China

[tu_79]

I think that great works should not trigger WLTKD. They are usually not hard to achieve (luxuries, great merchants, buildings) anyways. But, even without trying, I'm getting +50 turns of WLTKD in every city.
I'd prefer to have a reason for looking after WLTKD instead of living in a permanent WLTKD.

I like mandate of heaven for great works and cities, with the extra food and culture. But instead of triggering WLTKD, it would be enough to get an extra bonus during WLTED. Maybe +15% great people and growth during WLTED. This will mix well with the great works effect, will introduce another timing strategy (make coincide mandate of heaven with WLTED for extra effect), and make Industrialism very valuable for China (purchasing great merchants).

 

[Stalker0]

I could actually go the other way. Take other the whole dynasty thing, and just accept that China has infinite WLTED. That in itself is a pretty amazing bonus, especially combined with the paper maker.

 

[Rekk]

So, just remove all of the things that start WLTED, and just bake a permanent WLTED into the UA?

 

[Gazebo]

China’s doing fine. It doesn’t need a rework.

G

 

[Stalker0]

China’s doing fine. It doesn’t need a rework.

G

I personally agree, I was just suggesting options if you wanted to nerf China further

 

[Rekk]

It's sort of how before the golden age nerf, one was able to get permanent golden ages without really trying. What's the point of all these mechanics to get WLTED if the result is a permanent WLTED?

 

[pineappledan]

There still exists a permanent GA civ (Aztec). I don’t know why a permanent wltkd civ is necessarily a bad idea. Wltkd’s aren’t as strong

 

[Gazebo]

It's sort of how before the golden age nerf, one was able to get permanent golden ages without really trying. What's the point of all these mechanics to get WLTED if the result is a permanent WLTED?

Because without them...you wouldn't have a permanent WLTED?

G

 

[tu_79]

Not true. You can have an almost permanent WLTKD if you really focus on it. It takes a lot of trading and making CS allies, but it is doable.

I mean, there's no sense of achievement in triggered WLTKD. They could as well be permanent and not fool me into thinking that I need to focus on great works spamming.

A quick fix could be simply to reduce the length of the WLTKD to half the turns.

 

[Rekk]

Because without them...you wouldn't have a permanent WLTED?

G

Why spend all the effort with those mechanics in the UA when you could just say that every founded city starts with a WLTED that lasts 1000 turns (or something to the same effect)? The UA is less obfuscated and the result is nearly the same.

 

[Gazebo]

Why spend all the effort with those mechanics in the UA when you could just say that every founded city starts with a WLTED that lasts 1000 turns (or something to the same effect)? The UA is less obfuscated and the result is nearly the same.

You still have to do the things to get the WLTEDs.

G

 

[Rekk]

You still have to do the things to get the WLTEDs.

G

But, even without trying, I'm getting +50 turns of WLTKD in every city.

I take this to mean that he's getting permanent WLTKD without particularly pursuing the UA in that regard.

 

[Gazebo]

I take this to mean that he's getting permanent WLTKD without particularly pursuing the UA in that regard.

'Try' is a relative term.

G

 

[tu_79]

Ok, I confess. I took Artistry after Progress. But in my disregard, I let city manager to pick my specialists, and I fear I'm underproducing them. So, actually I wasn't trying hard to make more great works.

 

[Stalker0]

China’s permanent WLTED is not bad. It just means things like GMs are less important...or maybe you go for more towns.

The great works are useful to get the perks of WLTED faster. And once you have it permanent...well than the get great works for the same reason anyone would get great works

That’s not a flaw.

 

[Gazebo]

Ok, I confess. I took Artistry after Progress. But in my disregard, I let city manager to pick my specialists, and I fear I'm underproducing them. So, actually I wasn't trying hard to make more great works.

You monster.

 

[chicorbeef]

How long is the duration of WLTED from making a Great Work? I say we just make it 6 turns like founding cities, if it isn't already.

 

[Wexmajor]

I don't think I'm good enough at this game to normally comment on balance. I'm pretty much just graduated from Prince to King. In my first game as China, on King, I'm snowballing harder than I ever have in any game. At around 200 turns on Standard speed, I have almost three times as much culture per turn as the runner-up, and twice as much science per turn as the runner-up. I don't understand how that's even possible. I did get lucky with two natural wonders and the Goddess of Nature pantheon at the start of the game, but I wouldn't expect that to have such an absurd effect by itself. Just throwing that out there, in case it's of any value.

 

[tu_79]

I don't think I'm good enough at this game to normally comment on balance. I'm pretty much just graduated from Prince to King. In my first game as China, on King, I'm snowballing harder than I ever have in any game. At around 200 turns on Standard speed, I have almost three times as much culture per turn as the runner-up, and twice as much science per turn as the runner-up. I don't understand how that's even possible. I did get lucky with two natural wonders and the Goddess of Nature pantheon at the start of the game, but I wouldn't expect that to have such an absurd effect by itself. Just throwing that out there, in case it's of any value.

Wide China is very strong, but her enemies are plenty. (You need to be expansive, and that angers your neighbours). In modern age, your power falls down, especially if you have to fight in many fronts.

Have you tried other early bloomers like Ethiopia and Carthage?

 

[Wexmajor]

Wide China is very strong, but her enemies are plenty. (You need to be expansive, and that angers your neighbours). In modern age, your power falls down, especially if you have to fight in many fronts.

Have you tried other early bloomers like Ethiopia and Carthage?

In that Chinese game I already beat the hell out of my neighbors. That's part of why I'm concerned China is a bit overtuned, I was fighting Napoleon the entire time and still came out as the clear leader in every category. The only way I could possibly lose that game is if the civs on the other continent put a lot of effort into attacking me, which they don't seem inclined to do.

I coincidentally just started a game as Ethiopia with the same settings and it's not going nearly as well.