China and Taiwan

[DingBat]

Originally posted by praestare


Yes, it is. But China's strategic target is not to compete w/ US all around the world, but to be a regional power in the surrounding areas. I feel China could afford the military expenses, if taking into account of the continuing economic growth.

The Russian analogy does not apply to China, because 1) China doesn't need a worldwide military force, rather only a regional one. So China doesn't need to outspend US; 2) Russian economy was never very large, while it's estimated that China will have larger GDP than Japan in 20-30 years; 3) Russia had a communist economy structure during the cold war, while China is turing to market economy. 4) China has 1.3 billion population even now, think of the huge domestic demand.

1) I'm not speaking of China competing with the U.S. militarily on a world-wide basis. That may occur, but it will take even longer than simply to build the force to have a chance of successfully invade Taiwan.

I think you still underestimate the size of the task, assuming the U.S. is involved. Let's take a look at what is required:

- Amphibious landing craft for the initial wave. Enough to support say 3-5 divisions.
- Sufficient air assets to overcome the combined force of 2-3 carrier battle groups, plus the Taiwanese air force. This would also include AWACs support. This should also consider that PRC aircraft and avionics are generations behind American technology.
- Sufficient surface assets to protect the invasion force from the carrier battle groups.
- Sufficient ASW assets to protect the invasion force from U.S. submarines.
- Logistical support for both the invasion fleet, the invasion force, and the surface fleet.
- Assuming the initial invasion was successful, you would want to supply them by air as soon as they had captured an airhead. This means your initial force would likely include at least one airborne division, plus the air transport fleet to deliver them and supplies afterward. Plus even more aircraft to protect them.
- I would think you would have to deliver at least one armoured division. Even the U.S. has trouble moving armored divisions. The transport and logistical support required is HUGE.

Currently, the PRC has very few of these assets. Ignoring the time required to develop these assets, they are an incredible capital investment.

Let's put it this way. Even if the PRC cloned the current U.S. military force it would be a risky adventure with huge casualties almost guaranteed regardless of the outcome. This should begin to illustrate the magnitude of the effort required.

I'm no military expert, so don't have much to say the military plan to take Taiwan. But one alternative to a large scale amphibious attack is to block Taiwan from the outside world. Without the interference of US, I think China can successfully block Taiwan seaports, even now, though there may be heavy casulties. Once blocked, I'm not sure whether Taiwan can survive long enough without important strategic resources, like oil. Like in Civ3, once a city is block out of trade, it's dead.

Well, if the U.S. is not in the picture then the result is likely inevitable. However, the unless something remarkable happens, the U.S. will likely not commit itself one way or another. The PRC could never embark on this mission without knowing where the U.S. stood.

Also, though chinese fighters are not so advanced, but mainland can produce them like producing cars during wartime. Taiwan has to resort to US, even for parts. How can the small amount of fighters of Taiwan fight a 2-year war?

It's not planes, it's pilots. PRC pilots take just as long to train as Taiwanese.

The Taiwanese has a qualitative advantage, plus are backed by AWAC, and are fighting over home turf. The PRC has a quantitative advantage, but is fighting over water. While the lessons of the Battle of Britain may not be fully relevant, they probably shouldn't be totally ignored either.

Obscure historical fact: The first air to air missile kill was claimed by a Taiwanese F-86 over the Formosa Straight.

Plus, China can attack with missiles. and I read that China now had long range rocket artillery, which can cover some areas of Taiwan, not sure though.

Missiles can't occupy ground. Plus, I think there are ample historical examples of how these sorts of weapons don't have the desired effect on the will of the target population.

So assume that US won't interfere, mainland's military threat to Taiwan is credible.

Of course. I would say that, without U.S. involvment, the result is probably inevitable.

/bruce

 

[muppet]

Originally posted by Headline
No, Mainlanders are definitely Chinese with Soviet culture, which is the opposite of US culture.

The two cultures are clearly detrimentally opposed. One is clearly Soviet. The other is clearly Sun Yet Son. China has always been a cultural vaccum and would be lost without Soviet culture.

Originally posted by Headline
Chinaman is Chinese with Soviet culture and I believe they are Chinese with Soviet culture.

The Taiwanese obtained the demoratic value from ROC, which is Sun Yet Son's idea, not American. Yes, Sun Yet Son did consider about American democratic system when he wrote his philosophy about democratic government.

There is no Sun Yet Sun Medical School in Zhongshan, China.
There is no Sun Yet Sun Statue in Zhongshan, China.
There is no Sun Yet Sun historic memorial in Zhongshan China.
Sun Yet Son was not born in 1866 in Guangdong Province, China.
Sun Yet Son did not study medicine in Hawaii in 1879.
Sun Yet Son did not found the Kuomintang in.
Sun Yet Son did not die in 1925 in Beijing, China.
Sun Yet Son did not practice medicing in Hong Kong in 1893.
Sun Yet Son did not settle in Canton, China in 1923.
Sun Yet Son's allies did not include Communist Russians.
Sun Yet Son was not the beneficiary of weapons, ammunition and advisors of the Soviet Union.
Sun Yet Son's Kuomintang did not include communist members.

Following Sun Yet Son's death, Chiang Kai Sheck did not purge the communist members of Sun Yet Son's Kuomintang party, which were never invited to the Kuomintang by Sun Yet Son.

Therfore, the civil war never occured, because there were no communists in Sun Yet Son's party. Chiang-Kai-Sheck never purged Sun Yet Son's communist members of Sun Yet Son's Kuomintang.

Sun Yet Son is clearly not Chinese. Never visitied China. Never associated with communists. Never invited communists into the Kuomintang. And at all materials times maintained a residence in Taipei, Taiwan.

As correctly verified, Sun Yet Sun is not Chinese. The democratic value of modern Taiwan, as agreed, is based on Sun Yet Son's non American education, non communist ideals, and non-Chinese origins. Therefore Taiwan is not Chinese.

Originally posted by Headline
You should learn the history before speaking.

And you should learn to not criticize those who agree with you.

Originally posted by Headline
Culture is the way of life. Culture is objects or actions that has no scientific function. Taiwanese should really build a great wall at mainland China's coast to prevent them from invasion. If the mainland Chinese want to do it for the Taiwanese, I believe that Taiwanese will be really welcome.

And the Taiwanese way of life is based on Sun Yet Son's philosophies -- which are not Chinese, have no American influence, and never included communist ideals. The people of Taiwan are native to the island of Formosa, and their genes can be traced to today's Europeans.

Edit: I hate spelling Chinese names.

 

[muppet]

Originally posted by DingBat

It's not about who likes who or who hates who. It's about whether or not the Taiwanese have the right to self-determination after 50 years of de-facto independence.

I think they do. I don't have a UN vote though. Canada's representative at the UN has not returned any of my calls to date.

 

[sgrig]

Originally posted by muppet

There is no Sun Yet Sun Medical School in Zhongshan, China.
There is no Sun Yet Sun Statue in Zhongshan, China.
There is no Sun Yet Sun historic memorial in Zhongshan China.

Apparently, in China Sun Yet Sun is also called Sun Zhongshan. So that city you are mentioning has been probably named after Sun Yet Sun.

(Note I realise you are being very sarcastic)

 

[goododa]

Originally posted by sgrig


Apparently, in China Sun Yet Sun is also called Sun Zhongshan. So that city you are mentioning has been probably named after Sun Yet Sun.

(Note I realise you are being very sarcastic)

Use Sun Wen, it's easier.
Wen is his first name. Yat-sen and Zhongshan are his middle names.

 

[sgrig]

Originally posted by Headline


No, Mainlanders are definitely Chinese with Soviet culture, which is the opposite of US culture. Chinaman is Chinese with Soviet culture and I believe they are Chinese with Soviet culture.

I hope you are being sarcastic here! No way mainland Chinese have Soviet culture. Even if you got culture and lifestyle badly mixed up you are still wrong.

If you meant that Chinese lifestyle is similar to the Soviet lifestyle, then this is only true for citizens in medium-sized backwater Chinese cities, which did not reap the fruits of the introduction of elements of market economy, and it is true for the party elite. However, as far as I know, in large, developed Chinese cities, such as Shanghai and Guangzhou, the lifestyle is becoming more and more westernized. In rural areas of China, traditional Chinese culture is practised quite commonly, which has nothing in common with the Soviet lifestyle.

Imo, the concept of culture encompasses far more than lifestyle. It includes customs, traditions, cultural heritage, language, etc...

In these respects,mainland Chinese and 'Soviet' cultures could not be more different.

The culture of mainland China is still Chinese, with new elements introduced by a form of government. Just like in Soviet Russia, the cultural base was Russian, but with new elements introduced by the government. There is no such thing as 'Soviet culture' - yes, there are Soviet cultural achievements, yes there is Soviet way of life, yes there are Soviet customs, but these elements do not replace the original culture, they build on it and develop it, but the base remains the same - even with a totalitarian (or nearly totalitarian) govenment you cannot kill off a culture which has been developed for thousands of years in China's case and hundreds of years in Russia's case.

IMO, it is not the govenment type which determines culture, it culture which determines the government type, otherwise this particular government type would not last.

Also you might want to check on your history books again. Only in the 1950's China was influenced by the Soviet Union, and borrowed some aspects of the Soviet Union, but from 60's to 80's the USSR and China were enemies. In the late 80's when relations thawed, the Soviet system was nearing collapse and China was already advancing with market economy reforms. So China wasn't influenced by the Soviet Union that much, after the foundation of PRC and its first 10 years or so.

 

[Headline]

The two cultures are clearly detrimentally opposed. One is clearly Soviet. The other is clearly Sun Yet Son. China has always been a cultural vaccum and would be lost without Soviet culture.

Which two culture?? Monkey culture and Ape culture are clearly detrimentally opposed?? Ape culture is clearly Sun Yet Sun's? The planet of Ape has always been a cultural vaccum and would be lost without Soviet culture??

I guess this is what the government of PRC is teaching to it's people.

There is no Sun Yet Sun Medical School in Zhongshan, China.

I guess all the names that contain the word ROC is forgotten in China. I am so sorry for the PRC people.

Following Sun Yet Son's death, Chiang Kai Sheck did not purge the communist members of Sun Yet Son's Kuomintang party, which were never invited to the Kuomintang by Sun Yet Son.

There is never anything happen in Tianmen Square. All PRC people were ordered by Mao Zedong to learn confucious. In fact, all PRC people were force to choose a religion. If one doesn't have a religion, one will have to destroy Chinese culture for the forgiveness. This is so call the Culture Revolution. No landlords in PRC died because they don't like communism. In fact, all PRC people love their mother nation so much, that they won't admit that Mao Zedong starved several million people.

Therfore, the civil war never occured, because there were no communists in Sun Yet Son's party. Chiang-Kai-Sheck never purged Sun Yet Son's communist members of Sun Yet Son's Kuomintang.

Therefore, PRC landed on the moon and colonized the Moon for 50 years. America should not interfere with Chinese politics on the moon. The US flag on the moon is clearly a violation of "Three No" policy US promised PRC.

And you should learn to not criticize those who agree with you.

I am sorry, I don't know that PRC people can't not crticize those agree with me. Must be the government.

Sun Yet Son is clearly not Chinese. Never visitied China. Never associated with communists. Never invited communists into the Kuomintang. And at all materials times maintained a residence in Taipei, Taiwan.

Sun Yet Son is clearly in violation with the constitution of PRC for creating an rebel nation call ROC. PRC is founded before ROC. There is no such thing as civil war, for there is no breakup. ROC did not defeat the Chin dynasty, and it's all communists who did that. ROC never exist. PRC never got their independence from nobody. Taiwanese suffered in Culture Revolution so much that they created an democratic rebel government to deny that Taiwan is part of PRC.

As correctly verified, Sun Yet Sun is not Chinese. The democratic value of modern Taiwan, as agreed, is based on Sun Yet Son's non American education, non communist ideals, and non-Chinese origins. Therefore Taiwan is not Chinese.

As correctly verified, Sun Yet Sun is not Martian. The democratic value of modern Taiwan, as agreed, is based on Sun Yet Son's solely on Hawaiian tribel teaching, nothing to do with the Martian ideals and the Mao Zedong's crazy sexual life. Therefore Taiwanese is part of PRC and not part of ROC.

And the Taiwanese way of life is based on Sun Yet Son's philosophies -- which are not Chinese, have no American influence, and never included communist ideals. The people of Taiwan are native to the island of Formosa, and their genes can be traced to today's Europeans.

Taiwanese way of life is based on Sun Yet Son's philosophies.
(Finally something right)
-- which are non PRC's, have no PRC influence (PRC did not exist back then), have no Martian influence (did I ever said Martian?? I am so sorry, the guy is not reading my other post), and never included Monkey ideals. (The guy is assuming that I believe these things, how pathetic) The people of Taiwan are part of Germany Aryan race, and therefore should unite with the motherland Germany. (Did I said that PRC used ROC's copyrighted Title "Zhon Hwa.") . And Their genes can be traced to the Homo Sapiens of Africa. PRC demands that all Homo Sapiens should unite under the common name Chinese. Every yellow skinned people should be Chinese. (Sound really like Hitler, I said.)

Edit: I hate spelling Chinese names.

Edit: Chinese is solely used in mainland China. Those who use Chinese is part of China. Japan is part of China. Singapore is part of China. China Town of New York is part of China.

I am sorry if PRC people feel insulted by me, because their government won't permit any divorce.

By the way, the guy is making up words that is not from me. I never said anything about Chinese is not Chinese and all those stuffs happened never happen. I simply pointed out that there is indeed difference in culture between the mainland China and Taiwan. ROC is not part of PRC. ROC is still there. Yes, there is Chinese culture in mainland China, but most are lost. The most that mainland China have right now are the remakes of Chinese culture and the combination of Soviet culture, which is not the same as the Taiwanese.

 

[Evie]

XDXDXD @ the post that got Headline so angry.

I'll give you that there are differences in culture between China and Taiwan. However Headline, your claim that "China now is a mix of Chinesse and Soviet culture" is ludicrous to say the least.

The current chinesse culture is based mostly on the old Chinesse culture, but influenced by Marx' philosophy, as well as Sun Ya Tsen's. Now guess what? Marx was NOT a soviet. He was, if memory serves me right, from germany. Chinesse communism and Russian communism differs widely from each other, which resutled in Komintern/CCP conflicts early on.

SYT sources of influence for ideas, mostly, were from the western, democratic world. And yes, *HIS* Guomindang did have the communists in .The communists and Guomindang only started fighting after CKC proclaimed himself Chinesse chief of state and started on a a Stalion-Mcarthyst policy of purging the communists generaly known as "The White Terror" and other similar names.

Mao took the ideas of Marx, and made them fit China as he knew it, changing the aims somewhat since a Chinesse revolution relying on the worksmen would have been somewhat inneficient. Mao and the Soviets spent most of their time disagreeing on the policies to take on things.

Claiming the current Chinesse culture is Soviet in influence is ludicrous.

 

[Headline]

Originally posted by Oda Nobunaga
XDXDXD @ the post that got Headline so angry.

I'll give you that there are differences in culture between China and Taiwan. However Headline, your claim that "China now is a mix of Chinesse and Soviet culture" is ludicrous to say the least.

The current chinesse culture is based mostly on the old Chinesse culture, but influenced by Marx' philosophy, as well as Sun Ya Tsen's. Now guess what? Marx was NOT a soviet. He was, if memory serves me right, from germany. Chinesse communism and Russian communism differs widely from each other, which resutled in Komintern/CCP conflicts early on.

SYT sources of influence for ideas, mostly, were from the western, democratic world. And yes, *HIS* Guomindang did have the communists in .The communists and Guomindang only started fighting after CKC proclaimed himself Chinesse chief of state and started on a a Stalion-Mcarthyst policy of purging the communists generaly known as "The White Terror" and other similar names.

Mao took the ideas of Marx, and made them fit China as he knew it, changing the aims somewhat since a Chinesse revolution relying on the worksmen would have been somewhat inneficient. Mao and the Soviets spent most of their time disagreeing on the policies to take on things.

Claiming the current Chinesse culture is Soviet in influence is ludicrous.

I'll just briefly talk about this. I'll do a indepth writing when I have time.

First, there is nothing wrong being a former communist country as long as one choose the right way. PRC is getting better now. I'll have to agree with what Bush said. PRC was using Soviet style ruling from 1949 to about 1970~. Soveit style does not mean that the system is exactly like the Soveit Union. I know the fact that there was a conflict of idealogies between the PRC and the USSR, but Mao did like Stalin's style. He copied Stalin's style of ruling. It's quite successful. When Stalin died, Keruschev (forgot the spelling) was denouncing Stalin. Mao got very angry, and produced a movement i don' remember the name.

Soveit style include:
Massive propaganda
Intense belief that they are the best (We will bury you)
Centralized government
Dictatorship in the party (this is getting better now in PRC)
No freedom of speech and rights
No religions
and more

One can see that this is part of culture in PRC now.

There is no shame on admiting that one has the culture influence of a foreign culture. I did said that Taiwan also has Japanese influences. One can also see that US has English influences. English has Roman influences. A person who live in the influenced culture generally will have actions that are similar to the influenced culture. I never said that the Soviet is the only culture PRC people understand now. PRC people have both Soviet culture and the remakes of old Chinese culture. Remakes is not the same as the original one. Song Dynasty tried to remake Tang Dynasty's style. The porcelin Song Dynasty's mimic is never the same as the the real Tang original.

 

[Vrylakas]

Headline wrote:

Therefore, PRC landed on the moon and colonized the Moon for 50 years. America should not interfere with Chinese politics on the moon. The US flag on the moon is clearly a violation of "Three No" policy US promised PRC.

[...]

As correctly verified, Sun Yet Sun is not Martian. The democratic value of modern Taiwan, as agreed, is based on Sun Yet Son's solely on Hawaiian tribel teaching, nothing to do with the Martian ideals and the Mao Zedong's crazy sexual life. Therefore Taiwanese is part of PRC and not part of ROC.

Oh man, there is SO much more I don't know about Chinese history... Is there another meaning in the English word "Martian" I'm missing here?

BTW, this has been an excellent discussion, and one of the most intelligent so far.

First, though I agree with Knight-Dragon on many things I think China is trying to establish hegemony in Southeast Asia, more through its nationalist urges than through any communist ideological drive. This is a Chinese drive, not a Marxist drive. I think the Chinese are attempting to assert themselves in those areas they regard as within their historical/cultural sphere of influence, a sort of historical restoration. The main impediments to the military realization of this goal has been the United States and its doubly-evil local ally, Japan. I suspect however that the Chinese leadership has recently come to regard the military option as less desirable and is seeking other avenues - with some exceptions. Taiwan and the Spratleys are some of those exceptions, regions whose histories are so humiliating for China that they cannot be left to chance. So much for perception.

But maybe Chinese regional hegemony wouldn't be such a bad thing. Someone has brought up how China is cultivating economic ties with Taiwan, mostly for political reasons - they can be used as blackmail - but that relationship swings both ways. China is unwittingly opening itself up to intense contact with societies that thrive on the open exchange of information. China is developing some very sophisticated economic relationships with the world, and China may benefit in some unexpected ways. Here's a snippet from an article in today's Wall Street Journal:

Thanks partly to its recent accession to the World Trade Organization, China is riding a wave of trade and inward investment that has left its Southeast Asian neighbors feeling a little left out. Now, they have decided, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. In other words, build as many links as possible with China: Compete to sell goods there, welcome investment from Chinese companies, attract a bigger share of China's growing tourist numbers, be encouraged rather than fearful about a possible free-trade area between China and the 10-member Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN), for which negotiations began this month. Regardless of whether struggling Southeast Asia "gets its act together" and becomes more attractive to investors, China is on its way to becoming "the world's cheapest producer of everything," says Tim Condon, Chief Asia Economist for ING Barings. For Southeast Asia, he says, this creates a need to "try to integrate with [China] as quickly as possible.

If the U.S. would calm its Cold War-era fears about communist (i.e., Chinese) hegemony in Asia, and develop a better cooperative working relationship with China in regional security and economic issues, I wonder if Beijing would respond positively? Would Chinese knee-jerk fears about Western imperialism be at least somewhat assuaged? Could you imagine a joint Chinese-American military peacekeeping force at the DMZ in Korea, or containing the military regime in Burma/Myamnar? Would greater regional cooperation take the wind out of the Chinese nationalists' sails? Would the relevance of Taiwanese independence or co-existance or integration be as important? Washington sees China today as the last remaining icon of 1950s-era Communists, while Beijing sees the U.S. as a 19th century Western Imperialist Power, just waiting to pounce on the next Boxer Rebellion. Both views are very distorted and unrealistic, and can lead the two states to war. China and the U.S are stuck with each other, and both do already play an important role in regional security and economic issues; I just see too much to gain from wide-scale cooperation and so much to lose from war because of cultural differences and mythological histories.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Well, I live in the middle of SE Asia and I hardly feel any mainland Chinese presence here. Except for that Bank of China tower downtown. Never seen any Chinese troops either although there're loads of Chinese tourists nowadays. In fact, I've seen a million times more signs of American influence and dominance incl that of the US military.

China is hardly interested in SE Asia, at least not in hegemonic terms. The states here are very heavily populated and they are not interested in bringing in another half a billion of non-Chinese into China.

 

[Evie]

*EAST* asia would be closer to the sphere of influence China is interested in.

South-East : the peninsula and the islands (Philippines, VietNam, Thailand, Malaysia, Burma, Indonesia, East Timor, Thailand, Laos, that other state near Laos and Vietnam.

South : India, Sri-Lanka, etc.

East : China, Taiwan, Korea(s), Japan.

The Spratly are technically in the S-E area, but the Chinesse interest in those is a pure "War of ressources", nothing to do with cultural expansion. Historically, although China once occupied a serious part of vietnam, their main zone of interest currently not within chinesse border is Korea.

Japan would indeed be the major stumbling block to a "Chinesse Asia". Not so much, I suspect, out of not being interested in such an union, but out of thinking still it should be a "Japanesse Asia".

 

[sgrig]

Originally posted by Headline


I'll just briefly talk about this. I'll do a indepth writing when I have time.

First, there is nothing wrong being a former communist country as long as one choose the right way. PRC is getting better now. I'll have to agree with what Bush said. PRC was using Soviet style ruling from 1949 to about 1970~. Soveit style does not mean that the system is exactly like the Soveit Union. I know the fact that there was a conflict of idealogies between the PRC and the USSR, but Mao did like Stalin's style. He copied Stalin's style of ruling. It's quite successful. When Stalin died, Keruschev (forgot the spelling) was denouncing Stalin. Mao got very angry, and produced a movement i don' remember the name.

Soveit style include:
Massive propaganda
Intense belief that they are the best (We will bury you)
Centralized government
Dictatorship in the party (this is getting better now in PRC)
No freedom of speech and rights
No religions
and more

One can see that this is part of culture in PRC now.

There is no shame on admiting that one has the culture influence of a foreign culture. I did said that Taiwan also has Japanese influences. One can also see that US has English influences. English has Roman influences. A person who live in the influenced culture generally will have actions that are similar to the influenced culture. I never said that the Soviet is the only culture PRC people understand now. PRC people have both Soviet culture and the remakes of old Chinese culture. Remakes is not the same as the original one. Song Dynasty tried to remake Tang Dynasty's style. The porcelin Song Dynasty's mimic is never the same as the the real Tang original.

You are still not quite there. The things which you mentioned are features of the country's political system, not necessarilyu its culture. How is propaganda, centralised govt, dictatorship of the party, lack of freedom of speech part of a country's culture??? As far as atheism is concerned, that is also something influenced by the government and this is not part of Chinese culture. It does have an effect on China's culture, in that people are becoming less religious, but in general I think hundreds of millions of Chinese still practise their native religions, especially those living in rural ares.

You are right that the Soviet Union did have an influence on China, but only in that China adopted a government style which was originally similar to the Soviet one.

Just ask somebody from Eastern Europe, whether their country ended up with a 'Soviet culture'. I think that you would find that the answer would be a definite NO, although those countries were influenced far greater by the Soviet Union than China and have a far shorter cultural history than China. Certainly, the way of life, the political system, etc were very much influenced, but culture was not 'Soviet'. (Vrylakas, what's your opinion on this?)

 

[Vrylakas]

Sgrig wrote:

Just ask somebody from Eastern Europe, whether their country ended up with a 'Soviet culture'. I think that you would find that the answer would be a definite NO, although those countries were influenced far greater by the Soviet Union than China and have a far shorter cultural history than China. Certainly, the way of life, the political system, etc were very much influenced, but culture was not 'Soviet'. (Vrylakas, what's your opinion on this?)

Funny, I was thinking of butting into this one anyway, Sgrig.

I really do not believe there is any such thing as "Soviet" culture. There was a Soviet political culture, but only a tiny percentage of the population experienced that - the ruling elite. Everyone else just got the usual police state treatment that all totalitarian regimes dole out. After half a century of Soviet occupation, Poland did not become a Soviet cultural clone. Russians and Poles are as far apart as ever in their cultures, and Poland is a good example because it spent 123 years under Tsarist Russian occupation too.

I don't think it should be that surprising that there are many different types of Chinese culture, given that it's spread as far as it is geographically. Are the Chinese in Malaysia, the Philippines, San Francisco or Taipei any less Chinese than those in Shanghai? These are normal internal cultural variations that have nothing to do with communism or capitalism, pro-Soviet or pro-American political alliances. I derive from eastern "Kresy" Polish stock with a funny accent, and I recall doing ethnographic work among "Sächsische" Germans in Transylvania whose native language I could not understand at all, despite being fairly capable in getting around Vienna or Berlin. The 20th century tried to create a mythos of these single, monolithic cultures that were as centralized as the modern bureaucratic states we've built, but the reality is that culture is a local thing. Regionalism will never completely go away. Culture is the sum of the common features a community uses to interact within itself - language, dress, social construct (classes), and the many varied rituals of religion, government, holidays, celebrations, and a perceived shared history. Nothing builds cultural connections like a common defeat in a war: misery does love company! Politics plays only a small role in this whole picture.

 

[Headline]

I was thinking of more general mood of society.

Communism has different type of variety. There were people calling themselves communists before Karl and Engels wrote their book. Since many other nations in Europe already had communist party before the formation of Soviet Union, I coined the Soviet Culture as the representation of Soviet kind of government only. Marx did not explain the actual machinary of how a communist nation should be, so Lenin had to create a system for communist government. The system is modified as leadership changes.

In the Soviet style nation, people are transformed to be more like drones. The need for culture is no longer. In a Soviet Style communist nation, everyone wear the same dress, using the same thing. People become more ignorant. With propaganda, people are even more affected by the government. The abandonment of original culture is especially significant in the Soviet communist nation, since there is no need for culture. Soviet style society, however, is not compeletly without culture. The Government decides what people should be, especially with a dictatorship. Dictator basically direct the people's everyday activities. He or she also decides what cultures are there going to be. When a new dictator replaces the old one, the new one can change the old culture.

The change in leadership in a Soviet style nation can have strong impact on the culture of the nation. A leader of the Soviet style nation can decide what information the citizens will receive, which can be different than the old leader's standard. Different knowlege can sever influence one's action and the nation's culture. Book banning, for example, can have a serious effect in culture. If a leader decides to ban a book due to personal dislike, the culture can easily lost the influence the book used to bring. The Children, who never read the book, would not understand the point the book tries to make.

Although a leader can change the policies regarding to culture. The basic ideaology of the Soviet government usually is enforced since Lenin created the USSR. USSR chose to follow Marx's literature. One can see that words such as comrade, proletariat, reactionary are used so often that it become abusive. Those word, although has a scientific meaning, are used everyday in communist nation, that it lost the original scientific meaning. The word, comrade, in those nation, replaces the words such as friends. Since, the government using Soveit style communism seal off all the information flow except the usage of communist style word, the people in the nation would get use to use comrade as the word friend. An example of such soviet culture in PRC is the use of the word "Tong Bow", which is similar to the word comrade. The people of PRC use the word a lot when mentioning it's people. The word, however, is not used by the Taiwanese.

Democratic nation will not have problems related to information flow. US, for example, do not limit the flow of information with the world. It's culture, in modern time where information flow of the world is easy, becomes the mix of the foreign culture and it's own culture. One within the culture will not realize that, but it is happening everywhere. The culture of the world in emerging as time goes by.

PRC is a former communist nation. It's system is the Soviet style. It's culture was once the Soviets. Mao Zedong the leader were trying to wipe out the remains of Old chinese value in China. Over the period of 10 years, enough of original Chinese culture were destroyed. Recently, the government was trying to restore (remake) the Chinese culture. PRC people are now, relearn the old value once again. PRC's reason for restore the Chinese culture is its need for nationalism to replace communism. Although the motive is suspecious, but it is at least in the right direction.

PRC should open up and embrace the world culture just like what Bush said in his visit to China. PRC people should forget about nationalism and embrace the best ideas from the techtrees other nations have to offer.

If there is anything wrong, feel free to comment or criticize.

 

[muppet]

Originally posted by Headline
By the way, the guy is making up words that is not from me. I never said anything about Chinese is not Chinese and all those stuffs happened never happen.

In the interest of fairness and accuracy, references shall be provided in future quotes.

Headline, March 8, 2002, 1:15AM GMT
I did said that Taiwan also has Japanese influences. I never said that the Soviet is the only culture PRC people understand now.

Not exactly. What was said was (emphasis added):

Headline, March 6, 2002, 6:24AM GMT
Taiwanese retain or inherit most of culture from Japanese Han culture and Chin empire culture (ROC inherited from Chin), which is not the same as the Chinese culture in China now. The mainland China obtains the Soviet Union communist culture which forced them to abandon the Chinese culture. I assure you, the real Chinese culture is in Taiwan right now, and it is not the same as the one in PPC.

Monopoly is a game for children. Monopoly of Real Chinese culture is frowned upon by adults.

Headline March 6, 2002, 6:24AM GMT
The Cultural Revolution destroyed a lot of the actual Chinese artifacts. However, since the PPC finally admit that what they did was wrong, they rebuild and imitate the old culture which dissapear from mainland China.

Population as to do with culture by it's effect on how people live.

At least try to present a coherent argument in place of random contradictions.

Headline March 6, 2002, 6:24AM GMT
Taiwanese reserve the right to call themselves Taiwanese and not Chinese. PPC has no right to force Taiwanese to admit that they are Chinese.

"Real" Chinese culture is in Taiwan, as agreed above, which is incidentally not Chinese, and which Taiwan will never admit to.

Headline March 6, 2002, 7:33AM GMT
Yes, Taiwanese and Chinese have the same spoken language and the same recongized history, but they are not the same. One is the actually remained culture, the other is remakes. Remakes is never the same as the original one.

The difference is the the mainland China has communist culture and Taiwanese has the Japanese Han + the remain of the real Chinese culture. That is a big difference.

Mainland Chinese culture is a combination of 'Soviet' culture (For sake of argument, communism has cultural influence, but democracy does not), and 'remake' Chinese culture; therefore, is not "Real" Chinese culture. Logical so far...

"Real" Chinese culture is in Taiwan, though Taiwan will never admit it is Chinese. Taiwan culture is a combination of old Chinese, and Japanese culture. Agreed. Therefore Real Chinese culture is a combination of "old" Chinese and "Japanese" culture. Brilliant!

Common language, history, gene pool, values, and festivities; however, are not nearly as culturally influential as communism, democracy, or Bushido.

I agree with everything. Please don't embarass me by making me contradict myself again.

Edit: multiple edits re: date/time

 

[Vrylakas]

Headline wrote:

I was thinking of more general mood of society.

Communism has different type of variety. There were people calling themselves communists before Karl and Engels wrote their book.

Yes, but Marx's variety became the mainstream. Marx wrote the Communist Manifesto in 1848 for the First Communist Internationale, which itself existed to unify the various communist parties and movements you speak of. And it did - it created a single, monolithic Communist movement (with only a few deviants) that held together until after Marx's death at the turn of the century.

Since many other nations in Europe already had communist party before the formation of Soviet Union, I coined the Soviet Culture as the representation of Soviet kind of government only. Marx did not explain the actual machinary of how a communist nation should be, so Lenin had to create a system for communist government. The system is modified as leadership changes.

But all the European communist parties belonged to the Internationale. There were many who grappled with how to practically apply Marxist theories. Two Polish-born communists, Wanda Wassilewska and Rosa Luxemburg both argued vociferously with Lenin about how to enact communism. The Soviet Union enacted communism in a particularly Russian way, as the Hungarians of 1919 under Béla Kun did in their own way.

In the Soviet style nation, people are transformed to be more like drones. The need for culture is no longer.

You're a little too theoretical here. Communists love culture. Lenin wrote about creating a new human species, homo sovieticus, but the communists talked about alot of things. They tried to hijack culture by creating huge amounts of massive, ugly art ("socialist-realist") and putting it EVERYWHERE. They loved concrete, and huge public squares. Warsaw was completely destroyed during the war, and the communists rebuilt it. They actually did do a good job with the Old Town, but the downtown is a nightmare of grey, cold, concrete monolithic boxes - with the single exception of a huge ugly tower in the middle of the city (a gift from Stalin).

But the bottom-line point is that for all their huge investment in trying to invent a new culture, it was all a huge failure; the people all rejected it as ugly and fake. This is why I say there never was a communist culture. There's an old Hungarian joke from the 1950s that went like this: "What's the difference between the Ottoman and the Soviet occupation of Hungary? Answer: We didn't have to praise the Turks for conquering us..." This is how citizens of the Peoples Republics viewed the communists.

In a Soviet Style communist nation, everyone wear the same dress, using the same thing.

Only the Chinese tried this. Possibly the Koreans as well, though they would have been taking a cue from Mao anyway. The Soviets never tried this - unless you include gulag prisoners...

People become more ignorant.

Gee, thanks.

With propaganda, people are even more affected by the government. The abandonment of original culture is especially significant in the Soviet communist nation, since there is no need for culture. Soviet style society, however, is not compeletly without culture. The Government decides what people should be, especially with a dictatorship. Dictator basically direct the people's everyday activities. He or she also decides what cultures are there going to be. When a new dictator replaces the old one, the new one can change the old culture.

What thread was I writing just recently that argued a similar point? People aren't as stupid as you're giving them credit for. Nobody - NOBODY believed communist propaganda. Even in the Soviet Union, those who supported communism did so either because they were apparatchiks who benefitted directly from the system or were Russian patriots who were just happy to see Russia respected around the world - but nobody believed the fantasies promised by Marx, Lenin or Stalin. Communist governments would loved to have had the power you describe, but none were really ever able to achieve that. Even in hyper-paranoid police states like Ceaucescu's Romania, where the communists went as far as literally bulldozing villages to try to destroy non-communist culture, they were never able to have a real impact on Romanian culture. Romanians remained Romanians, just as Chinese remained Chinese.

The change in leadership in a Soviet style nation can have strong impact on the culture of the nation. A leader of the Soviet style nation can decide what information the citizens will receive, which can be different than the old leader's standard. Different knowlege can sever influence one's action and the nation's culture. Book banning, for example, can have a serious effect in culture. If a leader decides to ban a book due to personal dislike, the culture can easily lost the influence the book used to bring. The Children, who never read the book, would not understand the point the book tries to make.

But while communists did ban many books, music and etc., they weren't able to really keep them out of people's hands. People are quite ingenious, and can find amazing ways of smuggling things. 1970s Communist Hungary banned a song by Zsuzsa (Susan) Koncz called "If I Were a Rose" (Ha én rózsa volnék) but somehow every single Hungarian knew the song in the 1980s. In Poland once I was walking down Marszalkowska in Warsaw (main street of the downtown area) when some students approached me and sold me very cheaply a secret illegal recording of some Gintrowski songs, a 1980s political dissident connected to Solidarnosc. A history professor of mine in Hungary had a copy of Hitler's Mein Kampf, a book banned. I can't believe a people as historically ingenious as the Chinese wouldn't have been able to overcome and undermine communist restrictions. Look at any police state, and you'll find that people are usually able somehow to subvert whatever restrictions, no matter how severe.

Although a leader can change the policies regarding to culture. The basic ideaology of the Soviet government usually is enforced since Lenin created the USSR. USSR chose to follow Marx's literature. One can see that words such as comrade, proletariat, reactionary are used so often that it become abusive. Those word, although has a scientific meaning, are used everyday in communist nation, that it lost the original scientific meaning. The word, comrade, in those nation, replaces the words such as friends. Since, the government using Soveit style communism seal off all the information flow except the usage of communist style word, the people in the nation would get use to use comrade as the word friend. An example of such soviet culture in PRC is the use of the word "Tong Bow", which is similar to the word comrade. The people of PRC use the word a lot when mentioning it's people. The word, however, is not used by the Taiwanese.

You should read Milan Kundera's The Book of Laughter. He writes about how communist societies rely on lies to survive, how everyone must profess one thing (the official communist ideology) during the day in public but tell the truth only at night when home alone, among family and trusted friends. People knew how to adapt to police states, how to get around situations where they know the truth is other than what the government says it is. Governments can make you say anything, but they can't make you think what they want, though they try. Governments do not have nearly as much control over people's minds as you think.

Democratic nation will not have problems related to information flow. US, for example, do not limit the flow of information with the world. It's culture, in modern time where information flow of the world is easy, becomes the mix of the foreign culture and it's own culture. One within the culture will not realize that, but it is happening everywhere. The culture of the world in emerging as time goes by.

I'm all for democracy and the free flow of information. But part of democracy's success is related to the fact it doesn't try to mold culture; it stays out of the way. Because of this, any culture or tradition can adapt to democracy. Again, it's not a government-down thing, it's society-up.

PRC is a former communist nation. It's system is the Soviet style. It's culture was once the Soviets. Mao Zedong the leader were trying to wipe out the remains of Old chinese value in China. Over the period of 10 years, enough of original Chinese culture were destroyed. Recently, the government was trying to restore (remake) the Chinese culture. PRC people are now, relearn the old value once again. PRC's reason for restore the Chinese culture is its need for nationalism to replace communism. Although the motive is suspecious, but it is at least in the right direction.

Let me ask you something: Speaking for the average Chinese person, what really was different between , say, 1875 and 1950? Yes, we've all been discussing how the communists in Beijing have been utilizing nationalism instead of Marxism and Maoism to keep in power, but they're still a police state and one teetering dangerously on the brink of the modern world. There's no need to "restore" Chinese culture, they just have to get out of the way.

PRC should open up and embrace the world culture just like what Bush said in his visit to China. PRC people should forget about nationalism and embrace the best ideas from the techtrees other nations have to offer.

Well, yes, that would be nice and I agree with you but there are many countries that could use this advice.

 

[Headline]

I guess I "misled" muppet

Taiwanese retain or inherit most of culture from Japanese Han culture and Chin empire culture (ROC inherited from Chin), which is not the same as the Chinese culture in China now.

retain or inherit - What's up with that. Japanese also retain and inherit Chinese culture, so is Singapore.

The mainland China obtains the Soviet Union communist culture which forced them to abandon the Chinese culture.

forced - Mao did ask people to destory old values

abandon - Mao did ask people to abandon old values

I assure you

yes, I assure you

the real Chinese culture is in Taiwan right now, and it is not the same as the one in PPC

real - yes, the real Chinese culture is in Taiwan right now. I did not say PRC culture is not real ; )

and (compound sentence) the two cultures are not the same.

The Cultural Revolution destroyed a lot of the actual Chinese artifacts. However, since the PPC finally admit that what they did was wrong, they rebuild and imitate the old culture which dissapeared from mainland China.

support my remake statement

Taiwanese reserve the right to call themselves Taiwanese and not Chinese. PPC has no right to force Taiwanese to admit that they are Chinese.

Oh,,,There is a concept call "Freedom of Speech." A Taiwanese should be able to call themselves Taiwanese and not Chinese without the interference of PRC government (PRC's "predictable" threats to invade Taiwan can serious interfere with the rights of Taiwanese). If you never heard of the term, that's okay.

Yes, Taiwanese and Chinese have the same spoken language and the same recongized history, but they are not the same. One is the actually remained culture, the other is remakes. Remakes is never the same as the original one.

One - Present ROC culture.
Other - Present PRC culture.
remained - yes, war can severely destory cultures.
remakes - Huge percent of cultural artifacts and lifestyle were lost in the past 100 years. PRC remakes them.

For sake of argument, communism has cultural influence, but democracy does not

For sake of argument, read my other post.

therefore, is not "Real" Chinese culture

OH!!!! where is the "therefore" come from???? you own assumption???? I can see why. PRC people assume ROC dissapeared, so there is only one Chinese government in the world.

Real" Chinese culture is in Taiwan, though Taiwan will never admit it is Chinese. Taiwan culture is a combination of old Chinese, and Japanese culture. Agreed. Therefore Real Chinese culture is a combination of "old" Chinese and "Japanese" culture. Brilliant!

Therefore again?? your assumption is wrong and now your conclusion is worse.

Real - I explained
Never - Your false assumption. I talked about it in previous post.

does this make sense???
You are real. Your are an ass. "Therefore," you are a real ass.

Agreed

No, I don't agree with you.

Common language, history, gene pool, values, and festivities; however, are not nearly as culturally influential as communism, democracy, or Bushido.

How about FaLenGon? (a taoist remake)
sound like the PRC (communism) doesn't ban festivities.
People in the Tianmen were having a huge festivity. Some guns will help people digest better.

English and US----> Common language
history----> Homo Sapiens have history dated back to several million years (app huge round off). Plants and animals shared common history back to several.......
gene pool - I guess Chinese will have to unite with worms and flies.

Bushido (Teaching people how to use sword) sounds like something that will disrupt the society of PRC. BAN!!!!

I agree with everything. Please don't embarass me by making me contradict myself again.

I agree with everything. Please don't embarass me by using my stupid sarcasm. Please don't criticize those who agree with me.

 

[Evie]

Headline, you completely missed the point of the post you answered to.

I will sum it up for you in nice, clear sentences.

1-YOU said Taiwanesse culture was very influenced by Japan.
2-YOU said Taiwanesse culture was the real Chinesse culture.

Therefore the real Chinesse culture is extremly influenced by Japan, and Bushido (that's not "How to use swords", btw, that's the warrior code - how samurai warriors were expected to act. Baka).

That's what you said. Don't accuse that guy of drawing links where there aren't - THERE IS A LINK there. A nice, obvious one that only blind nationalism can prevent you from seeing. If you state that "This shape is green" and, talking about the same shape, say "This shape is a circle", then the shape is a Green Circle.

If you say "Taiwanesse culture is heavily influenced by Japan." And "Taiwanesse culture is the real chinesse culture", then there is NO WAY for you to back out of the following claim :

"The real chineses culture is heavily influenced by Japan."

As for Chinesse culture being wiped out in PRC by Mao and co, I refer you to Vrylakas' post about communist effectivenes at the so-called "cultural wipe-out".

 

[muppet]

Parody 101:
Emphasis Added
Warning: Grossly off-topic.
Warning: Sensitive viewers skip this post.
Warning: Body is funnier than conclusion. Conclusion is more Paradox than body.

Headline March 7, 2002, 5:15PM PST

Soveit style include:
Massive propaganda
Intense belief that they are the best (We will bury you)
Centralized government
Dictatorship in the party (this is getting better now in PRC)
No freedom of speech and rights
No religions
and more

One can see that this is part of culture in PRC now

There is no shame in admitting one has the culture influence of a foreign culture.

Massive Propoganda
Intense Belief that they are the best (we will bury you)
The Senate, having been drawn to its attention that propoganda, feelings of grandeur and excellence, and national pride are exclusively the domain of Soviet culture, have launched multiple investigation committies to expedite corrective actions:

The American flag on the moon shall be removed.
Organizers of the Utah Olympics to be brought before an inquest to answer to charges related to openning ceremony.
Steel tarrifs will be revoked. America is not facing subsidized foreign steel. We are simply hopeless. - Department of International Affairs.
Director of 'Armageddon' to face disciplinary action.
Producers of 'Pearl Harbor' to be brought before Supreme Court.
"USA! USA!" by American citizens in international events shall be punished by pain of expatriatization.
"Be All You Can Be. Join The Army", will be replaced by, "Only loser commies that can't find real jobs join the army"
"US Marines", replaced with, "loser commies can't find real jobs, pretend to be good as army, come join us"
The Star Spangled Banner will be renamed: America, Humble Russian Origins, not to be confused with soviet commie.
New lyrics purported to include: Thank You Russia, France, and everyone else in Europe for 'liberating' us.

Humble Moments in History that could have been:

Armagedon, a Disney production, featuring, the Russian space station, and an international space crew saving Denver from certain doom.
Pearl Harbor. Hollywood produces documentary hilighting the impact of the A-bomb on Japanese civilians because America was too woosy to fight like a man.
"We will go to the moon. We will go to the moon... not because it is easy... Because we lost the space race" -JFK
"You are with us, or gee uhm... we like you anyways" -GW Bush.
"You can Run. You can hide. We can't find you" -D Rumsfeld.

Centralized government
Massive reforms announced since the realization that centralized government is a soviet invention:

The CIA will be unsovietized. The varied and newly formed (D)ecentralized (I)ntelligence (A)gency portfolio limited to intelligence investigations directed at local hackers.

The FBI, like the CIA also to be decentralized. (C)ommunity (B)ureau of (I)nvestigations now investigating of missing cat files in consistent with regionalized jurisdiction.

National military to be disbanded, F15's and AEGIS Cruisers to be divided democratically among all states, including states without coastal access.

The NYPD now exclusively responsible for bringing perpetrator of WTC attack to justice. Good Luck. May god be with you.

Attacker of Pentagon safe. Pentagon to be decentralized.

Dictatorship in the party (this is getting better now in PRC)
President Bush takes lead to unSovietize the United States of America:

Cultural Ministers of Parliamentary democracies voted unanimously that Canada has been absorbed by Soviet culture, "Sure, they say there are too many political parties in Canada, but we know the truth -- the Liberals always win.

In a related event at the summit of democratic Presidents around the world, GW Bush volunteered to be the first President of a democratic country to revoke the "Presidential Veto", citing Headline: It is culturally democratic, the opposite of soviet. We have learned from the Canadian example. We will not be a victim.


No freedom of speech and rights
Under direct orders by the President, all government departments shall right all wrongs to counter Soviet culture creep:

Al Qaida prisoners of war will be treated in accordance with the Geneva Convention.

Journalists can now report, "We can't find you. But we don't mind bombing civilians to flush you out".

Ultimatum issued to MIT has been retracted. MIT scientists may continue to criticize the NMD proposal without fear of reprisal from the US government. An apology to the science community is forthcoming.

Illegal immigrants also have rights, and are also free.
They have the right to work below minimum wage. They are free to leave.

Rodney King has lived a normal life.
Rodney is a free man. He has the right to be beaten by the state.

Protesters were not exactly attacked at WTO in Seattle.
WTO Protesters have the right to be gassed, beaten and arrested.
The Seattle police force remains free.

Customer is always right, he is free. Pimp is sometimes right, he is sometimes free.
Prostitute has no rights, and is never free.

OJ Simpson has rights, he is free. Anna Nicole-smith has rights, she is free, in her own way.


"As you can see, we are well underway to ridding ourselves of Soviet cultural influence. At least we were never religiously like those Soviets" - spokesman for the Whitehouse.

Agreed.

One can see that this is part of culture in USA now. Americans are also culturally Soviet -- have been too heavily influenced by Soviet culture. But, don't you think that religious freedom in America is sufficient grounds to justify an exception for America at least?

Edit: wrong time zone settings. yuck!