Check Your Privilege

[Cheezy the Wiz]

The context is going to vary depending on who said it under what circumstances. It's not always about race.

And I'm telling you the context. ffs.

If we're going to split hairs, degenerate strictly refers to something that has become other than its kind: rather than less-evolved beings, who were never 'proper' people to begin with, it better fits someone who has, through their actions, lost the right to be considered human. It works best with a natural assumption that all people are born equal, but do not stay that way.

I'm doing the opposite of splitting hairs. This isn't a pedantic rant this is pretty well-established stuff. You're the ones missing the forest for the trees, with technical dictionary definitions and "well I dunno it depends" weaseling around the issue.

Nazis used the word to refer to non-Ayrans. White Europeans used it to refer to non-Europeans. "The degenerate races." "Degenerate culture." "Degenerate art." This isn't debatable, it happened. Stop trying to excuse racism.

A thug ("a violent person, especially a criminal.") is by definition a degenerate ("Having lost the physical, mental, or moral qualities considered normal and desirable; showing evidence of decline.") person. Don't see how that's supposed to be racist just because that thug happens to be black; seems to be a nonsensical argument to me.

Yes everyone knows that. And negro is simply the Spanish word for the color black. You gonna argue that's not racist either?

 

[Ryika]

Yes everyone knows that. And negro is simply the Spanish word for the color black. You gonna argue that's not racist either?

Is "degenerate thug" a combination that is only used against black people? A quick google search shows that it's not. Blacks are certainly over-represented when searching for these words (surely partly amplified because blacks revel in thug lifestyle like most other demographics don't), but it's used to describe all sorts of people overall.

 

[Flying Pig]

I was willing to back you on the racism charge, but:

Blacks revel in thug lifestyle like most other demographics don't

Oh dear. That sounds like something Oliver Letwin - a minister in the British Cabinet, incidentally - would say.

“The root of social malaise is not poor housing, or youth ‘alienation’, or the lack of a middle class. Lower-class, unemployed white people lived for years in appalling slums without a breakdown of public order on anything like the present scale ... riots, criminality and social disintegration are caused solely by individual characters and attitudes.

“[Lord] Young’s new [that is, black] entrepreneurs will set up in the disco and drug trade

Cheezy - I see the point, but don't think words have to be eternally charged with the worst associations ever given to them (though if we're going to talk terminology, 'degenerate art' applied to all modernist movements, which were seen as 'Jewish' but could be made by those whose Aryan credentials were impeccable - as Emil Nolde, a member of the Nazi Party). 'Queer theory' is now a course at universities: I remember when you only heard the word 'queer' said with a snarl, and usually followed by a beating. You're right that words take on new meanings with new contexts, but that applies for moving away from as well as towards evil meanings. If you want to say that 'degenerate' or 'thug' is still used with a racial undertone, that's something else. As of a few minutes ago, I'd no longer disagree particularly strongly, though I think in Britain you're much more likely to hear them used of working-class, young, unemployed white people.

 

[useless]

I'm sure there's no history or culture of white people revelling in "thug lifestyle" like the mafia etc oh wait, there are literally musuems dedicated to white mobsters and gangs, films glorifying/defending them, etc, why aren't you speaking about how white culture has promoted these thugs? Is there something different about them, to you?

Also, the yakuza (japanese gangsters, basically thugs) have their own buildings and headquarters in japan, i don't see the crips or bloods having anything near that sort of acceptance, where they can literally open a public headquarters. Why aren't you speaking about how the japanese revel in crime?

Not even getting into the cartels in Central and Southern America, which are literally so bloodthirsty and barbaric that they would make ISIS blush.

 

[Ryika]

I was willing to back you on the racism charge, but:

Oh dear. That sounds like something Oliver Letwin - a minister in the British Cabinet, incidentally - would say.

What, are you saying it's not statistically true or does it just sound too politically incorrect to say? Gang violence, predominantly black and the people in those gangs are proud of it. "gangster rap", "pimp rap", predominantly black, by people talking about how great their life as a "gangster" or "thug" is. Is it because they're black? No, probably not, as so often if people live in poverty and don't have much perspective they start to create a warped perspective in the lifestyle that is available to them. But I have no doubt that black people are using the word "thug" as a pseudo-positive thing more than anyone else, so obviously it's also used against them more often.

 

[NovaKart]

And I'm telling you the context. ffs.

You're insisting there is only one context and there isn't. You're blinded by dogma.

 

[Flying Pig]

What, are you saying it's not statistically true or does it just sound too politically incorrect to say? Gang violence, predominantly black and the people in those gangs are proud of it. "gangster rap", "pimp rap", predominantly black, by people talking about how great their life as a "gangster" or "thug" is. Is it because they're black? No, probably not, as so often if people live in poverty and don't have much perspective they start to create a warped perspective in the lifestyle that is available to them. But I have no doubt that black people are using the word "thug" as a pseudo-positive thing more than anyone else, so obviously it's also used against them more often.

There's a lot of difference between 'more black people listen to gangster rap than other groups' (which may or may not be true, and may or may not be the same as supporting 'thug culture') and saying 'blacks like thug culture'. Imagine the difference between 'more Nazis are Germans than any other nationality' and 'Germans revel in Nazism like no other nationality'.

EDIT: Useless makes an excellent point.

 

[Ryika]

There's a lot of difference between 'more black people listen to gangster rap than other groups' (which may or may not be true, and may or may not be the same as supporting 'thug culture') and saying 'blacks like thug culture'. Imagine the difference between 'more Nazis are Germans than any other nationality' and 'Germans revel in Nazism like no other nationality'.

Okay, I see where you're coming from, when people say "White cops are prone to shooting black people." then I do of course call them out on the nonsensical generalization, as would you, right? So I see how my comment was not phrased very well, I'll rephrase it:

Certain parts of black culture use the word 'thug' way more active and more often as an euphemism than any other culture does, so it's not a big surprise that people would associate the word more heavily with black people than any other demographic.

 

[useless]

Okay, I see where you're coming from, when people say "White cops are prone to shooting black people." then I do of course call them out on the nonsensical generalization, as would you, right? So I see how my comment was not phrased very well, I'll rephrase it:

Certain parts of black culture use the word 'thug' way more active and more often as an euphemism than any other culture does, so it's not a big surprise that people would associate the word more heavily with black people than any other demographic.

This is such a cop out, it has nothing to do with how many black people use the word and more to do with people determining that because someone is a gangster and is black is there for a "thug" whilst a white person could be a member of a mafia and not be a thug, despite being just as criminal and just as brutal or violent.

Why are the mafia mythologised? What about American-Irish gangs and terrorism?

Also; what is black culture? I'm pretty sure African-American culture differs greatly from say, black african-culture.

 

[Ryika]

Why are the mafia mythologised?

Because the mafia was cool. As were the Zulu.

 

[useless]

The mafia murdered people, they were the very definition of thugs.

 

[Ryika]

That's why they're usually described as gangsters, yes.

 

[Flying Pig]

Because the mafia was cool. As were the Zulu.

The Godfather influenced Mafia behaviour more than the Mafia influenced its depiction. Coppola deliberately didn't do much research for the film, focusing instead on telling a bigger story: remember the first line? What you really mean is that somebody created a picture of the Mafia which people find cool and aspirational, and people accepted it, which hasn't happened for (say) Mexican drug cartels. When you ask yourself why, I'll suggest it's because most people aren't so used to looking down on Italians as criminals any more, and you can have a positive image of yourself as Vito Corleone because you don't (consciously or not) build your self-image around not being like those Italians. That wasn't always the case, mind you.

 

[Borachio]

The mafia murdered people, they were the very definition of thugs.

A group of thugs, c 1894.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuggee

So, while the thugs did murder large numbers of people, I'm not sure that the mafia qualify as the very definition of thugs, since as far as I know the Italians weren't generally devotees of Kali.

But I nit-pick. I admit it.

 

[NovaKart]

Well I think black American gang culture is more influential than Italian American mafia culture with young people today even if the mafia has also been glorified in movies and tv. I do think we could point out the black American street gang culture has influence beyond just the black community because its also imitated by people of other races.

 

[Kyriakos]

The Godfather influenced Mafia behaviour more than the Mafia influenced its depiction. Coppola deliberately didn't do much research for the film, focusing instead on telling a bigger story: remember the first line? What you really mean is that somebody created a picture of the Mafia which people find cool and aspirational, and people accepted it, which hasn't happened for (say) Mexican drug cartels. When you ask yourself why, I'll suggest it's because most people aren't so used to looking down on Italians as criminals any more, and you can have a positive image of yourself as Vito Corleone because you don't (consciously or not) build your self-image around not being like those Italians. That wasn't always the case, mind you.

That film spawned the dreadful mafia-themed piles of films in the 90s, which was analogous to the current superhero movie pile-up

I never liked mafia films, although as a highscool teen i was naturally impressed by the ''solve' all your problems by killing the enemy' routine.

 

[useless]

A group of thugs, c 1894.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuggee

So, while the thugs did murder large numbers of people, I'm not sure that the mafia qualify as the very definition of thugs.

Now see if i said "Thugees" instead, you might have a point.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

You're letting Cheezy derail the thread again... arguing for pages over something that was quite clearly not even remotely the intention of the original poster. Just tell him he's wrong and talk about something more relevant...


degenerate

noun

noun: degenerate; plural noun: degenerates

/dɪˈdʒɛn(&#601rət/

1. an immoral or corrupt person.
"get out of my house, you degenerate!"

synonyms: reprobate, debauchee, rake, profligate, libertine, roué, loose-liver;


thug

/θʌɡ/

noun

noun: thug; plural noun: thugs; noun: Thug

1. a violent person, especially a criminal.
"he was attacked by a gang of thugs"

synonyms: ruffian, hoodlum, bully boy, bully, bandit, mugger, gangster, terrorist, gunman, murderer, killer, hitman, assassin, hooligan, vandal, Yardie;


Argument dismissed. Move on.

 

[BvBPL]

Why are the mafia mythologised? What about American-Irish gangs and terrorism?

It is because violence excites people. It is sexy and fascinating. The violence of others feeds our fantasies of being violent to others, and stories of criminals who live outside the rules allow us to imagine how we ourselves would live outside the rules.

That's why we remember Huey Newton and forget Stokley Carmichael. Carmichael was much more effective at advocating for Black Power and empowerment than Newton ever was, but Newton comes first to mind because his violence seared itself into our memories.

Which is problematic from a social action standpoint because it seems that violence is more effective than non-violent action. It isn't, at least not in democratic nations. Violence is merely more memorable.

 

[Ryika]

The Godfather influenced Mafia behaviour more than the Mafia influenced its depiction. Coppola deliberately didn't do much research for the film, focusing instead on telling a bigger story: remember the first line? What you really mean is that somebody created a picture of the Mafia which people find cool and aspirational, and people accepted it, which hasn't happened for (say) Mexican drug cartels. When you ask yourself why, I'll suggest it's because most people aren't so used to looking down on Italians as criminals any more, and you can have a positive image of yourself as Vito Corleone because you don't (consciously or not) build your self-image around not being like those Italians. That wasn't always the case, mind you.

I'll bring forward the game Call of Juarez: The Cartel as an example for why the Mexican Drug Cartels haven't been fetishist yet. People make a big fuzz and start crying if you pick up such a topic and try to represent it in a way that is entertaining to watch/play - sure the controversies surrounding this game can still be found on the internet.

And I'd argue that anyone who would try to fetichize black crime and make it look cool could as well shoot their career and bury it in their garden, just because it's less painful than being lynched by the social justice mob.