CCM1 (epic mod)

[tom2050]

An interesting tale. Pity the game crashed. I must remind you of one very important fact, quality has a quantity all its own. Or, 40 cavalry and a few cannons can stomp the snot out of 80 knights. More so if your guys start as veterans and the enemy has regulars.

What's even more impressive, was that Cavalry could be defeated almost as easily as Knights, Anc Cavlary, and War Elephants. The game favors offense heavily. And so my best defense was offense

Even with stacks of Musketman and Rifleman (6 and 7 defense); they stood no chance against enough Knights. I took down stacks of them, although my losses of fast units was plenty over time.

With Cavalry tough attack of 8, it is worth letting a unit die in the field to take these down first (because the chances on def just weren't in my favor with 3 being the highest).

------------------------------

I had approx 200 units... Spain had about 100-200 crappy units in my territory, which means they had many more than that. Let's say all other AI civ's had 300 units each. 30x300 = 9,000 + my 200 = 9,200 units. I recently upgraded units several turns before, so it must have just went over the limit the turn before. In order to survive, I would have needed a good 80-90 more units easy to feel safe against an attack. And probably another 150 to launch a successful attack. Culture in other civ's is so much higher than mine, I would need to steamroll, or cities would flip quickly.

Tom

 

[mythusmage]

What's even more impressive, was that Cavalry could be defeated almost as easily as Knights, Anc Cavlary, and War Elephants. The game favors offense heavily. And so my best defense was offense

Even with stacks of Musketman and Rifleman (6 and 7 defense); they stood no chance against enough Knights. I took down stacks of them, although my losses of fast units was plenty over time.

With Cavalry tough attack of 8, it is worth letting a unit die in the field to take these down first (because the chances on def just weren't in my favor with 3 being the highest).

Tom

What really made the difference was the cannon. Put ten of those in a stack along with about 20 riflemen and watch as that superstack of knights withers away. Then there was the time in a game of the MacSoft version of Civ3 (Mac natch) where one city of mine went through about 20 turns of siege defended by three ground units and about a dozen bombers. Air power for the win!

 

[Civinator]

Tom, I read your report with big interest. It´s a pitty that your game crashed. On the other side pangea with the biggest landmass is a killer setting for CCM.

There is one thing I can´t understand: If a unit is upgraded it is replaced by the better unit. So an existing number of units is replaced by the same number of units. How can there be a MUA (=Maximum Units Allowed) with this methode? What happens if you only upgrade some of these units and not all units at the same time? What units did you exactly upgrade to what units (spearmen to...)?

About the conquistadors: They have the same setting as in standard Civ 3. I agree, their movement is too fast for their time periode. I will change them to 1MV with all terrain as roads.

 

[vmxa]

Civinator, if you change the movement, what will you do to give it back something? In C3C it is a very weak unit and the movement is it bonus.

Tom, I would expect the limit was done to keep the game from grinding to a near halt. If it had double the limit, which is probably the next bump, it could bury even the best systems. In practical terms, I would have raised the limit and let those games behave however the behave.

Try to kill one unit and then try the upgrade. If a mass upgrade still crash, try a single one and see if that works.

I have seen that numbers can negate quality over and over. Yes you can attack 80 knights with 40 cavs, but you cannot kill the 80 knights in one turn. If the 80 attack first, you could suffer big losses.

In fact I have had superior defenders take big losses on defense, just from the sheer numbers. Lossing infantry armies to even swords and MDI. A town with 2 infantry armies and 30 other defenders, being attacked by 900 units can survive, but can also die.

Bombardment is great, but once you hit a large enough scale, it is too much work. Check out this one:

 

[tom2050]

I don't remember exactly where Conquistadors come in on the tech tree.. If they come a bit later, than it is fine, I was over a full ERA behind in tech... so chances are in a normal game, Conquistador's would not be as lethal as they were to me. And the numbers of them would not be as great. I wasn't expecting them (since I did not check Spain's special units), so it was what I deserved My annoyance was probably more at myself.

There is one thing I can´t understand: If a unit is upgraded it is replaced by the better unit. So an existing number of units is replaced by the same number of units. How can there be a MUA (=Maximum Units Allowed) with this methode? What happens if you only upgrade some of these units and not all units at the same time? What units did you exactly upgrade to what units (spearmen to...)?

Although the unit limit is 8192, the game can actually go over this limit without crashing... and the AI I think can continue building units without it crashing either... I remember reading somewhere that it was if the human player upgrades a unit (game does a unit number count or something), and it realizes it's over the limit and crashes.

I upgraded 1 Ancient Cavalry to my most powerful unit, the Knight

But on that same turn I built some other units, perhaps it was something else, like a hard drive crash about to happen. I will reload game and see what happens.

Bombardment is great, but once you hit a large enough scale, it is too much work. Check out this one:

And you are weak compared to them? Did you ever land on their continent?

Tom

 

[vmxa]

Yeah I was playing conquest only. That is why we have modern weapons. It was quite easy as I recall. I just loved the idea that with over 300 MA, I was weak. That just cracks me up. I am sure I had several dozens of MA armies.

The game has many places where it goes off the tracks, because the AI does not use the human interface. They did not put the same checks in the AI routines. This is why the AI can rush wonders with MGL's and you cannot.

So I am not surprised that it fails to catch the over the limit, till the human does something. My issue is not with the limit, but why the inelegant way they deal with it. Crashing seems lame. Could they not put out a msgs with the scoop and then let you close, with no saving or saving at my option?

I guess the most AI's I have used at Sid is 16 and that, along with the wars prevented limit issues. In 250x250 AW, where I do have 31 they are DG or lower, so I can kill off as many as they make by mid game.

If you want to post your save I will load it to see, if I get a crash.

 

[tom2050]

Here is the file:

Catherine_Ironheart_of_the_Italians_1796_AD.rar

Note the name of the save... for some reason, Conquests has a 'bug' or 'feature' that makes it so that even when you start a new game, it may keep the ruler name of the mod you played directly before it... In this case I was testing a game, then started CCM.. and now I am stuck as Catherine Ironheart of the Italians

Edit: seems to work so far when I have not done an upgrade... perhaps I can just disband old units as I make new ones. I have 7 Monks right now to use for an attack to ease the tension off of culture conversions.

Perhaps it wasn't unit limit reached, something else maybe? Don't know what though, I've built many units... I'm tempted to do an upgrade again to see if it causes crash... Maybe my computer was overheating? No crash yet... I can continue!

Tom

 

[tom2050]

SID - Italy

1799AD - Canada and Portugal declare war on France (nothing against France here, and it's Portugal that I'm still at war with!) Good, some civ's will be weakened, hopefully my neighbors!
1801AD - Maya declared war on the French... France probably won't make it out too well.
1803AD - Turkey declared war on the French.
1806AD - The Indians have been destroyed!
1807AD - I am almost ready to attack, I can afford about 30+ more units until I am forced to stop research for more income. I will launch a massive and quick strike against German front-line cities, quickly followed by my Monks for a massive culture boost. Then I will quickly regroup my healthy remaining forces to launch a secondary mass assault against one of their inner power cities with Monks close behind. Then prepare for the counter-assault.

Planned Strikes. Once Germany counterattacks, Israel should flood through to assist me... my primary goal is to strike hard, and then hold for my neighbor's assistance.




If I make a strong enough, hard enough, no prisoners assault (although I'm facing strong defense! 8 and 9!) I will succeed. I will also have to leave my border with Israel fairly lightly gaurded. All fast units will be brought to the eastern front. And all cities will continue to push out units for the remainder of the fight in order to survive the unit masses I will likely encounter. I think Germany has Allies, so it is now or never. Perhaps I will try to sign a pact with Israel first (would cost 53 gold/turn, but would be worth it for the back-up). War starts very soon then, next few turns. I will start preparing now.

War Plans:
All Knights being brought to the western front. I have 120 Knights, backed by 30+ Pikemen, 25 Praetorians and Medieval Infantry, a small contingent of Catapults, all Monks and Enslavers in territory to take down workers and keep watch, along with Legionaries for basic city guard. On average I can make 7 or 8 Knights per turn.

Tom

 

[vmxa]

I am not sure what the deal is, but you do have 8192 units in that save. I got a crash loading for missing pedicon ICON_BLDG_Angkor_Wat. Strange as I have it in my file? I had loaded Rise And Rule so maybe something got over written.

 

[vmxa]

Let me abend that, I did not go through the tree, but it does have a unit numbered 8191. So it could be that in the list of units some numbers are gone and it almost certainly is the case.

So actually you have had 8192 in the game, but probably not at this point in time. It may well be that having ever gotten to 8191 is all it takes to be a problem. IOW the game seems to number units as they are created and I have seen that numbers will be lost uring the game.

I do not know, if this is affected by upgrades or if they retain their original number. I only know that the list will have missing numbers and they seem to never be replaced.

Edit:
looked closer and no numbers are missing, so it has 0-8191. That counts workers/settler and all units. I did not look at all of the units, but a the lower numbers normally are missing as they die first. So it seems that once it gets to 8191, it will reuse numbers or resequence the units.

 

[Moosezilla]

I got a crash for my game similar to ones reported. Playing as Inca I captured the last Mayan city and refused peace as Persian alliance still active. Will try declaring war on Persia and making peace w/Maya. Don't think it will work as they have no way to pay maintaining costs.

 

[vmxa]

Civinator, I could not find any reason for my pedicon crash. I have the update2 applied, but it seems that Angkor is the same in the original and the update. I thought it was an issue with the syntax, but I doubt it.

It has AngkorWatlarge.pcx. I thought maybe it was missing _ between Angkor and Wat. First I thought it was needing a - after Wat and between large/small. None of that seemed to matter.

I can start a new game, just not load Tom's game.

 

[Civinator]

This crash is strange and at present I can´t explain it. I wanted to upload the next version of the CCM biq this weekend, but my current CCM testgame is so exciting, that I used all my time for gameplay and nothing for additional work with the biq.

260 x 240, continents, 70 % water, 31 civs and even in the industrial era only some seconds waiting time for the AI turns on a random map. Boy, o boy, o boy I like it. I think I don´t need a Civ 5.

 

[tom2050]

I'm pretty sure you are correct vxma, I have been able to upgrade units after that turn (several turns after that is). And some big wars have broke out, which will bring unit counts down.

Strange your game crashes... My game is with the latest BIQ, although no version number is on them.

My SID game has had an incredible turn-around! Quite great, I feel that I can... well, I'll save it for the update.

My waiting times, although not long, are usually 7-8 (Correction: probably more like 4-5 min) min's I believe (mid-range computer 3GB Ram dual core). Has to be the excessive unit counts and large calculations from battles.

Tom

 

[vmxa]

I wish I could load as I would like to see the times on my new PC. It is not a super one, but it does have a big boost over my old one. 1666mb memory and 4 GB with 512MB l2 cache should help it.

 

[tom2050]

SID game continued

1808AD - Sign MPP and RoP with Israel for 56 gold / turn and a few hundred gold. Troops are in position for assault . Some cities have been switched to Wealth so I don't go broke.
1809AD - The attack begins! I declare war on Germany with all units outside their borders (except for invisible units <- probably will take a diplo hit for the Missionaries since they do not have HN).
Attack starts on Erfurt. Greece declares war on me from MPP. Erfurt taken with 6 Vet Knights, lost only 1 of them. Only 2 Prussian Infantry guarding Erfurt (9.8.1). Culture bomb dropped in Erfurt.
Attack continues on Halle. Halle also has only 2 units guarding it. I lose 1 Knight destroying the 9.8.1 units. All else were able to retreat. Took 6 Knights to take the city. An immediate road is built by waiting worker force into Halle. A culture bomb is dropped and units fortify the city.

GAME BUG: I suddenly out of nowhere have 25101 gold! Before I had about 30 gold. Good for me, I think. OR it must have been the money I got from taking 2 cities??? I forgot to look when it happened. (EDIT: not a game bug, Germany is just rich in Gold)

Units set up to strike Konigsberg, Augsburg, and Bremen next turn.

1810AD - Germany just bombed me with early air units! Israel declares war on Germany (thank you! I already know I need some assistance here!)
Attack starts on Augsburg. Although my units are far inferior, because they are fast units, I lost only 1 Knight against Prussian Infantry ? It took 15 Knights to take out the Garrison and to take the city. Perhaps retreat should be slightly scaled back. It helps inferior units to be far too effective. Culture bomb dropped in Augsburg.
Attack starts on Bremen, 1 Knight takes down the Garrison guarded by a Pikeman. The other 18 Knights assault Bremen itself. Bremen falls with heaviest losses so far (4 Knights). It's tough because you can't retreat with 1 hitpoint-left units. I am getting rich quick in this war, I now have 58000 gold! Germany must have hordes of gold! Bremen is culture bombed.

Attack waits against Konigsberg... A Garrison behind enemy lines will make things difficult. 10 Knights are sent there to take it out. 10 Prussian Infantry advance towards Augsburg, my Knights must attack or else they will all lose if fortified in town. I am able to destroy 9 of them at the loss of 11 Knights . Last guy has 1 hitpoint left.
With all the money I have now, I go ahead and buy some tech's.
Engineering for 225 gold from France. (It was close to being researched anyways though)
Alchemy for 3375 gold from France.
Gunpowder for 3650 gold from France.
Trade for Saltpeter with Korea for 1750 gold.
Navigation and Theology for 6640 gold from France.
Renaissance and Clockworks for 8050 gold from France.
University for 6900 gold from France.
Jurisprudence and Physics for 14100 gold from France.
Ballistics for 7200 gold from France.



1810AD - Israel declares war on Greece, Babylon/Iraq declares war on Israel.
1811AD - Konigsberg falls! I lose 6 Knights taking the city and the Garrison. City is culture bombed.
Next targets are Hannover and Frankfurt.
Absolutism for 8100 gold from Russia.
Military Tradition for 7800 gold from Carthage. I now have Hussar's! Woo!
Egypt and Israel sign a MPP! Good! I declare war from MPP of Babylon/Iraq attacking Israel.
USA declares war on Israel.
1812AD - Culture bomb in Bremen. USA declares war on me for attacking the Germans. In 3 groups of 20-30 units each, these army groups enter within range of Hannover, Hamburg, and Frankfurt. I expect all 3 of these cities will fall, now that I have Hussar's. vxma was right, there is never a need to use artillery at this point except for in the very early stage of the game. Artillery is not strong enough to make a difference from normal fast units, and with defenders being far weaker than fast units, I leave them back to attack enemy attackers.
Carthage and France, Japan and France sign MPP.
1813AD - Germans building Intl Telephone Cor. Hopefully they finish it by the time I reach that city. This is the first time a war has actually been 10000% beneficial to me. Not only have I become rich, but my military might has exploded!
Attack on Frankfurt is successful with 3 Hussars killed. +15000 gold in my coffers!
Hannover falls with 5 units killed (Hussars and Knights). +20000 gold in my coffers!
Culture bomb in Frankfort.
The attack on Hamburg fails. :no drool; cottonmouth: My secondary healthy armies, which were successful against Hannover, and reinforcements from the homeland, arrive to attempt to take Hamburg next turn. An additional 19 units. Aztecs declare war on Israel!
1813AD - Germany has a tank (AV7) and Flamethrowers! Spain declares war on me because they had a MPP with Germany!
Hamburg falls! I lose 5 Hussars and Knights to take the city, but gain 21000 gold! . The city is culture bombed by my 2nd to last Monk. Israel has sent not one unit to assist me... they are probably busy with their own wars they are in... I am sending some recon units up north to see what their situation is.

Now I feel like I can win the game... if Germany didin't have such huge piles of gold to hand out, I would not be in such a terrific situation. Not only has this allowed to catch up in tech, but the tech's I have bought have allowed me to upgrade all my units with no mind to the cost of it.

I now am pumping out Cavalry, and will soon have infantry!

Tom

 

[Moosezilla]

Well I reloaded the turn and delayed capture of last Maya city. After no crash their wounded ships retreated into city and on I go. The crash must be because when a civ dies from lack of money!

 

[ThERat]

amazing report tom, I surely got to try this insanity on sid

 

[Civinator]

Another great report Tom.

Perhaps retreat should be slightly scaled back. It helps inferior units to be far too effective.

Yes, this factor will be reduced with the next version of the CCM biq.

 

[Civinator]

Well I reloaded the turn and delayed capture of last Maya city. After no crash their wounded ships retreated into city and on I go. The crash must be because when a civ dies from lack of money!

That´s an interesting thought.

In CCM there are only upkeeping costs for units, not for buildings. The settlers require support, too. In the next version of the CCM biq I will set the settlers to need no financial support. If this solves the problem you have deserved a virtuel medal Moosezilla.