Challenge #4 - The Mini-Me Challenge

[scherbchen]

oops my specs...

2.4 ghz
1 gig RAM
RADEON 9600 series grafics card with 256 MB

ancient motherboard

no problems with this one (would have stopped after the first run though if it had run badly)

 

[mice]

My specs

3 gHz
1 G RAM
radeon 6600 GEforce

I had no trouble with the large map to 1600 and in fact I will play more large maps now because I liked it. I guess most challenges wont go far past 1600 or so. With 5 AIs would they make 73 cities? I dont think so.

 

[Jet]

60. Was my ~5th attempt (the others were abbreviated. First game, I had razed zero cities by 1100 AD - having too much fun building!!!)

(The last one was razed in 1600, I assume that's legal.)

Spoiler :

Research (approximately):
* Poly first, AH hut, HBR hut, basic misc, Mono first, BW, Oracle CS, Math/Construction, Alpha/Lit, Theology first, Paper, Machinery, Chemistry, Steel, Banking.
Comments:
* Hind maybe not needed, but Jud probably worth it; OR was good during infrastructure phase. The temples were handy, though.
* I traded away techs MUCH less than in previous games. Only did 2 or 3 such trades through the whole game. All I really needed were military techs, and the longer the AI was kept from longbows, the better. Longbows suck, don't they?
* Paper was nice for the intel from peace treaties.
* After Steel, I shut down research for Maceman->Grenadier upgrades. But I'm not sure I should have waited for Steel. The Cannons I built did not seem that decisive, because once I had Grenadiers, they were taking cities, not seige units.
* I kept building Macemen after Chemistry. I guess if no tech after Chemistry mattered, then I might as well have done that, but I did wonder whether it was worth it, as opposed to building Grenadiers directly and giving them Combat III, then March. I wonder if Combat III Grenadiers would have been good enough.

Initial build:
* scout/worker/barracks/settler/settler/warrior/hind miss/worker/library/worker/granary. something like that.

In previous games I had a much longer infrastructure period, with temples and courthouses, and didn't start a military buildup until Macemen. This time I didn't build coutrhouses at all, and only built temples late, when I really needed them. I did attack with axemen+cats, and took Machinery late. IIRC my invasions didn't begin until around 500-300 BC. (Don't remember.) I waited for the border pop from the capital for copper, but that was fine, I had plenty of buildings to build first. Before copper I also built some keshiks, partly because I had gotten HBR from a hut, but I don't think they proved especially useful except as an early invasion deterrent.

Edit: I built 2 grocers and 1 market after shutting off the slider, but in this particular game I'm not sure that was worth it either: I think it was too close to the end of the game. If I had shut the slider off a little earlier, after Chemistry, then maybe they would have been worth building, I'm not sure.

After some preliminary games I decided the minimal wonders were Oracle and GL, so that's all I built. I couldn't justify any other wonder. I couldn't see having enough native happiness to run Police State - maybe with the culture slider, but that would delay Chemistry. The GL was good though; with settled great scientists I could keep teching even after shutting down the slider.

Cities were:
1. starting location. Cottages, wonders, NE. Left outer-ring forests.
2. northwest by 3 spice / 2 sugar / corn / gold / horse. Heroic Epic.
3. north on the lake, by fish / rice / banana (but not Iron, went for hills instead). Was very good in the late game with 1F3P workshops.

Militarily,
Not sure what to say. In stacks with Macemen+Axes, a decent number of the axes survived long enough that I could clear out an area fairly well and send them back for upgrade. One thing: I razed a couple capitals (leaving secondary cities as the new capital), but I suspect that was a bad idea (until the very end game). Fun, though. There go the Pyramids! There goes the Colossus!

The end game movie is pretty fun to watch!

Athlon 64 X2 dual core 4800+ 2.41 GHz, 2GB RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 7900 GTX, played fine.

 

[cabert]

i finished my game, and i razed 58 cities
With just a little better planning/worker management it would be 60, but I finished at 3:30 am this night and my wife greeted me rather coldly for this , so it was clearly not mm time.

Spoiler :

How it went :
got a settler from a hut, so i didn't build any
Used a rather usual for me tight placement for my second city, then remembered I can only have 3, and i had already 2, without knowing where the horses, copper, iron was :crazyeyes:
If i get to try this again, i won't settle the second city this fast!

When i saw that copper and horses were just outside my borders i went on wonder spree (needed the cultural expansion!).
It's been a long time since i played warlords level last time, I didn't remember how easy it was to get all wonders
Most huts gave me scouts, and i forgot there were no barbs , so after a good deal of exploring (!) i did post a few on fog busting.

When i finally was able to build units, i went for chariots, and went after Egypt. Why Egypt? because i saw a lonely worker.
And I missed him! (being rellocated 3 tiles away when declaring war always makes me ).
I rage, i razed Hatty's second city, waited while my units healed, and razed the same city again after a settler rebuilt it

After that, Russia had planted a city right next to mine = easy prey. I razed it, then a few others, and Cathy was dead.

I kept moscow as 3rd city. Good food + forest = rushing possibilities.

From this i gained a lot of workers that started building roads and roads.

I went after Togugawa too with keshiks. Toku dead.
Then I went after England. No more English. Then I went after Freddy. He had some useful techs, so I sued for peace and let him rebuild.

To avoid a lengthy post, let me say that i teched well (suprisingly so, with only 3 cities, and one totally focused on unit production) , since all this razing kept me with high amounts of money = 100% research. I won every race (Music, liberalism, economics), teched to steel and remembered i had no Iron . To overcome this problem i culture bombed my second city, and could finish the game with grenadiers (upgraded macemen! loads of those), cavalry (just a handful), cannons (a good deal).
I even built a galley to raze the island city

I killed almost every other civ : planned to go for conquest,with last city captured in 1600 , but got a bit lazy in unit building, so fell a bit short (HC and Freddy are alive in 1600).

Afterthoughts:
* If I could try again, i would space my second city a bit more. That was really a bad move.
* I also would go for multiple wars earlier = more units, those wonders where only needed because i had to culturally expand!
* Upgrading units is cool, but you need to be in your cultural borders = plan for it.
* early wars are easier, but killing the neighbours is not a good choice. Sueing for peace with freddy was cool. I razed more german cities than spanish ones, and earned 2 techs (sued for peace 2 times!).
* It's really doable (hey! i did!) to tech to steel, and cannons are great
* mounted units are good for early wars, but after that i used only 1 move units (including elephants).
* march promotions are good, though not game winning. A few marching grenadiers helped a lot speeding my late wars.
* roads everywhere!

 

[cabert]

60. Was my ~5th attempt (the others were abbreviated. First game, I had razed zero cities by 1100 AD - having too much fun building!!!)

(The last one was razed in 1600, I assume that's legal.)

The end game movie is pretty fun to watch!

what video?
did you win the game ?

(My specs

3 gHz Intel
1 G RAM
ATi card, 256 MB , can't remember which one,
game runs smoothly, though late in the night i'm not sure i would notice anything if it wasn't )

 

[Jet]

I just meant that if you Retire in 1600 you can watch the map with AI cities being founded and razed.

 

[Raiser]

Final weekend and Scherbchen stamps his authority on this challenge with a 73. Last chance for immortality confused: ) close of business Sunday.

And congrats to new entries Cabert with a 58 and Jet with a 60. Thanks for the insightful play-by-plays.

I finished at 3:30 am this night and my wife greeted me rather coldly for this.

Just explain that Mr GwenGwis couldn't do it without you and answer any further questions with a mumbled "Just... One... More... Turn."

The last one was razed in 1600, I assume that's legal?

Yes, indeed it is. You could take 75 cities on the last turn. That would be a stylish way to steal pole position!



So the penultimate leader board looks like this:

Scherbchen............73

PaganPaulWhisky...69

Jet........................60

Cabert..................58

PeteJ....................54

Mice......................50

Carl Corey.............41

Lateralis................36

Castiglione.............29

(Only the posted 1600AD saves are listed here. If I've missed anyone let me know.)

I just meant that if you Retire in 1600 you can watch the map with AI cities being founded and razed.

Having never retired (call me Mr Tenacious) I never realised that you got the post-game-coloured-map-play-reel-thingy without completing. Good to know.



My vote for Challenge #5 is some sort of total wealth variant. Any suggestions to inspire the eventual winner?



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[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

My vote for Challenge #5 is some sort of Total Wealth variant. Any suggestions to inspire the eventual winner?

I feel like I've said this before. Did someone suggest this as an option last time? Anyway ...

I think this sounds like a fun game. It opens up a lot of odd tradeoff opportunities for saving a few gold here or there. For example,

• Should we sacrifice production and food at all costs in order to get a few extra commerce (ex. work coast without a lighthouse)? Or will it be better to grow/build more effectively and then use that for greater commerce later?
• Should we pack in lots of cities close together in order to more effectively work cottages before our population grows?
• Should we try a pacifist game to save on unit costs or an aggressive military game to accumulate wealth from razing and pillaging?
• Should we research aggressively in order to get more advanced financial technologies, or turn research down near zero in order to save money?
• ...

It would be very interesting to see what sort of approach turns out to be the best.

 

[Raiser]

• Should we sacrifice production and food at all costs in order to get a few extra commerce (ex. work coast without a lighthouse)? Or will it be better to grow/build more effectively and then use that for greater commerce later?
• Should we pack in lots of cities close together in order to more effectively work cottages before our population grows?
• Should we try a pacifist game to save on unit costs or an aggressive military game to accumulate wealth from razing and pillaging?
• Should we research aggressively in order to get more advanced financial technologies, or turn research down near zero in order to save money?
• ...

It would be very interesting to see what sort of approach turns out to be the best.

Yeah, could be good if a set-up could be found that where both the peacenik and the pillager have a solid chance at a win.

The challenge set-up would definitely have to stifle Great Merchants. GM trade missions to large pop capitals on distant continents are by far the best way to rake in the gold. So the game would quickly converge on GP farming strats and become similar to 'Let's Get Cultural'. A small pangaea map or a lack of allies ought to limit that one strategy and allow for a more inventive approach.



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[scherbchen]

another idea (a pet peeve of mine if you will) is limiting the military.

like, say, 30 units max... at all times.

this would allow for different strategies. build one SOD and really, really be careful where you pick your fights. or be peaceful and culture-accumulate territory. or go science-nut and hoard a ton of gold to diplomatically create situations where your limited army can take a few key cities.

of course (afaik) one can not track down the size of a players army in retrospect... but this is all for fun and giggles anyhoo...

i am still convinced someone will break the 80 razed barrier, though.

go gwengis!

 

[carl corey]

A second try. I didn't beat scherbchen mighty 73, but I did improve a lot since my first one: 55 cities razed.

Here's the save, I'll post the "story" later, I'm way too exhausted now.

 

[Raiser]

A second try. I didn't beat scherbchen mighty 73, but I did improve a lot since my first one: 55 cities razed.

Here's the save, I'll post the "story" later, I'm way too exhausted now.

Good try Carl, a solid jump of 14.

Time is running out for us Euro-ite's. I'll give the guys on the other side of the pond a few more hours. Then I'll post the final scores tomorrow afternoon, but if I where Scherbchen I'd start working on ideas for #5.




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[cabert]

it was really a good challenge anyway. I didn't think so, but there are a few very interesting notions involved :
- first, the settings were good: there is in the stat screen a direct way to know where you stand (better than my "army of vetrans" were you would need to go through the units and count :crazyeyes, and clearly oriented for war (you won't raze a city with a tech) = clear objective. The requirement of staying at 3 city max was somewhat artificial, but made it more fun.
- building an economy for 3 cities only with loads of troops isn't straightforward (even on a low level);
- razing a good number of cities really funds your economy, doesn't it?
- there was a good replayability (no time to do so ) since there were clearly different options;
- as a "domination kind of guy", i really was how you could manage conquest;
- absence of barbarians made it clear that the AIs at this low level are suckers

 

[pigswill]

Instead of total gold you could go for gpt or even net gpt (after expenses).

 

[carl corey]

By the way, I finished the game yesterday for a conquest win. There were 73 cities on the mainland and 3 on islands. I had a coastal city (captured) this time, but I forgot I had only galleys. So I had to wait in the end to get Astronomy to build a couple of galleons, then I had to take them round the world, and it took me forever to do that. The mainland was cleared in around 1700-1750, I don't remember exactly. Still no time for a more detailed report, but it will be written one of these days.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Next challenge: the problem with counting gpt is that the best way to do it is through shrines. It will turn into "Lust for Gold" all over again. Total gold at year X means you can choose to go the religion way to bring income through shrines, or go the aggressive way and bring income through wars. I could have had huge amounts of gold at the end of my last game if in the end I wouldn't have bought my troops from the third city. (the other two produced troops in 1-2 turns, no need to buy)

We could use Montezuma for this. He's both Spiritual + Mysticism for a religious start, and Agressive for a military strat. It would be nice to have several strategies possible. Difficulty level I think either Prince or Noble if there are a lot of people for whom Prince is too much. Warlord would probably be too easy. (no real competition to found religions, no real problems in combat, etc)

As for Great Merchants, we could prohibit the idea of using them for trade missions and be done with it. It's too dependent on luck, as some could pop only GMs even at 60-70% chances while someone else could pop a Great Artist with only the National Epic in place. It's not like in battle where luck evens out due to the huge number of individual fights. Here all you need is a few lucky rolls and you'll beat any strategy.

 

[Lynxx]

Or perhaps something as simple as a game of survival. Who can survive the longest against a diety ai with always war turned on... Ofcourse we would have to place the ai a safe distance away so that we got time to build some archers. Perhaps on a tiny map(so that I can play it) with only one or two ai's that will hunt us down. The creator should check the worldbuilder just to make sure we got time to build some troops before the ai gets to us.

It would be a short challange for sure, and if the creator think it is to hard perhaps we should lower the difficulty to immortal.

Edit: On second thought. A standard map against only one diety ai should do it. Will get us time to build up before the ai gets to us.

 

[pigswill]

Having done gold and culture and city-razing could possibly go for research (highest beakers/turn or maybe first to discover 3 techs from different branches of tech tree).

 

[cabert]

As for Great Merchants, we could prohibit the idea of using them for trade missions and be done with it. It's too dependent on luck, as some could pop only GMs even at 60-70% chances while someone else could pop a Great Artist with only the National Epic in place. It's not like in battle where luck evens out due to the huge number of individual fights. Here all you need is a few lucky rolls and you'll beat any strategy.

no GM is a bad idea! And settling them give even better money (not in the last turns of course) than the trade mission.
I think there is a good replay value on this total gold challenge, because you'll have to balance :
- teching/amassing money
- waring to earn pillage money/ peace to send missionaries and build money

I can see at least 5 different options, and i'm not able to tell which one is better! IMHO that's a very good challenge to see the efficiency of a caste system SE with pyramids (hint hint)

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

So where were the threee cities located on the successful attempts?

I took a couple swings at this (I didn't have the right ideas, and was work throttled as well - it didn't help that I only just learned that copper can be used to build Macemen); it appeared to me that the right opening approach was to settle in place (one wrong idea was settling on the elephants), then make an early capture of Moscow. After that, just trim everybody back to their capitals in turn....

 

[carl corey]

Yeah, I also went for Iron in my first game thinking it is needed for Macemen. Oops.

In my second game my three cities were: settled in place; east of the capital, 1SE of the lower wine tile if I remember correctly, to get as many floodplains as possible; 3rd city I took Berlin. Built the Colossus there so 2 crabs, 1 sheep, a lake, two 3 hammers forrests made a pretty good city.

Never got iron in my second game, but I never needed it. First wars with maces, then grenadiers+cats, then grenadiers+cavalry+cats.