Charlemagne IMM Isolation Challenge

[Henrik75]

When you're replaying the map a little too quickly and your settler moves out before you can stop him.

I swear I'm a deity player guys

 

[Henrik75]

@CarpoolKaraoke

Spoiler :

Yes! I was just thinking about that now, GLH into monarchy into great library seems very possible, sailing and masonry are both required to hook up the marble for great library anyway. I'm going to try as well. You think it's better to slow build work boat at size 1 instead of worker then mine the pig and build a workboat with mined pig while growing and also having the river commerce? Lazy to math but I'm not sure which is better.

Even better, the coastal city settled ontop of marble can get immediate trade routes from GLH helping it pay for itself

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

@CarpoolKaraoke

Spoiler :

Yes! I was just thinking about that now, GLH into monarchy into great library seems very possible, sailing and masonry are both required to hook up the marble for great library anyway. I'm going to try as well. You think it's better to slow build work boat at size 1 instead of worker then mine the pig and build a workboat with mined pig while growing and also having the river commerce? Lazy to math but I'm not sure which is better.

Even better, the coastal city settled ontop of marble can get immediate trade routes from GLH helping it pay for itself

Spoiler :

Generally, yes, because building mines take time, although the fishing boat spot is probably the worst possible one in this scenario.

Basically, you're trading worker turns for commerce and a bit of food. If the worker has nothing "good" to do (i.e. OCC/no REX/waiting for Sailing+ BW/ I think the workboat first makes sense.

If Financial, doubly worth. If Fish or 1 ocean tile closer, also worth.

Caveat: maybe Settler first delayed worker so long that techs arrive in time. Hadn't thought about that. Ordering tech as Fishing/Mining/BronzeWorking/Sailing might come in time and the worker can chop into something useful and safely funnel into lighthouse. ..but usually, there's nothing for the worker to do!


The math, to size 2:

Worker first:

15 turn worker --> 15 commerce
4 turns growth during move + mine = 8 growth, 4 hammers, 4 commerce
7 more turns growth == 28 hammers, 7 commerce --> workboat in place

2 hammers, 26 commerce, 7 worker turns

Workboat first:

8 turn workboat --> 0 commerce
12 turn worker --> 22 commerce
6 turns growth --> 12 commerce ,

2 food, 34 commerce, 2 worker turns

 

[Hamilton321]

Spoiler :

This game is not going very well for me, but I thought I might as well post a 1000AD update so you can sort of see how my caste merchant play has gone. IT backfired rather miserably as I am left on five cities without even finishing fogbusting my starting island. I am starting to meet other people and did a trade mission, hence all the gold. Now I think the only play is to pump out units and settlers to fogbust the island and grow the cities finally.

 

[drewisfat]

@BornInCantaloup Here's my settler first start. I think I needed to add barb techs unless it's just IMM timing, but I stayed well defended from a barb rush that never came.

Spoiler T1-61 :

Settled capital in the very corner of the map. I don't really care about bureau capitals especially since I know it's isolation. True, that means the game will go late enough for it to matter, but it also means I'm probably rushing astro at the cost of CS, and I'm going to get happy capped hard.
This only saves 1 real turn on the first settler getting out, but it will save several turns on the workboat and opening hammers really are key if going GLh to simultaneously win the wonder race and survive barbs without crippling expansion.
Now I expect there'll be some clamor about Prague's location, but it has a lot going for it.
- +1
- Instant TRs with fishing (also true if you SIP'd tho)
- +1 A city 3 tiles away puts the initial overall empire maintenance at -2 instead of -3 if it's 4+ tiles
- Settler arrives there 1 turn faster
- WB gets there 2 turns faster
- Shares more tiles with capital, especially minmaxing the mine for IMP-settler and GLh
- Pigs tile is +1 pre-worker
- Defensible position against the first barb wave (admittedly only relevant on DEI)
- Allows a more reasonable pre-IW 4th city, which we need to fully benefit from the extra TRs.
- And most importantly of all, doesn't lose the game to panthers

Capital pumps out 2 WBs using the mine while Prague builds a worker first with pigs, then with clams. Then capital switches to growth mode while preparing a lighthouse > GLh whip. Prague takes care of the empire building.

Got GLh on t57, and by t61 I have 4 cities, 2 workers ready to build a cottage next turn and one about to come out. Edge cities each have an archer/warrior in them. Nuremberg certainly looks like a no-food-no-city spot, but the border will pop by the time I could improve the rice anyways. Need the 4th city so each city has the full 3 TRs and this spot maximizes cottages both now and late game.

 

[Henrik75]

Not gonna lie, I have replayed the map like 20 times (mainly first 75 turns) and random nonsense triggering me each time, think I might just stick to original oracle attempt

Spoiler :

Want to see some ridiculous wonder dates? these imm dates beat 90% of deity game dates I'm pretty sure.

Anyway for your entertainment I restarted a lot of times due to:
- Archer killing woodsman 2 warrior fortified in jungle hill at 4%
- Another archer killing 2 warriors in forest and still being healthy and promoting twice
- Jungle growing in 2nd city making it unhealthy at size 3 instead of size 4
- Great lighthouse going at 1600, 1640, and 1720bc
- Panther killing my scout with woodsman 1 promotion, bs
- Panther killing a warrior
- Panther sniping my settler when i went settler first
- Panther attacking me IRL (cat meowing too loud in the background)
- me making stupid mistakes tilting myself
- best attempt, but great library was built at 200bc in a far away land (i got it at 200ad on first attempt) bruh -_-
- 2 barb axes fking me up and one killing my forested axe
- barb spears bullying me before i get iron working
- more jungle growing giving unhealthiness
- forgetting to revolt at correct time or change production queues because im tilted with the above

ya. it's been a disaster the last 2 days. I think time to take a vacation on aonther map.

 

[soundjata]

I am a big S

 

[drewisfat]

@BornInCantaloup the hill tiles can be gazed t0, if anything map knowledge would deter the plan because of dead clams. But long-term there's another argument to be made for my layout, grabbing 2 interior grassland tiles that otherwise you couldn't with coastal cities.
Aachen needs a lighthouse, while Vienna doesn't want one so I never considered putting GLh anywhere else.
I'll grant if you SIP settler first might not be superior, due to the awkward layout. The rightward clams are 1 tile too far right, the NW clams are 1 tile too far left for an efficient early 2nd city.
But yeah settling the hills felt natural, wasn't trying to pull a fast one. Getting a good GLh time, not dying to barbs and still expanding is a lot to ask for without IND and with a slow workboat start. Would only consider GLh on deity with those hill settles, which also give added barb defense.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Following from my basic strategy at T58 (1680 BC),

Spoiler :

Fishing, mining, bronze working. I think the first 35 turns should be the same for everyone.

Then I went polytheism, priesthood, writing. Oracle for code of laws. With no happiness resources, no creative, and no charismatic, I wanted a religion. Code of laws also enabled caste system, which I like better than slavery in weak isolation starts.

this is my T172 (1120 AD):

Spoiler :

No map spoilers! One of my worst astronomy dates. More surprising is nobody met us yet.

Two thousand five hundred years of written history.
BC-1680 code of laws
BC-1360 the wheel
BC-1000 pottery (settled great scientist)
BC-0375 agriculture
AD-0350 alphabet
AD-0425 sailing
AD-0660 compass
AD-0840 metal casting
AD-1050 machinery
AD-1100 mathematics (lightbulbed optics)
AD-1120 masonry

Future plans: calendar, astronomy, monotheism. Double-switch into slavery and organised religion.

If the game lasts very late: settle a city 2N of the horse. Slow-build the national park in 50 turns.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

The game is not close to finished.

Techs: civil service, meditation, philosophy, paper, education, economics, nationalism, constitution, corporations.

Spoiler :

Techs that I did --not-- get. Oh dear.

T178 (1120AD) to T258 (1740AD). Contains map information.

Spoiler :

Later I learn that they're located next to the Ottomans. Here, have some good luck ponies.

Even weaker than myself. Somehow not a vassal to anyone. Possesses The Great Lighthouse. Tried to breakout before but it didn't work out. Maybe it's because they had no iron or copper.

High upkeep civics are expensive. I am also going to switch to vassalage later.

The Ottomans never fought any wars yet. All land and cities just from peaceful expansion. Woe to those on the receiving end!

I just want Uruk for TGL and for a general landing spot towards the mainland. I need Sumeria to keep the other cities to fight off French culture.

In 1410AD, Carthage released their cities and formed a colony. Since the game is no tech trading, the colony did not tech at the same rate as the master. Carthage also declared war on Greece last turn. The war was fought with rifles so getting involved was dangerous but I had to do something.

Carthage just got assembly line so I needed an exit strategy before their power rating spikes . The AI asks for cities by default but can also accept gold.

The rathaus allowed me to take any unhabited land that I wanted but that's all gone. If, at any moment, the Ottomans decide to conquer the world, nobody can stop them. Yes, I spread the Confucian belief to (former) Spain earlier. My original intention was to ask Spain to adopt Confucianism so that I can have a friendly ally after I take out Carthage. It was unfortunate that Carthage decided to attack Greece well before the plan was ready.

Guns, Germs, and Steel. It would be helpful if someone built the United Nations so I can enter those civics.

For the observent: I stole aesthetics from my vassal. Pathetic I know.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

The turn before the tech leader declared war on me and the game was lost shortly after. One picture.

Spoiler :

The key problem was that the Ottomans were "pleased" with everyone the whole time. Every time I attack a player, I got "-1 you declared war on a friend" which accumulated. No tech trading meant I had limited diplomatic options.

Discussion for @konata_LS
I believe I lost because my micromanagement was not good enough. I still believe my overall strategy was sound.

Spoiler :

- Oracle or Great Lighthouse.
- Three Great Scientists. The 2nd for optics, the 3rd and 4th for astronomy. The 1st is probably not a GS. Settle it as a super specialist.
- After astronomy, go down the military-science path and take land. More units and more cities is better than infrastructure. Rathaus + TGL was doing ridiculous work.
- My eventual plan was ICBMs, galleons, and rifles. I could have done it if I wasn't attacked. The Ottomans had mechanised infantry but otherwise the tech rate wasn't impressive.

I don't think religious or cultural were options. If we committed to building the AP, then our normal development would have been delayed even more, and then our optics date will be slower than a normal astronomy date, by which point everyone is already in free religion. With cultural, you have to get astronomy and then wait for religions to spread, which is too late. NTT makes diplomatic difficult, even the backdoor (farmville) variety.

 

[konata_LS]

The turn before the tech leader declared war on me and the game was lost shortly after. One picture.

Spoiler :

The key problem was that the Ottomans were "pleased" with everyone the whole time. Every time I attack a player, I got "-1 you declared war on a friend" which accumulated. No tech trading meant I had limited diplomatic options.

View attachment 635010

Discussion for @konata_LS
I believe I lost because my micromanagement was not good enough. I still believe my overall strategy was sound.

Spoiler :

- Oracle or Great Lighthouse.
- Three Great Scientists. The 2nd for optics, the 3rd and 4th for astronomy. The 1st is probably not a GS. Settle it as a super specialist.
- After astronomy, go down the military-science path and take land. More units and more cities is better than infrastructure. Rathaus + TGL was doing ridiculous work.
- My eventual plan was ICBMs, galleons, and rifles. I could have done it if I wasn't attacked. The Ottomans had mechanised infantry but otherwise the tech rate wasn't impressive.

I don't think religious or cultural were options. If we committed to building the AP, then our normal development would have been delayed even more, and then our optics date will be slower than a normal astronomy date, by which point everyone is already in free religion. With cultural, you have to get astronomy and then wait for religions to spread, which is too late. NTT makes diplomatic difficult, even the backdoor (farmville) variety.

Well played.
Sorry about that unlucky DoW. You've got impressive progress for such a tough start and against many strong AI opponents. The lonely island of HRE is really poor. If I played this map on Monarch, I would click on Retire around T30 or just reroll the map from T0.

Spoiler :

It's hard to tell if micromanagement is good or not without a save. Plus I'm terrible at managing my workers and cities so I'm not competent enough to judge others' micromanagement .
I agree with your strategic choices: try an early wonder, generating some GPP, conquer land after Astro, aiming at military or UN victory. You're also right about the diplo situation with these AIs: many of them have similar peace weight, and more than half of them love HR. Even under different state religions, most of them are pleased with each other. The accumulated -1 penalty from "declare war on our friend" may lead to a bad surprise.

Another downside of these AIs is the peaceful vassal. AIs who loves HR often go for early Monarchy, which leads to early Feudalism --> vassal state unlocked. In an off-line game that I lost on Emperor, far away 6 city Capac peace vassal to 15 city Gilgamesh, Capac finished Pentagon, Giggle got Infantry while I still used Muskets and cannons. Rage-quit.

In terms of the early wonders, I think Oracle, GLH, and GLib are all potential choice. However, each of them has some risk:
1) it's possible to lose oracle, as the AIs who like HR tend to tech PH-Monarchy and build early oracle. Especially Louis and Capac are IND.
2) GLH is tempting but Hannibal has a coastal start with high . GLH would be gone very fast if Hannibal decides to build it.
3) GLib is not secure neither. Both Sully and Louis have high culture flavour. Louis has both cheap library and cheap wonders. "Louis for GLib" is similar to "Roosevelt for GLH".
Grabbing one of these wonders would be of great help for the empire. OTOH, with a weak leader like Charlie, I don't think we can build all of three wonders. We need to carefully think about our choice and execute it quickly.

The jungle in Charlie's island is terrible: unlike forests, the jungle is somewhat a "black hole" which swallows countless worker turns to clean it without any output. Not to mention the expensive IW required for cutting jungle. A side effect from these resourceless jungle tiles is: after Astronomy, the human player has almost no resource to offer in the trade with AIs.

Thanks for sharing your write-up and opinions. Hope you've learnt or practised something from this map.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

@BornInCantaloup Aahh! You're right! Why didn't I think of espionage? I want to scream. I want to cry.

Spoiler :

The worst part is I just did that in NC304. I learnt the correct magic spell and then forgot I had it.

I loaded the game from when I attacked Sumeria. Turn up the espionage slider. Move the palace to Uruk. Raze the other cities. Plant a new city. Spread Confucianism. Stack 25 spies. Gift to the French. Pick their techs clean. Domination victory became trivial by that point. I had cities and land, I just needed to catch up.

@konata_LS Monatch difficult doesn't change too much. My approach would be similar.

Spoiler :

I still wouldn't go down the aesthetics path. I would still beeline astronomy. I would still go for Oracle and Confucianism.

Since the Oracle date will be later, I would go fishing, mining, bronze working, TW, pottery, polytheism, priesthood, writing.

My first victim will still be hit by knights and trebuchets. My second victim will still be hit by cannons and granadiers.

While I am hitting my second victim, I will research civil service, philosophy, nationalism. My third victim will be the Ottomans. I will bulk up my army with drafted muskets because Iwill need many warm bodies to clear out the units softened by cannons.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

You had the best Astro date provided in this thread, Sylvanllewelyn.
Granted, other people didn't prioritize it (and I don't understand why - their fault). I gather you came short on science. Still, I would think your trial is the best of them all.
NTT...Is like an extra difficulty level. If we take so long to take off, then maybe investing into an espionnage economy (mostly passive) can do a lot of good.

I'm not sure about your gpp plan but I kinda trust you on that matter, too. I didn't play that far.

I am not so sure beeline to Astronomy is the right play - baseline GNP is still necessary to get to the desired military tech to stay competitive in the game.

I also have second thoughts on having the first great person be a merchant - w/o philosophical traits, and delays to writing, there is huge pressure on generating future GPP. I think the Civil Service + Academy route is much more enticing with no-tech trading.

Spoiler Astro dates :

GLH to Astro beeline w/ Currency bulb - federation of small city states:
Astronomy date: T166 - 1060 AD.
Beakers at breakeven, w/ contact: ~140

Astronomy via Liberalism:
Astronomy date: T186 - 1260 AD
Beakers at breakeven w/o contact: ~190
Beakers at breakeven, w/ contact: ~280

Tech difference to cover between 166 and 186, not counting Liberalism.

++ 8,269 beakers: Meditation, Priesthood, Monarchy, Aesthetics, COL, Civil Service, Paper, Education, Philosophy.
- - 650 beakers: Currency

Required BPT, assuming 1.2x multiplier: 310.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

With TGL, I find it difficult to imagine that civil service or currency gives a bigger commerce boost than astronomy, but I suppose it's possible. I'm not sure if I understand the distinction between "baseline GNP" and "trade routes GNP". By the time someone enters mercantilism, someone else enters free market. Trade routes only definitely disappear when you attack someone but by then we've reached our goal - - an army and navy to break out.

You could be pedantic and say we should start with the final turn and then think backwards. We don't because it's intractable. We make simplifying assumptions. Interestingly, someone mentioned that religion might be an example: later and/or weaker astronomy than TGL, but the post-astronomy religious benefits may be strong enough to catch up.

Back to astronomy beeline. Even with tech trading, monarchy is a common "diversion" that results in getting astronomy sooner. For NTT isolation, currency and civil service may result in this category. Don't know. Never tried.

Oracle and TGL approaches differ in how to treat great persons.

With TGL, we get pottery early, so we get writing early, so we build library early, so we can "race" to get a great scientist within 50 turns after TGL. I like gene pool purity too.

With the Oracle, depending on what you do with it, we might not even be able to get simple worker techs without settling the first great person! That's why I don't go Oracle or early wonders unless the situation is desperate (like here). In that case, GM, GS, GP all give gold/science so there's no reason to waste GPP points or to delay the first GP.

 

[drewisfat]

@BornInCantaloup I had been assuming that unmodded the individual trade routes were just visually rounded but the total would include the fractions. I thought BAT was unaltered gameplay. I've been cheating this whole time?
Is there a way to turn it off? Is there anything else like this?

 

[drewisfat]

I didn't realize BAT changed something as tangible as potential commerce income. On the one hand, it totally seems like a game oversight not to fix that rounding in BTS. But like it also makes arguably the most OP wonder even better, which seems like cheaty mccheatcheat. I assumed it must have been one of the many BUG options that I just happened to have checked off for BAT and not BUFFY. When I said "use precise trade routes" I was just improvising what that hypothetical setting would be called.

 

[CarpoolKaraoke]

CPK means that if Astronomy is the sole source of commerce, then getting Astro earlier does not compare well with developping cities.
Size 4 cities with Astronomy will indeed perform worse than size 16 cities without. Well, sure... This is why we want Monarchy/CoL
In the same train of thought, powering through CS, Philo, Paper, Edu and Lib (wow, that's all very expensive) before Machinery, Optics, Maths, Alpha, Calendar is a considerable delay towards trades for corn, wheat, gold, gems, silver and the like. All those resource trades (esp health) are crucial to ease up city growth and develop baseline GNP.

Finally, a big part of the appeal of the Astro bulb is that it still leaves Liberalism as a possible play post Astro. It's not an either/or situation if we can have both. Maybe we can't have both on this map, I don't know.
In my mind, not burning a GP on an early bulb and not burning Lib on Astro are very similar arguments.

Math + COL before Astro means CS is right on the door - there was some rough estimates from this other NTT thread about whether or not the earlier beakers from CS are worth it: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/imm-genghis-khan-isolation-game.665040/post-16155038

I find it difficult most of the time under NTT to acquire Astro and then make it in time to Liberalism for something else - grabbing Liberalism is in part under intention of AI denial.

I didn't realize BAT changed something as tangible as potential commerce income. On the one hand, it totally seems like a game oversight not to fix that rounding in BTS. But like it also makes arguably the most OP wonder even better, which seems like cheaty mccheatcheat. I assumed it must have been one of the many BUG options that I just happened to have checked off for BAT and not BUFFY. When I said "use precise trade routes" I was just improvising what that hypothetical setting would be called.

RIP I committed to the Currency bulb strategy on blind faith - I don't have BAT. I think @BornInCantaloup is right in that Metal Casting bulb is probably the best bet there. Currently played a few turns where the wonder I'm rushing is......the Academy. I think it looks good so far. Will report later.

 

[Gwaja]

I have not rolled a map as uniquely challenging as this map on Immortal, for a very long time. Very good for practice and honing our game skills.

As soon as I have some time to actually sit down and play again (return from a long vacation = lots of catching up to do), I want to play this to the end.

Many thanks to @konata_LS for this map!

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

^ I will look into that, it's very interesting, CPK. Perhaps we didn't say it much but you're obviously very skilled. Coming from multiplayer, right ? That's cool.
I'm pretty much an Iso noob (like 5 maps). If you add NTT on top, well, you get it... I don't speak from authority. <- This is about the CS talk. I don't see it but I'm not confident either.

CS or not in NTT iso; I also defer this to the experts.

I find it difficult most of the time under NTT to acquire Astro and then make it in time to Liberalism for something else - grabbing Liberalism is in part under intention of AI denial.

But isn't liberalism denial less important in NTT?

I have not rolled a map as uniquely challenging as this map on Immortal, for a very long time. Very good for practice and honing our game skills.

Oh yes it is uniquely challenging.

Spoiler :

We quickly find out that there's no copper. I was disappointed because my initial plan was to Oracle for metal casting and then lean on the Colossus.

Later on you will find out that there's no uranium. I was fortunate to have one source because I made a risky, all-out attack on someone beforehand. I'm not sure how we can win without some nuclear support.