+
• 2c @ 10%+

If the FP goes in Somewhere:

• 1c @ 50%+
• 6c @ 40%+
• 4c @ 30%+
• 5c @ 20%+
• 3c @ 10%+

This effectively means we get 10 more beakers per turn, 8 more shields and 13 more gpt.

The pentagon actually will only make 1 army stronger because we would have to take our pillaging armies back to a city to load up and keeping our enemies off iron will help us more than an extra +3 attack.

The 4th army on the other hand will probably allow us to take out the Hittites quickly.

I think rushing the FP is the best call. The savings in corruption will help our research and our unit support, we will also be able to make units faster. I expect we will be able to get another GML as we are fighting so much. Let's get YakYak on the HE so we will have a better chance at a MGL. The 4th army has a strong argument is its favour though so I don't think it's a bad call. It's just that I feel that overall improvement will address more of our hurdles than just wiping out the Hittites (especially now that they don't have any iron). I think we can take out the Hittites (albeit a bit more slowly) without the army.

 

[Aabraxan]

My first reaction to the new MGL was to say "4th Army." But the more I've thought about the FP, the more I like the idea. I've been looking at CAII and if I'm using it (CAII) correctly, the ideal place for the FP (economically speaking) is Murmur. Please note that I have not looked at this from a defensibility perspective, but I have run through the cities with the FP and Murmur nets us more gold than anywhere else.

At our current slider settings:

W/O FP:
148 gold
+2 from taxmen
---------------
150 income
-37 science
-6 entertainment
-52 corruption
-3 maintenance
-21 unit costs
---------------
31 Net Gain

W/ FP in Murmur:
149 gold
+2 from taxmen
---------------
151 income
-46 science
-6 entertainment
-34 corruption
-3 maintenance
-21 unit costs
---------------
41 Net Gain

Putting it in H&S gets us 7 bpt, but costs us 2 gpt (39 net gain). Halifax gets us 7 bpt, but we get 38 net gain. Several different cities get 6 bpt, but Murmur gets it with the highest net gain. Y'all take a look at the numbers and see if there's a better location.

I still need to think about the Engineering vs gold savings thing, but I think I'm for saving the gold (potentially) for upgrading units.

And by the way, CA, excellent turnset! Nice going.

 

[Phaedo]

I just looked at CAII again and went through all the cities looking at the science and net numbers for the overall economy.

It seems to me that if we put the FP in IH, HnS or Somewhere, we get 39 gpt and 47bpt

If we put it in Murmur, 41 gpt and 46 bpt

If we put it in Savignon Samara we get 40 gpt and 47bpt.

I didn't even check SS. I think your call on Murmur is good. Although SS will get all that gold from the wines once they are hooked up so long-term it may be the better call. It is on the fringe of the empire and so succeptable to attack but the Yanks don't really pose much of a threat. I think the gpt difference is that SS itself doesn't make that much gold at the moment sot the reduced corruption doesn't show any benefit just now. Murmur, on the other hand, is relatively improved. The same issue is at play if you check Hattusas in CAII. Currently, its citizens are all in resistance. Once it has calmed and actually contributes something, the CAII assessment will change perhaps making it our best choice for the FP. This is all a bit out of my experience so critique away if anyone has any insight.

The thing about engineering is the movement benefit it gives. I would rather get it earlier than later. We can always turn down the slider for a turn or two after we get it to build some gold for upgrades.

 

[Norton II]

I was wrong about the FP preventing flips; a brief search turned up some examples of the FP city flipping. Sorry about that. Still, I think rushing the FP might be the best idea (just not in Hattusas); our military is strong, but our economy is weak.

 

[CommandoBob]

Excellent analysis by Phaedo and Aabraxan! Far better than my gut-feel call on the situation.

This MGL (Lenin) will build our Forbidden Palace.

But where? Murmur or Hattausas?

Hattausas may be the better city, but we'll have to wait for it to calm down before we build the FP. We can build the FP with Lenin (I just tried it and it can be done) even with resisters in the city. But in 740 AD, Hattausas has a flip chance between 2.2 to 5.1%, needing at least 16 and as many as 33 units to prevent the city from flipping back to the Hittites.

So we'll need to starve the city down and capture more Hittite cities to reduce the flip chances of Hattausas.

Which will take time.

So if Hattusas is the better city for the FP, we'll have to wait at least five or six turns before we could build the FP. This would mean five or six turns with no possibility of generating another MGL, but that doesn't seem like a bad trade considering what benefits our economy would get from the FP.

Or, we build a 4th Army and use the next MGL to build the FP in Hattausas.

Nah, that is too risky.

My thoughts are to keep Lenin someplace safe and well protected. Over the next few turns all non-resisters in Hattusas become specialists, in order to starve the city down. Once it gets small enough where only three or four units are needed to eliminate the flip chance, then move Lenin in and build the Forbidden Palace.

Unless Murmur is clearly the better long-term city for this small wonder, but I don't think that is what Phaedo or Aabraxan are suggesting.

 

[Aabraxan]

Excellent analysis by Phaedo and Aabraxan! Far better than my gut-feel call on the situation.

Thanks.

. . . .
So we'll need to starve the city down and capture more Hittite cities to reduce the flip chances of Hattausas.

Which will take time. . . . .

Unless Murmur is clearly the better long-term city for this small wonder, but I don't think that is what Phaedo or Aabraxan are suggesting.

For me, the problem is that I don't know if Hattusas or Murmur is the better choice long-term and we won't know until Hattusas comes out of resistance. CAII only shows me what the FP will do if built right now, not what it could be if Hattusas gets out of resistance and the FP is then built.

A question to cure my own ignorance. Is it possible to build the FP in Murmur, then sell it later and rebuild in Hattusas if that proves to be a better city?

I guess the answer to that will tell me if I think waiting 5 or 6 turns for resistance to end is a good trade or not. My gut says it's a good trade.

 

[CivActuary]

Sounds like we have a consensus for the turn and a half I have left.

- Increase SCI to get Engineering in 1
- Move the leader toward MurMur but don't build the FP yet (since we are still a bit unsure it seems as to the best city.

Edit: As a small wonder, I didn't think we could sell the FP and rebuild later.

What tech after Engineering? Invention?

 

[Aabraxan]

Are we going to go for Chivalry? We may have said that we were going to skip Chiv, but then again, I may have this game confused with Phaedo01. Military Tradition (and cossacks) sure does look like a long way off.

 

[Bucephalus]

lurker's comment:

Small Wonders can be rebuilt if destroyed, ie by abandonment.

 

[CommandoBob]

What tech after Engineering? Invention?

Monarchy, so we can get out of despotism.

 

[CivActuary]

740 AD Turn 189 (9) continued
Lenin moves to Murmur
Attack the other Bab Bow with the eHorse that's there. Win. (40-3)
Move the slider up to 80% SCI, Engineering in 1

IBT
Germans going for NewHorseTown now.
No attacks for once.
We learn Engineering, Begin Monarchy due in 8
IH: vPike --> vMace (due in 7)
SavSam: vPike --> vPike (due in 30)
Somewhere: Walls --> vPike (due in 30)

750 AD Turn 190 (10)
Hattasus has quelled 2 resistors. By shifing the specialists to 2 tax and 2 geek, Monarchy now in 7
4 cats bomb Zarquim, eMace attacks, kills spear (41-3)
Pietr attacks Zarquim as well, but he retreats. This town should fall next turn.
Move the citizens of NewHorse around to get the Pike in 1 not 2. We'll need it.
Cats Bomb and kill redlined German Mace (42-3)
Move the eSpear from Jelly to NHT to help.
Shift some troops up along the city line from SavSam on up.
Armies pillage - we have moved on to the German iron

And that does it for me.


Order of Battle:
1 Settler
23 Workers (4 native, 19 slave)
1 Archer (1e)
16 Spearmen (3r/13v/2e)
8 Swordsmen (6v/2e)
3 Sword Armies (4v/5e)
6 Horsemen (4v/2e)
7 Pikemen
35 Catapults
8 Mace

State of the Empire:
Mosaic Moscow (7) grows in 29, Settler in 2
Yakkity Yakutsk (6) grows in 6, vMace in 1
New Horse Town (6) no growth, vPike in 1
Iron Hill (7) no growth, vMace in 7
Halifax (4) grows in 4, vMace in 5
Silly St. Peteys (3) no growth, vPike in 5
Rowdy Rostov (7) no growth, vMace in 3
Gold Hill (2) grows in 1, vPike in 3
YarYar (3) no growth, vPike in 11
JellyBank (2), grows in 7, vPike in 7
Hot 'n Spicey (5) no growth, vPike in 5
West Moscow (3) grows in 3, vPike in 23
Omsk (1) grows in 19, Harbor in 59
Savignon Samara (4) grows in 4, vPike in 30
Murmur (4) grows in 4, vMace in 18
Hattusha (3) grows in 4, Walls in 18
Somewhere City (3) grows in 7, vPike in 30
Anywhere (2) grows in 7, Walls in 7
Hattusas (8) shrinking, vPike in 29

Total Builds:
Mace - 5 (YakYak, IH, Hfax, RR, and MurMur)
Pike - 10 (NHT, SSP, GH, YarYar, JB, HnS, West Moscow, SavSam, Hattusas and Somewhere)
Walls - 2 (Hattusha and Anywhere)
Settler - 1 (MM)
Harbor - 1 (Omsk)

We are in Despotism at 3.6.1
Monarchy is due in 7 turns, we are +6gpt with 27g in the bank.

Notes -
- Hattasus has a pretty big flip chance so be careful.
- For that reason I would wait to sell the old Rax. This thing could flip back.
- The Hittites have 4 cities left. The 'Pults have moved back to Somewhere to prepare to take Tarsus next, the 3rd Sword army should be healed up for that purpose next turn. The next couple turnsets should see us eliminate a civ. Good Hunting.
- The Babs Iron is all pillaged, and their core is pretty decimated. I'd keep it up.
- The first sword army is set to pillage the German iron around Hamburg, but I'm betting they have reconnected the other by now, so either we'll have to backtrack or send another army after the Hittites are dead.
- There are 4 cats and an undamaged Mace next to Zarquim up N. That city should be ours next turn.
- Yanks have been a nonfactor.
- Germans are headed for NewHorseTown. The town has enough defenders to hold, and we should be able to mount a counterattack soon.
- The Settler is down in Hattusha. I couldn't get him to the selected site due to not having enough defenders to cover him and Hattusha at the same time. Soon.
- Monarchy can be changed if we decided to - no beakers invested yet.
- The builds can be changed - looking back I seem to have an awful lot of defenders in the queue. Maybe change some to attackers if we are comfortable.

And the file
>>FILE<<.

 

[CivActuary]

And some pics

Our North

Our South

Babylon

Germany

Hittites

 

[Phaedo]

Just for the record, I don't see any reson why the next player can't take at least Tarsus and Ugar. Once we take those cities, I don't think the flip risk in Hattusas will be that great. Use the cats to bomb all but 1 road leading to Tarsus and then sit the army on that road. We will be able to kill any stray units with the cats and move them under our army to take Tarsus in the next turn or two. I played a couple of turns on my own from the pre discussion save. I don't want to give any spoiler info but I was able to take the Hittites down to 2 cities, finish off the Babs in the north and settle city next to the volcano. Once that city is there and the cats in the north start heading west after taking that Bab city, it feels like a whole different game. We have strong forces that can do some real damage if we want them to.

Oh yea, pillaging the iron is of course top priority but if the Germans get knights it would really hurt our defence. Let's try to make sure they can't get horses either from their own lands or from trading with someone.

 

[Norton II]

I'm up, right? If so, I'll play my set this weekend. With a little luck, I might be able to finish off the Hittites, depending on how well their cities are defended. I'd also like to get some workers down there to road those dyes. Looks like the Germans are the only ones with iron, so I'll take care of that, too. Unfortunately, we'll still have to deal with longbowmen.

 

[Aabraxan]

I think CBob may be right. We need to get out of Despotism. However, looking at the save, it's not time to switch yet. At least not from a gold perspective. Switching now would take us from +7 gpt to -20 gpt, at least partially due to an increase in our unit support costs (23 vs. 53 gpt). That said, I think getting out from under the despo penalty may allow us to grow fast enough that the switch will soon pay for itself.

I'd say head for Monarchy. I think the time for switching is not too far off.

And good luck, Norton II.