Chivalry

[Formaldehyde]

I guess for you then absent of chivarly is misogyny?

No, I don't think there is a relationship at all between chivalry and misogyny.

OTOH the "princess syndrome"?

 

[Traitorfish]

After reading this thread I will never, NEVER open a door for a woman.

Clearly the white male power structure brainwashed me into believing this was a kind act, but in fact it was evil and misorgynistic!

You should probably read some of the things I've actually written, rather than just defaulting to a half-understood caricature of... Well, whatever that was meant to be.

Anyway, why would you hold the door open for a woman? She's not going to pay you, so it's not in your rational self-interest! What are you, a communist?

^ @ Traitorfish: What Quackers said exemplifies my original point. If people take that attitude, chivalry is probably beneficial for such people.

Quackers is either mistaken in the belief that he has made an insightful point, or is trolling. I don't think he's the sort we have to worry about.

No, I don't think there is a relationship at all between chivalry and misogyny.

You don't believe that the Western culture which girth birth to chivalry was misogynistic?

(Keeping in mind that "misogyny" does not necessarily refer to hatred of women, but to contempt.)

 

[spryllino]

Quackers is either mistaken in the belief that he has made an insightful point, or is trolling. I don't think he's the sort we have to worry about.

Well, I rather think he is sort we have to worry about, or the sort of person he was pretending to be when he was trolling is sort we have to worry about, i.e. one of the many people who probably wouldn't act with respect towards women if they didn't possess a deluded sense of chivalry.

 

[Formaldehyde]

You don't believe that the Western culture which girth birth to chivalry was misogynistic?

(Keeping in mind that "misogyny" does not necessarily refer to hatred of women, but to contempt.)

I think that is an altogether different issue. I really don't think it is due to chivalry that women are second class citizens. I would certainly blame religion and culture far more than I would the notion of acting nobly and with honor when possible.

You might even say that most women are inherently chivalrous while most men typically have to work at it.

 

[Lillefix]

The muslims on the other hand, they know how to respect women:

"We are the ones who respect women and honor women ... not you," he said.

"You use women as an animal. She has one husband and hundreds of thousands of boyfriends," he added. "You don't know who is the father of your sons because of the way you respect women."

Now there's real medieval chivalry.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...f-supporting-israel-hamas-tells-west-1.321620

 

[Traitorfish]

Well, I rather think he is sort we have to worry about, or the sort of person he was pretending to be when he was trolling is sort we have to worry about, i.e. one of the many people who probably wouldn't act with respect towards women if they didn't possess a deluded sense of chivalry.

That is a fair point, I will admit. I suppose there is a balance to be struck somewhere between the retention of chivalry as a social institution, and evolution past it as a personal standard. One might call it the retention of "passive chivalry" and the abandonment of "active chivalry", if that makes sense.

I think that is an altogether different issue. I really don't think it is due to chivalry that women are second class citizens. I would certainly blame religion and culture far more than I would the notion of acting nobly and with honor when possible.

I should probably re-iterate that it is not the mere fact of chivalry itself that is misogynistic, patronising as it may be, but the fact that is born out of just such cultures, and so is misogynistic as an institution, and perpetuates, unwittingly or not, the "soft" misogyny of traditional sexism.
That's certainly not to say that all displays of chivalry are misogynistic, in fact, quite the opposite- as I mentioned, many displays of chivalry are sincere attempts to express respect for women (if, perhaps, sometimes marred by a degree of unwitting, internalised sexism- and I include myself in that!) using the limited social toolset that men inherit from a misogynistic history.

You might even say that most women are inherently chivalrous while most men typically have to work at it.

Now that is a contentious point if there ever was one.

 

[JohnRM]

Misogyny is better defined as contempt for women, and Traitorfish was arguing that chivalry was a form of misogyny anyway.

What is it called when you have contempt for everyone?

 

[Dachs]

Trite.

 

[Karalysia]

Misantrophy.

 

[JohnRM]

Trite.

No...that isn't it.

Misantrophy.

BINGO! Thanks!

 

[holy king]

I don't see the problem with it but then, i'm not a woman.

if someone you are walking along with suddenly sped up before you two reach a door, opened it and held it open for you to walk through, you wouldnt feel like wtf, i could have, you know, walked through the door myself?

 

[Formaldehyde]

The muslims on the other hand, they know how to respect women...

Based on the statement of one person, you are going to label all Muslims as believing the same thing?

Now there's real medieval chivalry.

You are right. This is a truly despicable statement which nobody could possibly agree with nowadays:

Don't you care about the assassination of people here?

What a truly backward people to care about the ethics of deliberately assassinating people instead of arresting them and trying them in a court of law for their supposed crimes.

I should probably re-iterate that it is not the mere fact of chivalry itself that is misogynistic, patronising as it may be, but the fact that is born out of just such cultures, and so is misogynistic as an institution, and perpetuates, unwittingly or not, the "soft" misogyny of traditional sexism.

That is true in the context of the way that some treat chivalry. I prefer the quotation I cited above.

 

[Lillefix]

Based on the statement of one person, you are going to label all Muslims as believing the same thing?

Of course not. But he used the word "we" and strongly implied that he meant all muslims. So I used his meaning of the words(us and them mentality), when I commented it. I suppose I could have added an "apparantly" in order to make the sentence less ambiguous.